Is nothing only perceived as blackness, or is it actually blackness?

[DBT]

It boils down to, 'Nothing' cannot be perceived or experienced. Death may be an example of Nothing.

 

[untermensche]

Numbers seems like a different discussion. Might as well be talking about the stains on my wall that represent nothing, as opposed to the paintings on my wall that represent something. They’re still all somethings. Zero does not represent an nonexistent emtpy void. It’s just a quantity of no value, just as the stains are images of no particular thing (there’s no value to attribute to them).

If I have zero apples in my hand do I have some quantity of apples in my hand or do I have no quantity of apples in my hand?

 

[Juma]

Sure, but that's true for ALL instances of 'nothing'. Either you are talking about 'nothing' in the context of a wider 'something' - zero in the context of numbers, meaningless stains in the context of paintings, blackness in the context of light - or you are discussing 'nothing' in the absence of context, which is simply an absurdity; there cannot be both nothing and something in the same universe, because as soon as there is anything, the nothing is given context, rendering it something.

The only properties I see worth discussing about what something is is its intrinsic properties. Context is not an intrinsic property of nothing.

It's like the old 'irresistible force' vs 'immovable object' discussion - you can talk about it, but it's all absurd. Physics tells us that there are no immovable objects; and that all forces are irresistible - the discussion of forces that can be resisted, or of objects that can't be moved, is a reasonable as discussing married bachelors, or how one might perceive nothing. It's possible, in English, to express absurd propositions; but it's not meaningful to do so.

But we have to end this with the best logic. Isn't the best logic the logic of deduction? So if we define nothing as something that does not exist in any conceivable way, then it does not exist in any conceivable way.

But then there is no nothing.

 

[Lion IRC]

It boils down to, 'Nothing' cannot be perceived or experienced. Death may be an example of Nothing.

Kerry Packer, a one-time media magnate and former atheist had an after death experience.

He described it as feeling like nothingness.

He reportedly said…’there’s [effing] nothing.

 

[abaddon]

Numbers seems like a different discussion. Might as well be talking about the stains on my wall that represent nothing, as opposed to the paintings on my wall that represent something. They’re still all somethings. Zero does not represent an nonexistent emtpy void. It’s just a quantity of no value, just as the stains are images of no particular thing (there’s no value to attribute to them).

If I have zero apples in my hand do I have some quantity of apples in my hand or do I have no quantity of apples in my hand?

Yes. You have zero quantity of apples in your hand because there’s something else in your hand. Thus illustrating that “zero” doesn’t mean there’s nothing there. It's just an input into equations, not a name for anything in reality. I'm approaching this with an interest in what's real, not in human signs and metaphors.

 

[untermensche]

If I have zero apples in my hand do I have some quantity of apples in my hand or do I have no quantity of apples in my hand?

Yes. You have zero quantity of apples in your hand because there’s something else in your hand. Thus illustrating that “zero” doesn’t mean there’s nothing there. It's just an input into equations, not a name for anything in reality. I'm approaching this with an interest in what's real, not in human signs and metaphors.

Some of this is just the flexibility of language.

To say one has a quantity of something usually implies one has at least something.

But language is far stranger than that.

We can abstractly say that nothing is a quantity. But normally we wouldn't say we found some quantity of gold if we found no gold. And if we do this we stretch the definition of quantity.

But in the more defined language of mathematics the flexibility is reduced.

So in the case of 6 + 0 = 6 the zero represents "nothingness", not a something.

 

[fromderinside]

It boils down to, 'Nothing' cannot be perceived or experienced. Death may be an example of Nothing.

So should we delay announcement of death to when nervous activity stops in the being?

We know there is nothing since we derive methods of recording it like there is no energy at point A at time t. For instance, situations exist when there is no motion, the laws of thermodynamics were developed on such.

 

[4321lynx]

Some of this is just the flexibility of language.

To say one has a quantity of something usually implies one has at least something.

But language is far stranger than that.

We can abstractly say that nothing is a quantity. But normally we wouldn't say we found some quantity of gold if we found no gold. And if we do this we stretch the definition of quantity.

