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islam is growing in the west

Ramaraksha

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What a stupid post - same religion that says 64 virgins are waiting for you in heaven? Women have to hide under Burkhas from sex-crazy men? Same religion that dominates countries where mass killings, terrorism, poverty is the order of the day? Minorities fleeing from these countries as fast as they can? Muslims running away from their countries trying to get to europe?
Listen, there is no Sugar Daddy God - there is no heaven - no magic Sugar Daddy waiting to keep you in comfort - it is just a fantasy
Would any father divide his own children? But a Master gladly would - these are Master/Slave religions - born when Kings ruled with an iron fist - no democracy - belief is the other word for Loyalty - the King demanded loyalty from his subjects - just a primitive religion
 

Syed

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that was MY QUESTION not YOURS what is the mechanism that universe create itself?

so go ahead explain
You say nothing can happen without god (Actually, you said that noting can happen without god, but chances are that you meant nothing rather than stenography). And you've claimed that makes more sense than a universe without a creator.
But the implication of that claim is that your skybeast created life and all of reality.
That makes 'how?' a reasonable question to ask you.

And you have absolutely no way to answer it without hand waving, so you try to distract and evade... Too bad the rest of us have attention spans.
i dont understand your question

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What a stupid post - same religion that says 64 virgins are waiting for you in heaven? Women have to hide under Burkhas from sex-crazy men? Same religion that dominates countries where mass killings, terrorism, poverty is the order of the day? Minorities fleeing from these countries as fast as they can? Muslims running away from their countries trying to get to europe?
Listen, there is no Sugar Daddy God - there is no heaven - no magic Sugar Daddy waiting to keep you in comfort - it is just a fantasy
Would any father divide his own children? But a Master gladly would - these are Master/Slave religions - born when Kings ruled with an iron fist - no democracy - belief is the other word for Loyalty - the King demanded loyalty from his subjects - just a primitive religion

hanuman ji are you ok?
 

crispy

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A creator doesn't make sense. Especially not when you try give it all sorts of superfluous attributes such as loving, all-knowing, justice and so on...
universe without god makes sense ? why?

It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.
 

crispy

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why do you care?
And you still haven't answered my question: by what mechanism did this Allah of yours create not only life, but the universe and everything it contains? Do you have an answer to that that contains more than just a wave of the hands and a "yadda, yadda, yadda, there was a universe"?

that was MY QUESTION not YOURS what is the mechanism that universe create itself?

so go ahead explain

The answer is "we don't know". We don't have the arrogance to make up explanations when we don't know. Another answer is that it is possible that the question doesn't even make sense, because time did not exists before the universe existed.

If you really want to understand the argument you are trying to make, try to watch some youtube videos refuting the argument.
 

skepticalbip

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universe without god makes sense ? why?

It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.

Since Syed has no problem making absolutist certain claims, you could as easily say that a universe without god makes sense because that is reality. Reality makes more since than fairy tails. :eek:
 

Syed

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It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.

Since Syed has no problem making absolutist certain claims, you could as easily say that a universe without god makes sense because that is reality. Reality makes more since than fairy tails. :eek:

cars without engineers makes no sense

universe / life without god makes no sense
 

Methinx

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i dont understand your question
How surprising.

HOW did Allah make everything?

I bet Syed cannot point to a single thing created directly by God.

Also the first law of thermodynamics states that mass/energy can neither be created or destroyed.

One wonders why God violates his own laws...? :thinking:
 

Methinx

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the first law of thermodynamics states that mass/energy can neither be created or destroyed.

One wonders why God violates his own laws...? :thinking:

in the quran god said he created universe from smoke like dust

so universe from NOTHING makes no sense

The quraan says many things...


Here is a quote from another Hanuman Ji (as you call them) :Jinasena Mahapurana

Some foolish men declare that Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected.
If god created the world, where was he before creation?

If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now? No single being had the skill to make the world - for how can an immaterial god create that which is material? How could god have made the world without any raw material? If you say he made this first, and then the world, you are face with an endless regression.

If you declare that the raw material arose naturally you fall into another fallacy, for the whole universe might thus have been its own creator, and have risen equally naturally. If god created the world by an act of will, without any raw material, then it is just his will made nothing else and who will believe this silly stuff?

If he is ever perfect, and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe than a potter could. If he is formless, actionless, and all-embracing, how could he have created the world? Such a soul, devoid of all modality, would have no desire to create anything.

If you say that he created to no purpose, because it was his nature to do so then god is pointless. If he created in some kind of sport, it was the sport of a foolish child, leading to trouble. If he created out of love for living things and need of them he made the world; why did he not make creation wholly blissful, free from misfortune?

