• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is Religious Faith just another Religious Myth

Yes, I knew a chemist when I was a child who was an evangelical Christian. He was one of the most obnoxious men I ever met during my childhood. There are also a lot of physicians who are also conservative Christians. I guess they just compartmentalize their beliefs in the supernatural while sill believing in the scientific principle. As long as they keep their beliefs to themselves, that's fine. But, I had an atheist patient when I was still working as a nurse who complained to me that her doctor always insisted on praying before she would treat her. The older lady was too polite to say anything but she hated it, so I helped her find a new doctor. But, I'm going way off topic now.

Do you only meet conservative Christians? I suppose it's the location your in. Were there no other doctors that your atheist patient could see instead? It's not a bad thing to have a doctor of faith and a secular doctor at hand, having a relious patient who may want to see that doctor of faith, likewise with the atheists patient requesting a non-religious doctor.

Just because someone studies science doesn't mean that they aren't able to hold supernatural beliefs at the same time. I'm not sure how they do it, but then conservative Christians often tend to think all kinds of crazy things about us atheists. I prefer to appreciate people for their character and good natures, not for the things they believe.

Fairpoint but keep in mind there have also been secualr scientists who have later become religious.
 
Just because someone studies science doesn't mean that they aren't able to hold supernatural beliefs at the same time. I'm not sure how they do it, but then conservative Christians often tend to think all kinds of crazy things about us atheists. I prefer to appreciate people for their character and good natures, not for the things they believe.


Oops sorry the previous line response was not the right anwser to the quote. I should have just said fairpoint.
 
Scientists being religious or becoming religious doesn't have anything to do with science.
Thats fine, I was trying to say theists do science too.
You were saying more than that. Adults, especially scientists, continuing with theistic belief, but not with Santa-belief, was meant to demonstrate their cognition recognizes a significant distinction between the one belief and the other. You didn't really get into why though. I guess we're to assume they don't have "cognitive distortions" or biases that lead them to add metaphysical beliefs that don't really comport well with whatever they know about science.

Also, I'm wondering about this:
Do you know of any serious scholars or historians that study santa? If not ...then I would assume it's because they were able to differentiate between what is worth studying and writing books about and what is not. They don't equate the two.
Which serious scholars treat the Bible's reports of miracles as objective historical facts? Or even as "plausible"?
 
You were saying more than that. Adults, especially scientists, continuing with theistic belief, but not with Santa-belief, was meant to demonstrate their cognition recognizes a significant distinction between the one belief and the other. You didn't really get into why though. I guess we're to assume they don't have "cognitive distortions" or biases that lead them to add metaphysical beliefs that don't really comport well with whatever they know about science.

I'm interested you see santa-belief equal to Jesus-belief. Scientists who take to the belief in Jesus must know the same thing as atheist, agnostic as well as theist scholars who accept Jesus existed. Zero acceptance for santa ever existing unfortunately.

We all have biases athough ... "cognitive distortions" you seem to be saying is a characteristic only for the religious, as moogly seems to be saying. It's funny because there have been various studies suggesting the notion that having belief is part of the survial mechanism for humans.

Also, I'm wondering about this:
Do you know of any serious scholars or historians that study santa? If not ...then I would assume it's because they were able to differentiate between what is worth studying and writing books about and what is not. They don't equate the two.
Which serious scholars treat the Bible's reports of miracles as objective historical facts? Or even as "plausible"?

I'm wondering if you agree with the above from scholars and historians all round, accepting Jesus existed etc.. They probably will have their individual biases i.e. that Jesus did or did not perform miracles, depending on which side you're on.
 
If the discussion wanders into another episode of whether a GJ existed so be it. I'm more interested in discussing the how of some folk's penchant for seeing reality as a machination of magical beings. These beings must certainly be magical because they're not there scientifically, only magically.

