Is nothing only perceived as blackness, or is it actually blackness?

[Juma]

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.

Who said anything of the coin object not being objective?

Thing is: objects are abstractions. Not what the object abstsction represents, thst is something real, but the abstraction of som part of reslity being an object.

 

[Juma]

How is the property "3" transferred from the objects to your mind?

That is something else.

That is a symbol for an observed quantity.

The symbol is an abstract representation.

The quantity is observed in many ways on the human scale.

It is a human, in this case, that here represents parts ot the behaviour of reality as an object.

 

[untermensche]

Quantity is an observation.

To assign a quantity to nothing is an abstraction.

Which is why there were some cultures that had numbers but did not have zero.

They could see, but they could not abstract.

The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.

But the idea of "banana" is not abstract.

It is just a label of something that can be experienced.

So some quantity of bananas can be recognized without any abstraction.

And a hungry ape with no bananas will clearly recognize when another ape has many.

 

[ryan]

The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.

Who said anything of the coin object not being objective?

Thing is: objects are abstractions.

You mean "the idea of an object" right? The object itself is not an abstraction.

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The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.

But the idea of "banana" is not abstract.

That's like the definition of abstract. What's going on here?

Are you thinking of so called abstract objects like the boogie man or something?

 

[untermensche]

That is something else.

That is a symbol for an observed quantity.

The symbol is an abstract representation.

The quantity is observed in many ways on the human scale.

It is a human, in this case, that here represents parts ot the behaviour of reality as an object.

It is apparent.

It takes no tricks.

Many things appear as distinct entities to humans.

 

[untermensche]

But the idea of "banana" is not abstract.

That's like the definition of abstract. What's going on here?

Are you thinking of so called abstract objects like the boogie man or something?

Labeling an object is not an abstraction.

 

[Juma]

It is a human, in this case, that here represents parts ot the behaviour of reality as an object.

It is apparent.

It takes no tricks.

Many things appear as distinct entities to humans.

Yes, the human brain/nervous system is good at making abstract models by using the data coming in through the senses.

 

[ryan]

That's like the definition of abstract. What's going on here?

Are you thinking of so called abstract objects like the boogie man or something?

Labeling an object is not an abstraction.

Okay, but the label has to go beyond the "mind" and into "physical" form. But if the label is only in your head as an idea, then it is definitely abstract.

Oxford Dictionary
Abstraction: "Something which exists only as an idea" http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/abstraction

 

[untermensche]

Labeling an object is not an abstraction.

Okay, but the label has to go beyond the "mind" and into "physical" form. But if the label is only in your head as an idea, then it is definitely abstract.

Oxford Dictionary
Abstraction: "Something which exists only as an idea" http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/abstraction

A banana is something clearly recognized not just an idea.

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It is apparent.

It takes no tricks.

Many things appear as distinct entities to humans.

Yes, the human brain/nervous system is good at making abstract models by using the data coming in through the senses.

That's the brain doing something behind the scenes.

For the human, distinctions are clear in many cases.

 

[ryan]

Okay, but the label has to go beyond the "mind" and into "physical" form. But if the label is only in your head as an idea, then it is definitely abstract.

Oxford Dictionary
Abstraction: "Something which exists only as an idea" http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/abstraction

A banana is something clearly recognized not just an idea.

Here's a more relevant definition.

"Abstraction: the act of obtaining or removing something from a source : the act of abstracting something"

Merriam-Websters, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abstraction


So, you can have an abstraction of a banana even though the banana actually exists.

An idea/thought/conception/mental image/memory/experience/ etc are abstractions, but the actual object is not.

 

[DBT]

You mean "the idea of an object" right? The object itself is not an abstraction.

That's right, the object has characteristics that do not change in relation to someone's perception of it.

 

[DBT]

The idea of a 'coin' or 'money' and so on is abstract, but the object itself, shape, mass, composition, etc, is objective.

But the idea of "banana" is not abstract.

It is just a label of something that can be experienced.

So some quantity of bananas can be recognized without any abstraction.

And a hungry ape with no bananas will clearly recognize when another ape has many.

That's what I'm saying. The object is what it is regardless of the observers ideas, conceptions or beliefs.

 

[untermensche]

But the idea of "banana" is not abstract.

It is just a label of something that can be experienced.

So some quantity of bananas can be recognized without any abstraction.

And a hungry ape with no bananas will clearly recognize when another ape has many.

That's what I'm saying. The object is what it is regardless of the observers ideas, conceptions or beliefs.

And there are some objects, like bananas, that can easily be recognized as distinct yet similar objects.

So the mere sight of them is translated into quantity.

By the human brain.

It takes no effort on the part of the human to recognize this quantity. If it is small enough.