As they regularly do in the Carribean when they say "My pockets are full of empty, mon".

 

[DBT]

It boils down to, 'Nothing' cannot be perceived or experienced. Death may be an example of Nothing.

So should we delay announcement of death to when nervous activity stops in the being?

We know there is nothing since we derive methods of recording it like there is no energy at point A at time t. For instance, situations exist when there is no motion, the laws of thermodynamics were developed on such.

There was a brain experiencing a Universe. Then, upon death, the cessation of brain activity, there is nothing.

 

[Juma]

Yes. You have zero quantity of apples in your hand because there’s something else in your hand. Thus illustrating that “zero” doesn’t mean there’s nothing there. It's just an input into equations, not a name for anything in reality. I'm approaching this with an interest in what's real, not in human signs and metaphors.

Some of this is just the flexibility of language.

To say one has a quantity of something usually implies one has at least something.

But language is far stranger than that.

We can abstractly say that nothing is a quantity. But normally we wouldn't say we found some quantity of gold if we found no gold. And if we do this we stretch the definition of quantity.

But in the more defined language of mathematics the flexibility is reduced.

So in the case of 6 + 0 = 6 the zero represents "nothingness", not a something.

Quantity is an abstraction in itself. Something, nothing, they are all abstractions.

 

[DBT]

How is having an actual object in the hand, say a coin, an abstraction?

 

[fromderinside]

There was a brain experiencing a Universe. Then, upon death, the cessation of brain activity, there is nothing.

Heart stops. Death declared. Organized brain function often goes on for up to 15 minutes more. So when is death again?

Human dearth poor example for nothing.

 

[DBT]

There was a brain experiencing a Universe. Then, upon death, the cessation of brain activity, there is nothing.

Heart stops. Death declared. Organized brain function often goes on for up to 15 minutes more. So when is death again?

Human dearth poor example for nothing.

The end of conscious experience is the beginning of nothing in relation to the person, who once was but is now no more. Cells may be still firing unconsciously for a time but not necessarily generating conscious representation of the World and self.

 

[untermensche]

Some of this is just the flexibility of language.

To say one has a quantity of something usually implies one has at least something.

But language is far stranger than that.

We can abstractly say that nothing is a quantity. But normally we wouldn't say we found some quantity of gold if we found no gold. And if we do this we stretch the definition of quantity.

But in the more defined language of mathematics the flexibility is reduced.

So in the case of 6 + 0 = 6 the zero represents "nothingness", not a something.

Quantity is an abstraction in itself. Something, nothing, they are all abstractions.

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

 

[Juma]

How is having an actual object in the hand, say a coin, an abstraction?

There is some shiny stuff in you hand,
That is a coin is an abstraction.
That there is ome object in your hand (and not a new shiny part of your hand) is an abstraction. Etc

 

[Juma]

Quantity is an abstraction in itself. Something, nothing, they are all abstractions.

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

To assign a quantity to anything, is an abstraction.

Our entire experience of the world is an abstraction.

 

[untermensche]

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

To assign a quantity to anything, is an abstraction.

Our entire experience of the world is an abstraction.

It is not an abstraction to say I have three distinct yet similar apples in my hand.

It is pure observation.

The distinctness and the similarity are clearly seen.

 

[Juma]

To assign a quantity to anything, is an abstraction.

Our entire experience of the world is an abstraction.

It is not an abstraction to say I have three distinct yet similar apples in my hand.

It is pure observation.

The distinctness and the similarity are clearly seen.

How is the property "3" transferred from the objects to your mind?

 

[untermensche]

It is not an abstraction to say I have three distinct yet similar apples in my hand.

It is pure observation.

The distinctness and the similarity are clearly seen.

How is the property "3" transferred from the objects to your mind?

That is something else.

That is a symbol for an observed quantity.

The symbol is an abstract representation.

The quantity is observed in many ways on the human scale.

 

[DBT]

Quantity is an abstraction in itself. Something, nothing, they are all abstractions.

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.