Lots of adults believe in ghosts. I've had discussions with ardent religious believers and asked them directly if they thought ghosts were real and received a resounding "yes." And of course gods are ghosts so it makes sense and again we see someone who's reality is not the same reality I perceive but instead a reality that is operated by magical beings. They're everywhere in the form of spirits and ghosts, demons, angels, gods, souls and tall tales of all, but without any scientific evidence for same. We might even say their's is two realities, the reality of ghosty spirit-like creatures and the scientific reality we all seem able to sense and measure.

As I've stated elsewhere I do know one person who still had devout faith in Santa well into his fifties. I attributed this to his brain having been oxygen starved at birth and therefore different than mine and everyone else I ever met who was an adult. His mother recently confided in me that she doesn't think he still believes in Santa as he always had, her reasoning being that he was not "home" anymore and was out with other adults and therefore getting more than one side of the Santa story. I saw this as just another Santa deconversion, only one that happened much later in life due to a measurable brain condition.

Among my siblings the split is pretty even between those having faith in a magical reality and those who perceive only a scientific reality. That's quite an observation. Among my children the only one who ever perceived a magical reality as an adult also experienced psychosis and was hospitalized repeatedly for same. Before these conditions manifested his was a scientific reality only, so seeing this change occur was another formative observation.

Why these differences? When someone opines that there has to be a superghost to account for the existence of the universe, that the universe couldn't simply be here, how is it they don't apply the same standard to their superghost? How is it that their brain does not see the contradiction? In the case of my one psychotic child he had a condition that the medical community names "anasognosia," meaning he is unaware of his condition. That makes a lot of sense to me so is this condition prevalent in our species in degrees? Does it account for what some have called "compartmentalization?" It makes sense to me and easily explains our species behavioral partial penchant for belief in magic.

Also, maybe those who as children perceive a magical reality populated by magical beings never behaviorally give up their santa faith but merely transfer it as adults to what they perceive as a more credible devotion, one that is more socially acceptable.
 
I'm interested you see santa-belief equal to Jesus-belief. Scientists who take to the belief in Jesus must know the same thing as atheist, agnostic as well as theist scholars who accept Jesus existed. Zero acceptance for santa ever existing unfortunately.

I don't equate santa-belief and god-belief. They're only similar in one or two ways. The most damning similarity is they're both beliefs and not knowledge. Belief's optional.

My point was how lame an argument it is to point at theist scientists when you can't know they resolved how to make the miraculous seem reasonable to believe. Do it yourself.

We all have biases athough ... "cognitive distortions" you seem to be saying is a characteristic only for the religious, as moogly seems to be saying. It's funny because there have been various studies suggesting the notion that having belief is part of the survial mechanism for humans.

....

I'm wondering if you agree with the above from scholars and historians all round, accepting Jesus existed etc.. They probably will have their individual biases i.e. that Jesus did or did not perform miracles, depending on which side you're on.
No, I do not seem to be saying biases are only characteristic of the religious.

Whether Jesus existed or not doesn't matter. "He existed" and "he did miracles" are two different matters.
Are you saying god-belief is an issue of biases and taking sides? If so then OK!
Sometimes I point at the biases too, and theists go from "no, it's YOU that is biased!" to "biases? ME? prove it!"

Yeah. Biases. Theists believe in God because they want to and come up with reasons for it, following the funny notion of "justified true belief theory" (and thereby confusing belief and knowing).
 
Also, maybe those who as children perceive a magical reality populated by magical beings never behaviorally give up their santa faith but merely transfer it as adults to what they perceive as a more credible devotion, one that is more socially acceptable.

Yeah, socially acceptable.

It's natural to want to "enchant" the world somehow, to make it less boring and horrible. Religion gives a ready-made, age-old way to do this.

I have a friend who badly misses her deceased mother. She can't deal with her mother's death as a finality. There's a ready-made traditional religious prescription for this, and it has a lot of support over the centuries. So, as Learner's been trying to convey, it's not weird that people believe this stuff.