And giving a label to it is just giving a label to something apparent. No different from giving a label to banana.

It is not conceptualization to give a label to banana or to give a label to five bananas. It is recognition.

Conceptualization comes in when you assign a symbol "5" to something apparent. Since "5" represents 5 perfectly similar entities not just closely similar.

 

[DBT]

That's what I'm saying. The object is what it is regardless of the observers ideas, conceptions or beliefs.

And there are some objects, like bananas, that can easily be recognized as distinct yet similar objects.

So the mere sight of them is translated into quantity.

By the human brain.

It takes no effort on the part of the human to recognize this quantity. If it is small enough.

And giving a label to it is just giving a label to something apparent. No different from giving a label to banana.

It is not conceptualization to give a label to banana or to give a label to five bananas. It is recognition.

Conceptualization comes in when you assign a symbol "5" to something apparent. Since "5" represents 5 perfectly similar entities not just closely similar.

Yes, recognition. A monkey sees the coin as an object of a certain shape and size, but is not aware of the abstract ideas and concepts that the coin as an object represents for its distant cousins.

 

[untermensche]

And there are some objects, like bananas, that can easily be recognized as distinct yet similar objects.

So the mere sight of them is translated into quantity.

By the human brain.

It takes no effort on the part of the human to recognize this quantity. If it is small enough.

And giving a label to it is just giving a label to something apparent. No different from giving a label to banana.

It is not conceptualization to give a label to banana or to give a label to five bananas. It is recognition.

Conceptualization comes in when you assign a symbol "5" to something apparent. Since "5" represents 5 perfectly similar entities not just closely similar.

Yes, recognition. A monkey sees the coin as an object of a certain shape and size, but is not aware of the abstract ideas and concepts that the coin as an object represents for its distant cousins.

That's a monkey.

But a human can just recognize a coin without any abstraction necessary.

Money is an abstract concept but coins are not abstract objects, they are clearly recognized objects that have an arbitrary "value" attached to them. And for the viewer attaching a value to a coin is no different from attaching a label to an object. Saying the nickel is worth 5 cents is not an abstraction.

 

[DBT]

And for the viewer attaching a value to a coin is no different from attaching a label to an object. Saying the nickel is worth 5 cents is not an abstraction.

It's a concept that's specific to an observer and his or her nation, tribe or group, but not necessarily recognized by all observers.

 

[untermensche]

And for the viewer attaching a value to a coin is no different from attaching a label to an object. Saying the nickel is worth 5 cents is not an abstraction.

It's a concept that's specific to an observer and his or her nation, tribe or group, but not necessarily recognized by all observers.

It is arbitrary.

Like thinking a black cat is bad luck.

But it isn't an abstraction.

 

[DBT]

It's a concept that's specific to an observer and his or her nation, tribe or group, but not necessarily recognized by all observers.

It is arbitrary.

Like thinking a black cat is bad luck.

But it isn't an abstraction.

Depends on a given definition:

Concept:
1. an idea, esp an abstract idea: the concepts of biology.
2. (Philosophy) philosophy a general idea or notion that corresponds to some class of entities and that consists of the characteristic or essential features of the class
3. (Philosophy) philosophy
a. the conjunction of all the characteristic features of something
b. a theoretical construct within some theory
c. a directly intuited object of thought
d. the meaning of a predicate
4. (Automotive Engineering) (modifier) (of a product, esp a car) created as an exercise to demonstrate the technical skills and imagination of the designers, and not intended for mass production or sale.

Material process.

Still retaining the primary meaning of 'abstrere' or 'to draw away from', the abstraction of money, for example, works by drawing away from the particular value of things allowing completely incommensurate objects to be compared (see the section on 'Physicality' below). Karl Marx's writing on the commodity abstraction recognizes a parallel process.

The state (polity) as both concept and material practice exemplifies the two sides of this process of abstraction. Conceptually, 'the current concept of the state is an abstraction from the much more concrete early-modern use as the standing or status of the prince, his visible estates'. At the same time, materially, the 'practice of statehood is now constitutively and materially more abstract than at the time when princes ruled as the embodiment of extended power'.[7]

 

[untermensche]

I agree ideas can be abstract.

But not objects.

Objects can have abstract ideas associated with them, but that doesn't make the object abstract.

As far as the mere recognition of an abstract idea.

I don't know if that requires an act of abstraction in itself.

 

[Juma]

I agree ideas can be abstract.

But not objects.

Objects can have abstract ideas associated with them, but that doesn't make the object abstract.

As far as the mere recognition of an abstract idea.

I don't know if that requires an act of abstraction in itself.

What is "an object"? "Object" is probably the most abstract concept ever!