Politics Is it time for the west to assemble an army and kick Putin out of Ukraine?

[DrZoidberg]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

 

[Harry Bosch]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

 

[Jayjay]

I have no idea what's going on in Winnie the Pooh's head right now. He might think that after western response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it's too risky to attack Taiwan, lest he get the same treatment. But he might just as well think that because US and the West are already so embroiled in Ukraine that now is the time to strike.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think it's more a matter of distraction from domestic issues. They're still pretending they can control Omicron and they're having bank system issues after a major scam causing people not to trust the banks.

 

[laughing dog]

Is there anything else besides sending aid (goods or cash) you want the US government to do?

Work to maintain the collective effort to aid Ukraine]

No, the default position is that an act is unconstitutional unless shown otherwise. Only someone who hates the 10th amendment could say the opposite.

Since thst is not how reality works, only someone who is delusional would claim otherwise.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

No, the default position is that an act is unconstitutional unless shown otherwise. Only someone who hates the 10th amendment could say the opposite.

Since thst is not how reality works, only someone who is delusional would claim otherwise.

That IS how the constitution is written.

There are many cases where one side is defaulted to unless demonstrated otherwise. The default position in a criminal trial is "innocent until proven guilty". The nature of science is that no theory is ever proven, it is either disproven or not disproven. The nature of making a claim in a debate is that the burden of proof is on the claimant to support the claim and absent said proof the claim is considered unsupported and irrelevant.

But that's all realty, much to your dismay. Once again you demonstrate your disdain for the 10th Amendment.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

 

[laughing dog]

No, the default position is that an act is unconstitutional unless shown otherwise. Only someone who hates the 10th amendment could say the opposite.

Since thst is not how reality works, only someone who is delusional would claim otherwise.

That IS how the constitution is written.

There are many cases where one side is defaulted to unless demonstrated otherwise. The default position in a criminal trial is "innocent until proven guilty". The nature of science is that no theory is ever proven, it is either disproven or not disproven. The nature of making a claim in a debate is that the burden of proof is on the claimant to support the claim and absent said proof the claim is considered unsupported and irrelevant.

But that's all realty, much to your dismay. Once again you demonstrate your disdain for the 10th Amendment.

In reality, the status quo prevails until there is a ruling otherwise. I get that appeals to reality- based reasoning is hard for libertarians to grasp, but that is reality no matter how much you don’t like it.

 

[IIDB Staff]

Address the topic, not the person.
Ad hominem attacks are against the TOU and degrade the discussion.

If you have something interesting or productive to contribute on topic, press “post reply.”
But if you look and realize you’re just insulting another member, consider editing, or delete and use the “back” button.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

I don't exactly disagree. My only point is that it's Ukrainian citizens that are dying now, no Taiwanese (yet). Maybe we should focus on one problem at a time. But it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

 

[Elixir]

it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

No shit.
Considering the huge expense of the tantrum they threw about it, it would be tempting to bankrupt them by sending her over every few days.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[ZiprHead]

Claims of new Russian atrocity after gruesome image appears to show the head of a Ukrainian POW stuck on a pole

The disturbing image from the Russian-occupied Ukrainian town of Popasna follows an incident where a prison was bombed, killing 53 Ukrainian POWS.

www.businessinsider.com

A new image posted by a Ukrainian official appears to show the skull of a Ukrainian prisoner of war placed on a stick outside a building in the eastern Ukrainian town of Popasna, which was captured by Russian forces in May.

Serhiy Haidai, the governor of Ukrainian Luhansk province, shared the unsettling photo on his Telegram channel. Insider has not been able to verify the image independently.

Geolocation tools suggest it is genuine, said The Guardian, and the gruesome photo was taken in late July, not far from the center of Popasna.

Near the head are the remains of a decapitated body, in uniform without its hands. Two hands have been placed on metal spikes on a fence on either side of the head, a video shows, reported The Guardian.

Allegations of the new atrocity follow the shelling of the Olenivka prison housing Ukrainian prisoners of war. Russia and Ukraine blaming the other party.

Photos from the shelling show burnt corpses and skeletal remains.

According to a prisoner recently released from the Olenivka detention center outside Donetsk, Ukrainian POWs are tortured and murdered.

"We heard their cries," Anna Vorosheva told The Guardian. "They played loud music to cover the screams. Torture happened all the time."

Soon after the bombing, a video circulated on social media showing a Russian soldier castrating a Ukrainian prisoner.

A Ukrainian MP told Insider, "I wish I could turn back time and not see this video. But we knew that this was happening in the occupied territories. The Russian military rapes, mutilates, and kills Ukrainians, both civilians, and POWs."

Responding to the footage, Marie Struthers, Amnesty International's Director for Eastern Europe and Central Asia, said, "This horrific assault is yet another apparent example of complete disregard for human life and dignity in Ukraine committed by Russian forces."

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

I don't exactly disagree. My only point is that it's Ukrainian citizens that are dying now, no Taiwanese (yet). Maybe we should focus on one problem at a time. But it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

View attachment 39752

This is a complex problem. The textbook definition of complexity.

Complexity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China's actions will depend upon USA's actions in Ukraine.

If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan.

For USA the choice is easy. Deploying troops is incredibly expensive. An expense that lands on US taxpayers and risks making the president unpopular. By not deploying troops American taxpayers is able to buy more cheap shit from China they don't need = happiness.

If there's two equally bad choices, where one choice is cheap and the other is expensive, logic dictates that the cheaper choice is preferred.