My friend has come to doubt that she'll see her mother again in heaven. It's not so much for brushing up on her scientific materialism, but more due to lacking a supportive circle of religious peers because she had a falling-out with her religious family.

I think ultimately it's that people reference a social reality when deciding (inasmuch as they really "decide") what to believe. You want to focus on what's physically apparent or evident and what isn't. But people primarily reference a social reality, and the physical world becomes a subcategory of social conventions.
 
Yes, I knew a chemist when I was a child who was an evangelical Christian. He was one of the most obnoxious men I ever met during my childhood. There are also a lot of physicians who are also conservative Christians. I guess they just compartmentalize their beliefs in the supernatural while sill believing in the scientific principle. As long as they keep their beliefs to themselves, that's fine. But, I had an atheist patient when I was still working as a nurse who complained to me that her doctor always insisted on praying before she would treat her. The older lady was too polite to say anything but she hated it, so I helped her find a new doctor. But, I'm going way off topic now.

Do you only meet conservative Christians? I suppose it's the location your in. Were there no other doctors that your atheist patient could see instead? It's not a bad thing to have a doctor of faith and a secular doctor at hand, having a relious patient who may want to see that doctor of faith, likewise with the atheists patient requesting a non-religious doctor.

Just because someone studies science doesn't mean that they aren't able to hold supernatural beliefs at the same time. I'm not sure how they do it, but then conservative Christians often tend to think all kinds of crazy things about us atheists. I prefer to appreciate people for their character and good natures, not for the things they believe.

Fairpoint but keep in mind there have also been secualr scientists who have later become religious.

Actually, I grew up in New Jersey and was raised by evangelicals but I went to public schools of my friends were Catholics or liberal Christians. Yes, I do know some liberal Christians in the south. The doctor who I referred my former patient to was a liberal Hindu, a lovely Indian immigrant who I knew wouldn't try to pray over my patient. Her religious beliefs had nothing to do with why I chose her. I just thought she was a good doctor.

I really don't need to know what my medical providers believe, and the only reason I know that so many doctors are Christians is from reading some of the comments on a medical site, plus I know that many of the doctors in my town do mission work. I don't hate Christians. I have Christian friends, but all but one of them are black Christians. They don't try to convert me and I respect the love they have for their church communities. Most of the white Christians here are conservative Trump supporters so I have nothing in common with people who hold such distorted values.

But, the author of the OP is trying to get us back on track, so I'll stop here.
 
If the discussion wanders into another episode of whether a GJ existed so be it. I'm more interested in discussing the how of some folk's penchant for seeing reality as a machination of magical beings. These beings must certainly be magical because they're not there scientifically, only magically.

I've been trying to figure that out since my mid 20s. I'll share an example. I have a neighbor who I try to give a lot of emotional support to because she is so lonely. She's agnostic when it comes to god, although she was raised by conservative Christians. But, she believes in all kinds of crazy woo. Some of her woo is perfectly harmless. She has little rituals that she believe bring her peace and love etc. But, she also believes in psychics and she was in a very gloomy mood over the last few days, at least partly due to having to stay home during the pandemic as she is in her mid 70s and has some health problems.

I remembered that last year she told me that her psychic told her that this would be a great year for her, that she would meet a good man etc. She knows that I'm an extremely skeptical atheist, so I asked her how she could still believe in her psychic since she was having a terrible year and she had not met any men. Her answers was that her psychic didn't know about the pandemic and that's why her predictions didn't come true. So, I asked her why her psychic didn't know about the pandemic if she could tell the future. She didn't really have an answer but made some vague excuses, so I changed the subject. I just hate to see her spending money on psychics when she's always complaining about money. But, I have no idea how people can believe in such woo, regardless if it's Christian or pagan or any other variety of woo.

