• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

It looks like inflation is here

Apparently the American Public is blaming Biden for the ongoing inflation.

For a long time, I pondered why Keynesians, Politicians, and Central Bankers all think some inflation is good but deflation is always bad. I've come to a conclusion - inflation helps the rich, deflation helps the poor.

Inflation and deflation are both bad. But not in equal measures. A small amount of inflation is tolerated because even a small amount of deflation is destructive in the modern economy because it forces debtors to pay back loans with money that is more valuable than the money that they received when they took out the loan.

Libertarians traditionally believe that deflation is desirable because it is a characteristic of a monetary system based on some assumed value of gold. Yet another denial of reality one has to assume to be a true® libertarian.
 
Inflation helps those with negative net worth, who see their debts reducing in value. Deflation helps those with positive net worth, who see their savings increase in value.

Inflation is good for the poor, and bad for the rich.

Sure, the upside to inflation is that wages eventually go up as well.

No, inflation is good for the rich, and bad for the poor. Deflation is the reverse. That's why politicians and bankers say deflation is the worst thing that could possibly happen to the country.

Deflation is bad for the poor as well. Just ponder the answer to this question, who is more likely to be in debt, the poor person or the rich person?
 
Apparently the American Public are blaming Biden for the ongoing inflation.

For a long time i pondered why Kenyesians, Politicians, and Central Bankers all think some inflation is good but deflation is always bad. I've come to a conclusion - inflation helps the rick, deflation helps the poor.

No. Inflation helps those who owe, it hurts those who lend.

The reason the bankers all think some inflation is good is that deflation is more harmful than inflation. The ideal state would be right at zero but the control isn't perfect--it's better to keep a small inflation rate to keep it from swinging into deflation.
 
Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

No. Inflation increases their capital gains--which increases the tax they pay, but doesn't actually increase the value of the money. The lower the inflation rate the better for the investor.
 
Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

No. Inflation increases their capital gains--which increases the tax they pay, but doesn't actually increase the value of the money. The lower the inflation rate the better for the investor.
That is ignores the advantage of unrealized capital gains. Unrealized capital gains basically defer taxes until they are realized. That allows for the a larger gain than if they were taxed annually.

So, depending on the length of the deferment, it is possible that inflation ends up helping an investor.
 
Inflation helps those with negative net worth, who see their debts reducing in value. Deflation helps those with positive net worth, who see their savings increase in value.

Inflation is good for the poor and bad for the rich.

Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

Yes, exactly. Inflation hurts savings, so even rich people avoid having money in savings.

The rich can protect themselves against inflation; The poor cannot similarly protect themselves against deflation. So even if we were neutral with respect to which of those two groups we should be helping, inflation would be preferable over deflation.

And of course most people are not neutral, and would lean towards helping the poor and letting the rich help themselves, rather than the other way about.
 
it's better to keep a small inflation rate to keep it from swinging into deflation.

That's better for the elite. Not necessarily better for everyone. That's why both the big parties love having some inflation.

Deflation isn't a doomsday scenario, contrary to Keynesian babble.

Prove it.

I for one am shocked to find a libertarian who has economics completely backwards.

Shocked, I tell you.

This is my shocked face.
 
Prove it.

I for one am shocked to find a libertarian who has economics completely backwards.

Shocked, I tell you.

This is my shocked face.

I wouldn't say deflation is bad per se. The causes of deflation are bad. It means large sections of society don't have the money to purchase goods and services, because of unemployment or other reasons.
 
Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

No. Inflation increases their capital gains--which increases the tax they pay, but doesn't actually increase the value of the money. The lower the inflation rate the better for the investor.
That is ignores the advantage of unrealized capital gains. Unrealized capital gains basically defer taxes until they are realized. That allows for the a larger gain than if they were taxed annually.

So, depending on the length of the deferment, it is possible that inflation ends up helping an investor.

Please explain your reasoning. What does unrealized capital gains have to do with it?
 
it's better to keep a small inflation rate to keep it from swinging into deflation.

That's better for the elite. Not necessarily better for everyone. That's why both the big parties love having some inflation.

Deflation isn't a doomsday scenario, contrary to Keynesian babble.

It's not doomsday, it's just a lot worse than inflation.

In deflation you can make money by sitting on your money, whereas investing it subjects it to deflation. This slows the economy, making more deflation.
 
it's better to keep a small inflation rate to keep it from swinging into deflation.

That's better for the elite. Not necessarily better for everyone. That's why both the big parties love having some inflation.