Thus the doctrine that the world was created by god makes no sense at all.

wslm.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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It makes more sense to me that the universe doesn't have a creator. This is mostly for reasons you either wouldn't understand or wouldn't want to understand. All I will say is that there is evidence for the existence of the universe everywhere I look, listen or feel. For a creator thereof ... not so much. The way things are, the way seeming order always turns out to be nothing more than "seeming" - everything we know or discover leads inexorably to the belief that there is no Grand Plan in place, there is no Divine Planner behind it all. Things are as they are because that's the way they worked out, not because some super being in the sky wanted them to work out that way. (BTW, we've checked the sky, and there's no super being there ... where should we llook next?)


No, I know that evolution is the best explanation of how we arrived at the place where we are. It fits with all the evidence and shows Creationism up for the stupidity that it is. Abiogenisis fits the evidence as well; the only question is "how", not "whether" it happened. One way I'm sure it didn't happen is by some super being telling things to "be", and suddenly they were. That's like some shit out of Harry Potter or Hans Christian Anderson. Nice stories for the kids, but there must be something wrong with an adult who still believes it.

And you still haven't answered my question: by what mechanism did this Allah of yours create not only life, but the universe and everything it contains? Do you have an answer to that that contains more than just a wave of the hands and a "yadda, yadda, yadda, there was a universe"?
the reason we believe in god because that NOTING can happen without make it happen
Except for god that is.
 

crispy

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why do you care?
Since Syed has no problem making absolutist certain claims, you could as easily say that a universe without god makes sense because that is reality. Reality makes more since than fairy tails. :eek:

cars without engineers makes no sense

universe / life without god makes no sense

Did you skip my question on purpose?
 

Keith&Co.

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How surprising.

HOW did Allah make everything?

allah has power over ALL elements, he can makes anything he want by his command
That's not a 'how,' Syed.
And there's no evidence that the elements are voice-activated.

- - - Updated - - -

the first law of thermodynamics states that mass/energy can neither be created or destroyed.

One wonders why God violates his own laws...? :thinking:

in the quran god said he created universe from smoke like dust

so universe from NOTHING makes no sense
Where'd the smoke like dust come from?
 

skepticalbip

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Since Syed has no problem making absolutist certain claims, you could as easily say that a universe without god makes sense because that is reality. Reality makes more since than fairy tails. :eek:

cars without engineers makes no sense

Are you claiming that Allah is a mechanical device (created by humans) that is prone to breaking down?

I would agree with some of that. Allah was created by humans and is prone to revisions when needed.
universe / life without god makes no sense
In the same way that my home town makes no sense without dragons and fairies.
 

Syed

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in the quran god said he created universe from smoke like dust

so universe from NOTHING makes no sense

The quraan says many things...


Here is a quote from another Hanuman Ji (as you call them) :Jinasena Mahapurana

Some foolish men declare that Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected.
If god created the world, where was he before creation?

If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now? No single being had the skill to make the world - for how can an immaterial god create that which is material? How could god have made the world without any raw material? If you say he made this first, and then the world, you are face with an endless regression.

If you declare that the raw material arose naturally you fall into another fallacy, for the whole universe might thus have been its own creator, and have risen equally naturally. If god created the world by an act of will, without any raw material, then it is just his will made nothing else and who will believe this silly stuff?

If he is ever perfect, and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe than a potter could. If he is formless, actionless, and all-embracing, how could he have created the world? Such a soul, devoid of all modality, would have no desire to create anything.

If you say that he created to no purpose, because it was his nature to do so then god is pointless. If he created in some kind of sport, it was the sport of a foolish child, leading to trouble. If he created out of love for living things and need of them he made the world; why did he not make creation wholly blissful, free from misfortune?

Thus the doctrine that the world was created by god makes no sense at all.

wslm.

how does universe created itself?
 

jonJ

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how does universe created itself?

Here's one possibility: whatever it is you imagine your god did just happened by itself. And since you can't explain how a god does anything, there's no way for you to show that the presence of a god is necessary for whatever you think happened.

There's no way of distinguishing between "An undetectable god made the universe by magic" and "The universe came into being by magic, all by itself". And the second has the advantage of being simpler.

You explain what happened -- with evidence -- and I'll explain why a god's not necessary.
 

Syed

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the reason we believe in god because that NOTING can happen without make it happen
Except for god that is.

please explain what do you mean by that ?

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allah has power over ALL elements, he can makes anything he want by his command
That's not a 'how,' Syed.
And there's no evidence that the elements are voice-activated.

- - - Updated - - -

the first law of thermodynamics states that mass/energy can neither be created or destroyed.