My neighbor also swears that she's had visions. I tried to convince her that it's very common for people to sometimes experience hallucinations or have weird dreams that seem real. She wasn't convinced. Oh well. You really can't reason with people like that, no matter how hard you try. My guess is that their brains are wired to accept supernatural beliefs. Some of us are able to break away from the indoctrination we were given as children, while others can't. Some people will embrace supernatural beliefs as adults, despite not being indoctrinated.

I guess it all comes down to those neurotransmitters, and how our dendrites and axons communicate information between our neurons. I'm no neurologist, but from the little that I know, that seems like the most reasonable explanation.
 
My neighbor also swears that she's had visions. I tried to convince her that it's very common for people to sometimes experience hallucinations or have weird dreams that seem real. She wasn't convinced. Oh well. You really can't reason with people like that, no matter how hard you try. My guess is that their brains are wired to accept supernatural beliefs. Some of us are able to break away from the indoctrination we were given as children, while others can't. Some people will embrace supernatural beliefs as adults, despite not being indoctrinated.

I guess it all comes down to those neurotransmitters, and how our dendrites and axons communicate information between our neurons. I'm no neurologist, but from the little that I know, that seems like the most reasonable explanation.

It's the only explanation.

Believing in woo, however, should have a survival upside or it wouldn't be around. There are enough studies out there that seem to indicate that belief in woo can have positive impacts on health such as lowering stress hormones. But any good relaxation technique will do the same thing without the additional woo. There's also the group survival argument, aka tribalism. Historically, humans on their own are doomed. This goes back millions of years so the selection pressure to live like the group lives has been hard at work.

Having religious faith is the mental act of pretending that something unpleasant is not real. It's not the same as santa faith in this sense. Interestingly, the phenomenon of anasognosia was first observed and recorded in stroke patients who for all practical purposes simply appeared to be in conscious denial that they were physically impaired in some way, for example, partially paralyzed. The stroke had in fact damaged the brain and rendered it unable to recognize the paralysis. The brain was pretending that there was no injury when in fact there was definite injury. This is pretty nigh identical to religious faith, the brain is coping with unpleasantness.
 
missed the context of my presence.

It looks like you badly want it acknowledged that you're not just any believer.
No. NO. NO! I was directly countering the blind-faith, no reason, no evidence, insulting straw man assumed in the OP. Read it. It required rebuffing. It was my burden to address.

Thus when I rightfully redressed the disparaging straw man, you turn my redress into me trying to beat a dead horse while singing the same ole song. Why not acknowledge and address the straw man in the OP yourself? You agree I’m not devoid of clever reasoning.
Let me reverse the OP…….
“You atheists are so weak minded. Anyone challenges you intellectually and start the same ole emotional response every time. You are lost in the delusion you are so smart.”
Now……..wait…..think about it……
If you respond to that ….. then you’ll prove my point.
But, the dogged persistence... on one single point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over... is because you're very sure?
Then rebuke the dogged insistence that theists have a blind faith. Are stupid. Can’t reason……rebuke the OP yourself? Stop creating threads predicated upon such insulting straw men.

You can’t be so weak minded as to blame that kind of frequent insistence and error on me.
BTW, I don't care if I penetrate your senseless beliefs. Like I said a couple posts back, go ahead and believe whatever you want. LOL.
Your conclusion of my “senseless” beliefs just contradicts your description of my clever reasoning. Again I didn’t start the thread. I never have. I was responding to an insulting fallacy that was presented by “smart” atheists. If this brainless straw man continues to be presented then I’ll continue to respond. Why blame me for its continuance?

Seriously look at what how this thread has progressed. All those atheists continuing on in their delusion of the blind faith straw man. It’s like all they ever do is stay in the huddle and cuddle one another. They rarely ever step up to the line of scrimmage. But for you I’m standing here all alone on the line of scrimmage watching them be “so reasonable” in their cuddle huddle. Maybe in the next game?