Deflation isn't a doomsday scenario, contrary to Keynesian babble.

It's not doomsday, it's just a lot worse than inflation.

In deflation you can make money by sitting on your money, whereas investing it subjects it to deflation. This slows the economy, making more deflation.

So, what you are saying is that it IS bad to be able to sit on your money to make money? I guess at least we are making SOME progress...
 
Apparently the American Public are blaming Biden for the ongoing inflation.

For a long time i pondered why Kenyesians, Politicians, and Central Bankers all think some inflation is good but deflation is always bad. I've come to a conclusion - inflation helps the rick, deflation helps the poor.

Who's Rick? He sounds like a dick. :D

Inflation driven by demand because more people have money to spend can be good if it doesn't get out of hand.

Inflation helps those with negative net worth, who see their debts reducing in value. Deflation helps those with positive net worth, who see their savings increase in value.

Inflation is good for the poor, and bad for the rich.

I'm not sure all the opinions in this thread are fully correct. :) For starters, let's dispel the illusion that the elite have some agenda to set an inflation rate to help a particular class. Instead a small (2%) inflation rate is targeted and that target has been largely successful over the past several decades. Reasons why 2% inflation is better than 0% have been listed up-thread.

Let me post a brief primer. Please respond if you think I have anything wrong.

There are two types of deflation:
(1) Falling prices can be caused by a surge in supply.
(2) Falling prices can be caused by a fall in demand.
The first type of deflation is generally good: it may reflect improved production methods, enhanced trade (e.g. built railroads), or new discoveries of raw materials. The second type is generally bad, it can result from loss of confidence, falling wages or unemployment.

For either inflation or deflation, four cases should be distinguished:
(1) last year's price changes
(2) next year's expected price changes due to a single event or due to ongoing but constant inflation
(3) deviation from next year's predicted prices
(4) a vicious cycle of on-going inflation

Last year's price changes, once factored in, are largely irrelevant to forward planning. Expected or predictable future price changes are also factored in; for example last year we knew that pandemic-related bottlenecks and high cash infusions would cause price hikes this year, and they have. Ho-hum. Dog bites man. Elvis Presley is still dead. And when inflation is expected, people can compensate by adjusting nominal interest rates, pegging contracts to CPI, etc.

It is unexpected inflation and vicious-cycle inflation which are troublesome. (Pegging contracts to CPI is one way to get such a vicious cycle.) The long-term threat to the dollar is not the recent pandemic or the stimulus itself, but ever-rising debt, both public and private. And this problem affects many countries, not just the U.S.

Finally, for most of history the world largely used precious metals as money, but now money is controlled by central banks. This makes it futile to compare 19th-century finance with finance today. Most central banks today are committed to a policy of stable prices (or rather a small and pre-announced inflation target) and have been largely successful. They exert their control on the economy largely by controlling short-term interest rates. From 1720 to 1960, on the gold standard, one measure of the U.K. prime interest rate never left the 2% - 5% range. But after Nixon abandoned the gold standard that interest rate exceeded 14% in 1974 and 1981, and has been under 1% for the most recent twelve years.

Thus price stability has been achieved at the cost of big fluctuations in interest rates. So it is future interest rates — NOT inflation rates — which are of concern to planners.

And because the world economy is so intertwined now, U.S. interest rate hikes to counter inflation will cause foreign investment capital to flood in, helping to keep the U.S. economy stimulated!

(I think what I've written above is a consensus view of most economists. I personally am old-fashioned or pessimistic enough to have a less sanguine view, but my own opinion has little or no value.)
 
Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

No. Inflation increases their capital gains--which increases the tax they pay, but doesn't actually increase the value of the money. The lower the inflation rate the better for the investor.

"Capital gain" is just a different name for inflation. Let me spell it out, your fantasy economics, Econ 101, says that inflation is bad for wages and consumer products, that is, increases in the price of those things. But Econ 101 also says that inflation is good in corporate stocks and real estate, that is, increases in the price of those things.

My reality economics says that both capital gain above the actual increase in the value of the corporation measured against say new investment or profits is inflation or speculation, both of which are bad. And that inflation in real estate is also bad because it increases housing costs for people who after all are the reason for the economy, to provide all of the people in society with goods and services that they need in a sustainable way, which in the case of the US is a mixed-mode capitalistic economy.

I can't make any sense out of your phrase "which increases the tax they pay but doesn't actually increase the value of the money."