I do wish European countries would grow some balls and just deploy troops in Ukraine already. Sitting idly by while Ukraine gets gobbled up by the local bully, is not a good look for us. Even if Ukraine ultimately wins, it's still not a good look for us.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

I don't exactly disagree. My only point is that it's Ukrainian citizens that are dying now, no Taiwanese (yet). Maybe we should focus on one problem at a time. But it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

View attachment 39752

This is a complex problem. The textbook definition of complexity.

Complexity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China's actions will depend upon USA's actions in Ukraine.

If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan.

For USA the choice is easy. Deploying troops is incredibly expensive. An expense that lands on US taxpayers and risks making the president unpopular. By not deploying troops American taxpayers is able to buy more cheap shit from China they don't need = happiness.

If there's two equally bad choices, where one choice is cheap and the other is expensive, logic dictates that the cheaper choice is preferred.

I do wish European countries would grow some balls and just deploy troops in Ukraine already. Sitting idly by while Ukraine gets gobbled up by the local bully, is not a good look for us. Even if Ukraine ultimately wins, it's still not a good look for us.

Or maybe an EU visit to Taiwan. Show China that it controls neither its first or second largest trading partner.

It's democracy versus authoritarianism.

Xi Jinping sees the US as who he needs to beat. That ultimately the EU will sit on the sidelines and go along to get along.

If EU stands up in solidarity with the US then Xi has to make a decision: economic prosperity or nationalism.
He now has pro-western governments in South Korea (wants more THAADs), Japan (wants to arm up), and Philippines.

 

[Elixir]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

I don't exactly disagree. My only point is that it's Ukrainian citizens that are dying now, no Taiwanese (yet). Maybe we should focus on one problem at a time. But it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

View attachment 39752

This is a complex problem. The textbook definition of complexity.

Complexity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China's actions will depend upon USA's actions in Ukraine.

If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan.

For USA the choice is easy. Deploying troops is incredibly expensive. An expense that lands on US taxpayers and risks making the president unpopular. By not deploying troops American taxpayers is able to buy more cheap shit from China they don't need = happiness.

If there's two equally bad choices, where one choice is cheap and the other is expensive, logic dictates that the cheaper choice is preferred.

I do wish European countries would grow some balls and just deploy troops in Ukraine already. Sitting idly by while Ukraine gets gobbled up by the local bully, is not a good look for us. Even if Ukraine ultimately wins, it's still not a good look for us.

Bullshit.
This kind of false dichotomy is what drives leaders to make harmful - even suicidal - choices.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now China is making plays against Taiwan. This is perhaps not the best time to put all the eggs in the Ukraine basket

Yea, I'm a huge supporter of Taiwan. But I don't think that Pelosi's move was wise at this time. I think that we need the world united against Russia as much as possible. And Pelosi's move is very mean to China. Bullies get upset when others are mean to them.

Meh. China needs to know USA still has balls. This was all good

I don't exactly disagree. My only point is that it's Ukrainian citizens that are dying now, no Taiwanese (yet). Maybe we should focus on one problem at a time. But it is funny how riled up the Chinese get over Pelosi!

View attachment 39752

This is a complex problem. The textbook definition of complexity.

Complexity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China's actions will depend upon USA's actions in Ukraine.

If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan.

For USA the choice is easy. Deploying troops is incredibly expensive. An expense that lands on US taxpayers and risks making the president unpopular. By not deploying troops American taxpayers is able to buy more cheap shit from China they don't need = happiness.

If there's two equally bad choices, where one choice is cheap and the other is expensive, logic dictates that the cheaper choice is preferred.

I do wish European countries would grow some balls and just deploy troops in Ukraine already. Sitting idly by while Ukraine gets gobbled up by the local bully, is not a good look for us. Even if Ukraine ultimately wins, it's still not a good look for us.

Bullshit.
This kind of false dichotomy is what drives leaders to make harmful - even suicidal - choices.

I would love to hear your arguments

 

[DrZoidberg]

Right now China is very dangerous. They are facing a huge housing debt crisis dwarfing the 2008 housing crash of USA. There's rioting in the streets. I'm sure Xi Jinping is looking at any options to distract his people. It's in times like this that autocrats normally declare war.

 

[Elixir]

I would love to hear your arguments

YOU made the positive claims - support them if you can:

"If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan."

Both hypothetical outcomes are of course possible, but you have shown no causal relationship that requires that it works out exactly that way.
In fact it is a real reach to suppose the conditions wherein ANY American troops would be committed to the ground in Ukraine.
False dichotomy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I would love to hear your arguments

YOU made the positive claims - support them if you can:

I don't think that is how it works.

"If USA keeps troops out of Ukraine, then USA is able to counter Chinese aggression on Taiwan. Russia gets Ukraine. China doesn't get Taiwan.

If USA deploys enough troops in Ukraine to push Russia out, then Chinese is free to move on Taiwan. Russia doesn't get Ukraine. China gets Taiwan."

Both hypothetical outcomes are of course possible, but you have shown no causal relationship that requires that it works out exactly that way.

I think there is. Both China and Russia are aggressive and are constantly looking for an opening to grab land from their neighbors. The ONLY thing stopping them is a credible threat. Right now the only army either Russia or China is afraid of is the American army. In this environment American choices dictate the actions of both Russia and Ukraine. I think the only reason Russia is attacking Ukraine now is Obama's pathetic response to Russia's earlier Crimean land grab. I think that's all the evidence we need of the realities of international diplomacy right now.

In fact it is a real reach to suppose the conditions wherein ANY American troops would be committed to the ground in Ukraine.
False dichotomy.

I agree with you. I think that's why Putin chose to attack Ukraine. He, correctly, gambled that USA wouldn't have the balls. Europe certainly doesn't.

Today's political map is a utopia for autocratic tyrants. The free world seems to have lost their will to fight for freedom. Too bad for freedom.