One wonders why God violates his own laws...? :thinking:

in the quran god said he created universe from smoke like dust

so universe from NOTHING makes no sense
Where'd the smoke like dust come from?

does not explain
 

Syed

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universe without god makes sense ? why?

It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.
your answer does not satisfied me
 

Syed

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how does universe created itself?

Here's one possibility: whatever it is you imagine your god did just happened by itself. And since you can't explain how a god does anything, there's no way for you to show that the presence of a god is necessary for whatever you think happened.

There's no way of distinguishing between "An undetectable god made the universe by magic" and "The universe came into being by magic, all by itself". And the second has the advantage of being simpler.

You explain what happened -- with evidence -- and I'll explain why a god's not necessary.

no one know how universe and life come about, IF you did knew its just your IMAGINATION nothing more
 

bilby

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Here's one possibility: whatever it is you imagine your god did just happened by itself. And since you can't explain how a god does anything, there's no way for you to show that the presence of a god is necessary for whatever you think happened.

There's no way of distinguishing between "An undetectable god made the universe by magic" and "The universe came into being by magic, all by itself". And the second has the advantage of being simpler.

You explain what happened -- with evidence -- and I'll explain why a god's not necessary.

no one know how universe and life come about, IF you did knew its just your IMAGINATION nothing more

Exactly.

And yet, you claim to know.

Strange.
 

skepticalbip

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It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.
your answer does not satisfied me

:hysterical:

Thanks, Syed. That is funny as hell and I do enjoy a good laugh.
 

atrib

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Here's one possibility: whatever it is you imagine your god did just happened by itself. And since you can't explain how a god does anything, there's no way for you to show that the presence of a god is necessary for whatever you think happened.

There's no way of distinguishing between "An undetectable god made the universe by magic" and "The universe came into being by magic, all by itself". And the second has the advantage of being simpler.

You explain what happened -- with evidence -- and I'll explain why a god's not necessary.

no one know how universe and life come about, IF you did knew its just your IMAGINATION nothing more

You mean no one except you knows, correct? ;)

And you are right; claiming that Allah created the universe because a syphilitic, pedophile bandit prophet wrote a story about it many years ago is purely imagination.

You have the critical thinking skills of a six year old child, at best. But you are entertaining, and persistent.
 

Keith&Co.

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does not explain
I know you don't.

Look, according to you nothing comes from nothing, so something had to exist for all eternity. Allah and smoke and dust, apparently.
Why is Allah necesary, though?
Why can't the smoke and dust have just done the so-far undescribed act that you think Allah did?

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no one know how universe and life come about,
Then it's not possible for you to point to anyone else's theory and say 'that's wrong.'
Because you don't know.
 

skepticalbip

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Exactly.

And yet, you claim to know.

Strange.

since science does not know about origin of universe, god theory makes sense
Since even the greatest scholar of the Quran does not know about the origin of Allah, an eternal universe without a god or a spontaneously occurring universe without a god or an eternally cyclic universe without a god makes sense.
 

Syed

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please explain what do you mean by that ?
You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
 

bilby

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You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION

That doesn't excuse your belief in a really poor explanation.

It is better to admit ignorance than to claim knowledge that you simply do not have.
 

abaddon

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no one know how universe and life come about, IF you did knew its just your IMAGINATION nothing more

That’s right. Now just apply that to yourself. You are one of the people who is just saying an imagination to explain how the universe was created. As were the writers of the Koran and Bible and everyone else who has ever put forward an idea on why or how the universe has come to exist.

Can you imagine just not having the explanation? Can you imagine yourself just saying the plain truth: "I really don't know"? Can you imagine just letting it be that way, "I really don't know", and just leaving it there and not needing an explanation right now?
 

Keith&Co.

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That's not a 'how,' Syed.
And there's no evidence that the elements are voice-activated.
human are earth's elements we can hear, talk, see, walk, feel, smell

god has power over all thing
How? What gives him this power?
What did he do with it?
In what manner did he change the dusty smoke into all the elements of creation?
How did he know how to do it?
 

Keith&Co.

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but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
But you are not OFFERING an explanation, Syed. YOu're offering a name. That doesn't explain anything.

So since it isn't an explanation, it can't possibly be A GOOD EXPLANATION.
It's certainly not better than an actual explanation, now, is it?
 

atrib

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You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION

"We don't know why the universe exists" does not necessarily lead to the conclusion"Allah did it". And, if it is true that everything that exists needs a creator, then Allah needs a creator too. So who created Allah, and why are these simple concepts so difficult for you to understand?

Maybe you do understand, and you're playing dumb so you don't have to engage in a debate to defend your position. Or maybe you really don't get it. :sad:
 

Jimmy Higgins

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You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
It must have a creator, but the creator doesn't need creator. That doesn't make sense.
 