Have a gr8 4th of July weekend.
:cool:
 
Oh please spare us the pity party remez! You have no idea what we atheist sometimes have to put up with when we are open about our lack of belief in gods. I once had a physician at a party scream at me because I said that I had just left an atheist meetup so I could join the party. That was in response to him telling me how many parties were going on over the holidays. I told him he was too abrasive to continue talking to, then his wife came over and tried to convince me that her poor husband. had to deal with death as he was a pathologist and so he was very sensitive about people who lacked a belief in god. I told her that I was a nurse who cared for frail, older adults who were often close to death. So, I guess an atheist can deal with death better than some theists.

Another time, a nurse I worked with got down on her knees and screamed when she found out I was an atheist. She yelled, "tell me that's not true...." I had no idea she was like that. After that, I always wondered what was gong through her mind when we had to communicate.

Another time, when I was a QA/UR nurse, I worked with two Christian bullies. I am an emotionally strong person who rarely gets upset over what others think of me, but these two women made my life at work so difficult that I ended. up asking for a transfer to another office.

Then there's my neighbor's aunt. She's in her 90s and I only met her once or twice. She doesn't know I'm an atheist, but she told my neighbor that atheists are given special powers from Satan. That one is hilarious. We don't believe in Satan either.

You have no idea how many times we are told "I'll pray for you" in response to admitting we don't believe in gods. Why was it necessary to say it. If you think it's so important, just do it. No need to announce it.

I had a black hospice chaplain refuse to believe me when I told him there was a group in Atlanta known as "The Black Nonbelivers". "No, not the brothers", he said as he looked at me as if I was telling him a lie. All I did was ask him what type of support he was prepared to offer an atheist who was dying. Hospice chaplains are supposed to be respectful of any of their patients regardless of their beliefs.

While more people are becoming tolerant of us, atheists are still one of the most despised and misjudged groups in the US. But, it's often Christians who suffer from persecution complexes when their unsubstantiated beliefs are criticized. Boo hoo. I once saw a bumper sticker on a car that said, "I'm Christian and I vote". I thought that was pretty funny since the majority of people where I live are Christians. If I put a sticker on my car that said, "I'm atheist and I vote", I'd be afraid my car might be vandalized.

And, you think we are cuddly? I do wish that atheists were more cuddly. Unfortunately, we often don't have enough in common with each other to do a good job of forming strong communities. Plus we tend to be introverts and introverts usually don't make good leaders or organizers. Christians are good at forming groups. I'll give you that.

Due to the current pandemic, some Christians are whining because they can't go to church or they are stupid enough to go to church without maintaining any social distancing. Then they spread the virus.

The Christian writings say that their beliefs should be taken on faith. Faith isn't evidence of anything. That's all we atheists are saying. You can't say that something is true when there is no actual evidence to support that claim.

And, just to add some humor. In honor of a former member of IIDB, who was also a nurse but hasn't been around in years.
"God is Santa for adults". That was one of her favorite expressions. I don't know if she made it up or stole it from somebody else, but to some extent it makes sense. Children enjoy believing in fairy tales and magical beings. Some adults seem to need magical beings to keep them happy too. I guess it gives them hope. Maybe they can't face their own mortality. I don't really know for sure since I left religion about 45 years ago. But, I do know this. Criticizing one's beliefs is not the same as telling a person they are evil or going to be tortured for all of eternity due to their beliefs.

"When I was a child, I thought like a child, but now that I've become a ( wo) man, I've put away childish things." There are some good sayings in the Bible. :)

I can still be close friends with someone regardless if I think their beliefs are irrational. Unlike some Christians, I don't condemn them. But, this is a place where atheists get a chance to openly express their views, so don't take it so personally. We don't have many places where we get to express ourselves so openly.
 