Was this intended to be taken together or are they two random thoughts put together by an unneeded comma? [/gratuitous snark]

We all pay taxes on our increased incomes due to inflation which does devalue the money that we receive for actual work that we do. Do you think that investors who are earning income for their investments shouldn't be taxed on their passive income? I have to remind you that for most of the investors the capital gains tax is almost one-half of the tax that they would pay if they earned the income by actually working. In a just world, passive income would be taxed more than income earned by working for it. Passive income is also called "unearned income."

I do understand these things. I am an investor who benefits greatly from the inflation in the stock market and real estate. I just don't lie to myself about the nature of my income. Especially by making up economics that doesn't conform to reality to make me feel better about it.
 
it's better to keep a small inflation rate to keep it from swinging into deflation.

That's better for the elite. Not necessarily better for everyone. That's why both the big parties love having some inflation.

Deflation isn't a doomsday scenario, contrary to Keynesian babble.

So you don't believe that forcing a debtor to pay back a loan with money that is more valuable than the money that she received from the loan isn't corrosive to a capitalistic economy? If the debtor is a corporation they have to increase the return on the investment to pay back the loan, resulting in a more risk-averse and less dynamic economy. Or they have to take out another loan to pay back the original one. If the debtor is a consumer she will have to scale back her consumption to pay back the loan. Do you have in your pocket an industrial economy that is not based on consumption? Are you going lower wages as the money gets to be more valuable? People don't react well to that at all.

What are the benefits that you see to deflation? Or were you just babbling?
 
That is ignores the advantage of unrealized capital gains. Unrealized capital gains basically defer taxes until they are realized. That allows for the a larger gain than if they were taxed annually.

So, depending on the length of the deferment, it is possible that inflation ends up helping an investor.

Please explain your reasoning. What does unrealized capital gains have to do with it?
All capital gains are unrealized until the asset is sold. The point is that defering realization may negate your argument.
 
There are two types of deflation:
(1) Falling prices can be caused by a surge in supply.
(2) Falling prices can be caused by a fall in demand.
The first type of deflation is generally good: it may reflect improved production methods, enhanced trade (e.g. built railroads), or new discoveries of raw materials. The second type is generally bad, it can result from loss of confidence, falling wages or unemployment.

Third type of deflation: a decrease in the money supply.

So you don't believe that forcing a debtor to pay back a loan with money that is more valuable than the money that she received from the loan isn't corrosive to a capitalistic economy?

It is as "bad" and "corrosive" as forcing a lender to receive back a loan with money that is less valuable than the money she lent out.
 
There are two types of deflation:
(1) Falling prices can be caused by a surge in supply.
(2) Falling prices can be caused by a fall in demand.
The first type of deflation is generally good: it may reflect improved production methods, enhanced trade (e.g. built railroads), or new discoveries of raw materials. The second type is generally bad, it can result from loss of confidence, falling wages or unemployment.

Third type of deflation: a decrease in the money supply.

OK. But this is not a threat in the present U.S. situation. Any reduction of the money supply will simply eat into the vast excess reserve accounts held at the Fed. And even without that effect, reduced money in the face of continued demand may lead directly to an increase in money velocity. "Monetarism" is an over-worked paradigm, increasingly inapplicable to modern finance.
 
Inflation is good for the rich too. What is characterized as "capital gain" is really inflation. The rich don't have their money in savings accounts, they have it in stocks and bonds and in real estate. Or in collectibles, art, vintage cars, etc. These are savings that increase in value due to inflation. These are savings that the rich call investments to muddy the waters, but they aren't the economy-pleasing investments that grow the economy. The economy-pleasing investments are investments in production facilities that are in short supply in this time of offshoring production.

No. Inflation increases their capital gains--which increases the tax they pay, but doesn't actually increase the value of the money. The lower the inflation rate the better for the investor.

"Capital gain" is just a different name for inflation. Let me spell it out, your fantasy economics, Econ 101, says that inflation is bad for wages and consumer products, that is, increases in the price of those things. But Econ 101 also says that inflation is good in corporate stocks and real estate, that is, increases in the price of those things.

Huh?

You seem to be equating inflation with any change in price. That's not how it works--inflation is when prices in general rise. When a company can make more for its product it benefits. When the price of everything goes up it just pays that back out in labor and materials and does not benefit.

I can't make any sense out of your phrase "which increases the tax they pay but doesn't actually increase the value of the money."

The value of money is what you can buy with it, not the number of dollars you have.
 
Back
Top Bottom