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You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION

Why should there be an explanation?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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You rail about the insanity that is an uncaused universe, yet give a pass on the uncaused god. Seems quite inconsistent.

i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
I misunderstood your post originally. It looks like you are saying god does have a creator. What in the world is that creator if it created a god?
 

skepticalbip

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i understood what you saying, i dont know who / what created god, i dont know space is infinite

but its make sense that universe and life has a creator THERE IS NO OTHER GOOD EXPLANATION
I misunderstood your post originally. It looks like you are saying god does have a creator. What in the world is that creator if it created a god?
And what created the creator that created god?... and what created the creator that created the creator that created god?............ oh, my.
 

C_Mucius_Scaevola

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I misunderstood your post originally. It looks like you are saying god does have a creator. What in the world is that creator if it created a god?

And what created the creator that created god?... and what created the creator that created the creator that created god?............ oh, my.

This is probably the question that started me on the road to atheism. I asked it, aged 6, of my schoolteacher, when she was "explaining" that God created everything. She wasn't amused, and quickly moved on. But she wasn't just my teacher, she was my aunt as well, so when I got home, my mother wasn't amused either. Still didn't give me a decent answer, though, and nor has anybody else in the 43½ years since. All I've gotten is hand-waving and special pleading about God being the one thing that doesn't need a creator. I don't expect Syed to do any better.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Yes. This just pushes the question back one step. Nothing can be X... except for one thing. That isn't a very viable logic argument, but for some reason it has legs among hundreds of millions to billions of people.

Does the universe existing "without cause" make much sense? Well, it makes about as much sense as anything else existing "without cause".
 

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why do you care?
It makes sense because it is simpler. It is simpler because in a universe without god you wont also have to explain god. Explain to me why god is loving. And no, I don't believe in your book, so please reference something else.
your answer does not satisfied me

Tell me which of these explanations is the simplest:

1) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

2) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

3) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

4) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

5) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

6) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

7) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

8) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

9)An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent godsomething, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe and everything in it so he could be worshipped.

10) An uncaused, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent godsomething, who inspired Muhammad and the Quran, and created the universe exists for unknown reasonsand everything in it so he could be worshipped.
 
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braces_for_impact

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Perhaps we'll all just switch places.

Or not. Is Islam growing in the West? Beyond simply the amount of Muslims coming to the West and having children? I didn't think the numbers were significant. If we don't destroy ourselves, I think ultimately the secularists will win, and most religion will be reduced to fuzzy, feel good beliefs and obscure rituals.
 

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And what created the creator that created god?... and what created the creator that created the creator that created god?............ oh, my.

This is probably the question that started me on the road to atheism.

Yeah, it kind of simultaneously defeats the two "strongest" (not saying much) arguments in philosophy for God's existence, the cosmological and teleological arguments.
The former is that all things need a cause, but then magically there can be a first cause that wasn't itself caused, even though that directly contradicts the first assumption.
The latter is the argument from design which is really just a variant of the former, adding complexity to the mix, namely that all complexity must have been caused by something that had such complexity as a goal (and thus had a mind). But since such a mind is inherently complex, that mind would need a mind to have created it, ad infinitum.

At age 17, I took my first Philosophy course, I was exposed to these and the other 2 main arguments for God (ontological: There must be the greatest thing imaginable and whatever that is, its God; and Moral Law: Morals laws wouldn't exist without a law-maker). I wrote my thesis for the class on how pathetically bad and self-defeating all these were. Since they were presented as the best intellectual arguments anyone has come up with so far (and sadly they are), that sealed the deal for me in being an atheist. I had already started down that road at age 13, but that start was more about rejecting any notion of a God that was powerful and good, due to how almost every fact of the world contradicted these assumptions. I left a little room for a possible deistic creator God, up until that Philosophy course.
 

iolo

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Is Islam growing in the West? I can only answer for the UK, and the answer is no. Quite a number of Muslims are settling here, but the climate doesn't suit religion, though, as with the Irish settlers of the past, a tiny minority of the younger generation ignorantly attempt to find some connection with the past by adopting violence. All things pass.
 

C_Mucius_Scaevola

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Apparently, Islam is coming to the West to apostasize ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity

... or some of it, at least.
they are desperate refuges want to stay in the west

Some of them, no doubt, are faking conversion to help their asylum claims - the churches admit as much, if you read the article. But others, they say, are genuine converts. And who can blame them? Coming from lands where Islam is the majority religion and violence and/or war are part of daily life, I can understand why some might question the beliefs they learned there.
 
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