Remez is out to assail what he calls the "blind-faith, no reason, no evidence insulting straw man" that we atheists are throwing his way. The trouble is, when you have faith in invisible entities you can characterize them any way you choose, and believers do, and therefore any quality that he finds to be in the 'blind faith' category you will find fully embodied in people you meet, religious tracts, TV preachers, Mike Pence meditations, etc. etc. It is no fabrication to say that much of what goes for accepted wisdom in publicly stated religion is smack dab in the blind faith, no reason, no evidence category. Such as, to quote a self-described Bible lover, "This virus will someday just go away, like a miracle!" Or try this quote from St. Ignatius: "We should always be disposed to believe that what appears to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides."
Speaking just for me, and not the Worldwide Atheist Conspiracy, I look at that quote using Remez' rubric and say: Blind faith? Check. No reason? Check. No evidence? Double check. Insulting? No. Accurate and justified. It's a blind faith, no reason, no evidence way of looking at the world.
 
Thus when I rightfully redressed the disparaging straw man, you turn my redress into me trying to beat a dead horse while singing the same ole song.
Yeah, that you have reasoned faith. That's been the theme from the get-go, hasn't it? I always took your KCA as your primary example of how your faith is reasoned faith and not blind faith. Isn't that why you're on about "the disparaging straw man"?

Let me reverse the OP…….
“You atheists are so weak minded. Anyone challenges you intellectually and start the same ole emotional response every time. You are lost in the delusion you are so smart.”
Now……..wait…..think about it……
If you respond to that ….. then you’ll prove my point.

That's not a reverse of the OP. That's quite a distorted caricature.

Then rebuke the dogged insistence that theists have a blind faith. Are stupid. Can’t reason……rebuke the OP yourself? Stop creating threads predicated upon such insulting straw men.
Maybe try to read the OP for what the intention is without going "insults! insults!"

Your conclusion of my “senseless” beliefs just contradicts your description of my clever reasoning.
"It"... reasoning... isn't a singular thing. IOW, it's really not an "it" but an assortment of reasons for your beliefs. Some are clever, some not so much. I meant "you have [some] clever reasons", not that your whole reasoned faith is a coherent line of argument.

Reason and faith is a weird mix of some reasons with some articles of faith. So "reasoned faith" is just piling reasons, rationalization, on top of a mythological critter like God. The being was already there before people started scratching around for some clever philosophical reasons to believe it.

This is the reason for arguing with theists. Not just to elicit their automated programming but to say "your reasons have issues, you should rethink them". That the faith article behind the reasons seems untouchable by reason (because the rationalizations always get more desperate) looks like that is the part of it all which is blind faith.

Are there people who produce no reasons at all? who are 100% automated? I'd be surprised if there are. But I never used the word "blind faith" to mean they haven't thought up rationalizations ("reasons"). Just that they're going on a lot about something that hasn't reached "justified true belief" status.
 
Last edited:
Some people use faith to improve their lives.

Someone I know is a Russian Orthodox Christian. He understands. He says faith and participation gives him solace.

The wacky ones use faith as some twisted concept.

There are many crutches people use. Alcohol, drugs, pot, sex, food, movies, music. Dead Heads used to follow the Teatful Dead around the world. Some teat mucisns, like Bob Dylan, as some kind of mystical prophet.

The way I see it religion is one manifestation of a general human need or function.
 
Faith is by definition blind: holding a belief or conviction of truth that's not supported by evidence.

Hope may be a mixture of faith and expectation, expectation based on probability and odds.

Confidence is built or destroyed according to direct experience with people or things, reliability, trustworthiness.
 
Faith is by definition blind: holding a belief or conviction of truth that's not supported by evidence.

Hope may be a mixture of faith and expectation, expectation based on probability and odds.

Confidence is built or destroyed according to direct experience with people or things, reliability, trustworthiness.

Secular faith? It's just hope or a dogged determination to prevail. It doesn't pretend that unpleasantness is not real but simply reflects human behavior in the face of great odds. It doesn't include magical beings or magic events such as pretending that a deceased person is now happily living in the sky with a magical friend. Secular faith accepts death without despair, delusion and magic. It involves simply having come to terms with reality, having made one's peace and having decided to get on positively with life. It's having become and continuing to be an adult.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom