i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite
but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
-
Features
islam is growing in the west
- Thread starter Syed
- Start date
i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite
but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 36,280
- Gender
- He/Him
- Basic Beliefs
- Strong Atheist
That doesn't excuse your belief in a really poor explanation.
It is better to admit ignorance than to claim knowledge that you simply do not have.
abaddon
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2003
- Messages
- 2,386
That’s right. Now just apply that to yourself. You are one of the people who is just saying an imagination to explain how the universe was created. As were the writers of the Koran and Bible and everyone else who has ever put forward an idea on why or how the universe has come to exist.
Can you imagine just not having the explanation? Can you imagine yourself just saying the plain truth: "I really don't know"? Can you imagine just letting it be that way, "I really don't know", and just leaving it there and not needing an explanation right now?
Keith&Co.
Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2006
- Messages
- 22,444
- Location
- Far Western Mass
- Gender
- Here.
- Basic Beliefs
- I'm here...
How? What gives him this power?
What did he do with it?
In what manner did he change the dusty smoke into all the elements of creation?
How did he know how to do it?
Keith&Co.
Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2006
- Messages
- 22,444
- Location
- Far Western Mass
- Gender
- Here.
- Basic Beliefs
- I'm here...
But you are not OFFERING an explanation, Syed. YOu're offering a name. That doesn't explain anything.
So since it isn't an explanation, it can't possibly be A GOOD EXPLANATION.
It's certainly not better than an actual explanation, now, is it?
"We don't know why the universe exists" does not necessarily lead to the conclusion"Allah did it". And, if it is true that everything that exists needs a creator, then Allah needs a creator too. So who created Allah, and why are these simple concepts so difficult for you to understand?
Maybe you do understand, and you're playing dumb so you don't have to engage in a debate to defend your position. Or maybe you really don't get it.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 46,517
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
It must have a creator, but the creator doesn't need creator. That doesn't make sense.
Why should there be an explanation?
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 46,517
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
I misunderstood your post originally. It looks like you are saying god does have a creator. What in the world is that creator if it created a god?
skepticalbip
Contributor
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
- Messages
- 7,304
- Basic Beliefs
- Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
And what created the creator that created god?... and what created the creator that created the creator that created god?............ oh, my.
C_Mucius_Scaevola
Veteran Member
This is probably the question that started me on the road to atheism. I asked it, aged 6, of my schoolteacher, when she was "explaining" that God created everything. She wasn't amused, and quickly moved on. But she wasn't just my teacher, she was my aunt as well, so when I got home, my mother wasn't amused either. Still didn't give me a decent answer, though, and nor has anybody else in the 43½ years since. All I've gotten is hand-waving and special pleading about God being the one thing that doesn't need a creator. I don't expect Syed to do any better.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 46,517
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
Yes. This just pushes the question back one step. Nothing can be X... except for one thing. That isn't a very viable logic argument, but for some reason it has legs among hundreds of millions to billions of people.
Does the universe existing "without cause" make much sense? Well, it makes about as much sense as anything else existing "without cause".
Does the universe existing "without cause" make much sense? Well, it makes about as much sense as anything else existing "without cause".
crispy
Member
Tell me which of these explanations is the simplest:
1) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.
2) An
3) An
4) An
5) An
6) An
7) An
8) An
9)
10)
Last edited:
skepticalbip
Contributor
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
- Messages
- 7,304
- Basic Beliefs
- Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
This is a bit off topic. But then there doesn't really seem to be much of a topic.
braces_for_impact
Veteran Member
Perhaps we'll all just switch places.
Or not. Is Islam growing in the West? Beyond simply the amount of Muslims coming to the West and having children? I didn't think the numbers were significant. If we don't destroy ourselves, I think ultimately the secularists will win, and most religion will be reduced to fuzzy, feel good beliefs and obscure rituals.
Or not. Is Islam growing in the West? Beyond simply the amount of Muslims coming to the West and having children? I didn't think the numbers were significant. If we don't destroy ourselves, I think ultimately the secularists will win, and most religion will be reduced to fuzzy, feel good beliefs and obscure rituals.
ronburgundy
Contributor
Yeah, it kind of simultaneously defeats the two "strongest" (not saying much) arguments in philosophy for God's existence, the cosmological and teleological arguments.
The former is that all things need a cause, but then magically there can be a first cause that wasn't itself caused, even though that directly contradicts the first assumption.
The latter is the argument from design which is really just a variant of the former, adding complexity to the mix, namely that all complexity must have been caused by something that had such complexity as a goal (and thus had a mind). But since such a mind is inherently complex, that mind would need a mind to have created it, ad infinitum.
At age 17, I took my first Philosophy course, I was exposed to these and the other 2 main arguments for God (ontological: There must be the greatest thing imaginable and whatever that is, its God; and Moral Law: Morals laws wouldn't exist without a law-maker). I wrote my thesis for the class on how pathetically bad and self-defeating all these were. Since they were presented as the best intellectual arguments anyone has come up with so far (and sadly they are), that sealed the deal for me in being an atheist. I had already started down that road at age 13, but that start was more about rejecting any notion of a God that was powerful and good, due to how almost every fact of the world contradicted these assumptions. I left a little room for a possible deistic creator God, up until that Philosophy course.
Is Islam growing in the West? I can only answer for the UK, and the answer is no. Quite a number of Muslims are settling here, but the climate doesn't suit religion, though, as with the Irish settlers of the past, a tiny minority of the younger generation ignorantly attempt to find some connection with the past by adopting violence. All things pass.
C_Mucius_Scaevola
Veteran Member
Apparently, Islam is coming to the West to apostasize ...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity
... or some of it, at least.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity
... or some of it, at least.
they are desperate refuges want to stay in the west
C_Mucius_Scaevola
Veteran Member
Some of them, no doubt, are faking conversion to help their asylum claims - the churches admit as much, if you read the article. But others, they say, are genuine converts. And who can blame them? Coming from lands where Islam is the majority religion and violence and/or war are part of daily life, I can understand why some might question the beliefs they learned there.