It's not the guns

[bilby]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

You don’t appear to mean the same thing by ‘self defence’ that other people here, including me, mean.

I am strongly in favour of self defence, and strongly opposed to people being needlessly killed without due process, and that homicide then being swept under the carpet of “self defence”.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

How is this thread an example of hating self defense?

I don't think it's clear cut that even his first attack was justified--while there's no question he was shoved there was no follow-up. What would have happened if he had just remained where he had fallen? Second, the video cuts off--and videos that cut off before the action is clearly over are suspicious. The charges very well might be based on what happened afterwards--it's possible to go too far in what starts as legitimate self defense.

 

[ZiprHead]

I told the story but I think it was in another thread of my brother almost getting 5 years in prison after he put the boots to a guy after he was down.

 

[ZiprHead]

From the WaPo link:

Alba later told the police that Simon “wanted me to come apologize to the girl.” A video shows Simon shoving Alba into a wall inside the bodega. As the two fought, Alba grabbed a knife and stabbed Simon in the neck and chest at least five times, according to the complaint. “Simon fell to the ground, face-down and bleeding,” it said.
“I took the knife we use to open boxes and I stabbed him,” Alba told police.

The police, who reviewed security footage at the scene, said in the complaint that Simon’s girlfriend tried to pull Alba off Simon and “held the defendant’s right arm but the defendant continued to stab [him].” She then took out a knife from her purse and stabbed Alba in the arm, the complaint says.

To prove self-defense outside the home under New York law, a person must — broadly speaking — show that they used physical force “to avoid an imminent public or private injury,” in a situation not of their own making, “which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality,” the benefit of avoiding that injury outweighs the benefit of avoiding the use of physical force in the first place.
New York law also imposes a “duty to retreat.” This means that if someone believes they are in danger of imminent injury outside their home, they must first try to get out of that situation — by fleeing the scene, for example — before they respond. This is different from other states’ “stand your ground” laws.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

You don’t appear to mean the same thing by ‘self defence’ that other people here, including me, mean.

I am strongly in favour of self defence, and strongly opposed to people being needlessly killed without due process, and that homicide then being swept under the carpet of “self defence”.

Some people think it is so terrible when some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime by some poor horrible murderous victim daring to think he should be able to defend himself.

 

[Hermit]

Some people think it is so terrible when some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime by some poor horrible murderous victim daring to think he should be able to defend himself.

Nice hyperbole. Citation needed.

The case you started this thread off with is not an example of some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime by some poor horrible murderous victim daring to think he should be able to defend himself. Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around. To regard that as justifiable self defence is just bizarre.

 

[fromderinside]

Some people think it is so terrible when some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime by some poor horrible murderous victim daring to think he should be able to defend himself.

Nice hyperbole. Citation needed.

The case you started this thread off with is not an example of some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime by some poor horrible murderous victim daring to think he should be able to defend himself. Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around. To regard that as justifiable self defence is just bizarre.

... and lifting your arms to a defensive posture when some drunk is attacking you makes your assaulter legally justified in killing you.*

*eleventh anniversary of my youngest son's death

 

[Rhea]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

Jason, you keep making claims about what Libertarians do and don’t do. But I just gotta say, from personal experience, that there is one of you - defining behavior - and there are hundreds in my town - doing behavior - and you’re just not as right as you think you are about what Libertarians do and don’t believe.

 

[TomC]

Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around.

How is this different from "Simon went to the store to attack the staff. It didn't turn out well for him or anybody."?

Simon went there specifically to assault Alba. He could have just bought the chips his girlfriend wanted, but couldn't afford to pay for herself. Simon died over a bag of chips, and apparently the assumption that he could "push and shove people around".
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around.

How is this different from "Simon went to the store to attack the staff. It didn't turn out well for him or anybody."?

Unless you know tht Mr Simon was in the habit of attacking staff in general or that he went to the store with the intention of attacking the staff, the difference is in the phrase "doing his job of crime".

 

[laughing dog]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

Jason, you keep making claims about what Libertarians do and don’t do. But I just gotta say, from personal experience, that there is one of you - defining behavior - and there are hundreds in my town - doing behavior - and you’re just not as right as you think you are about what Libertarians do and don’t believe.

You don't understand - those people may think they are libertarians, but they are not!!!!!

 

[Hermit]

Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around.

How is this different from "Simon went to the store to attack the staff. It didn't turn out well for him or anybody."?

Simon went there specifically to assault Alba. He could have just bought the chips his girlfriend wanted, but couldn't afford to pay for herself. Simon died over a bag of chips, and apparently the assumption that he could "push and shove people around".
Tom

One description of the event explicitly points out the incommensurability of the store clerk's reaction to being shoved around. The other tries to paper over it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around.

How is this different from "Simon went to the store to attack the staff. It didn't turn out well for him or anybody."?

Unless you know tht Mr Simon was in the habit of attacking staff in general or that he went to the store with the intention of attacking the staff, the difference is in the phrase "doing his job of crime".

Is there some reason to think he wasn't acting like he usually acted?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

See, this thread is a perfect example.

Here we have a clear cut example of how self defense is the target, not guns, and still people are saying "hurr durr libertarians want to shoot people" and thinking they are clever with their made up scenarios.

Guns are just the primary target of those who hate self defense.

Jason, you keep making claims about what Libertarians do and don’t do. But I just gotta say, from personal experience, that there is one of you - defining behavior - and there are hundreds in my town - doing behavior - and you’re just not as right as you think you are about what Libertarians do and don’t believe.

You don't understand - those people may think they are libertarians, but they are not!!!!!

All we know about them is that Rhea thinks they are. That has no bearing on what they believe, what they think, how they act, etc.

Of course, I'd trust Rhea's judgement on the subject over yours.

 

[laughing dog]

All we know about them is that Rhea thinks they are. That has no bearing on what they believe, what they think, how they act, etc.

Thanks for proving my point.

Of course, I'd trust Rhea's judgement on the subject over yours.

As would I.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I am glad we agree on your judgement.

 

[Hermit]

Austin Simon was not "some poor innocent criminal is killed just doing his job of crime" at the time of the incident. Jose Alba killed an unarmed man who pushed and shoved him around.

How is this different from "Simon went to the store to attack the staff. It didn't turn out well for him or anybody."?

Unless you know tht Mr Simon was in the habit of attacking staff in general or that he went to the store with the intention of attacking the staff, the difference is in the phrase "doing his job of crime".

Is there some reason to think he wasn't acting like he usually acted?

Jose Alba did not know Austin Simon's criminal record, and it was not why he stabbed the unarmed assailant five times. But, yeah, charges have been dropped. Alba walks free. America rejoices.

 

[laughing dog]

Is there some reason to think he wasn't acting like he usually acted?

Is there some rational reason to think that is the way he usually acted?

 

[Rhea]

All we know about them is that Rhea thinks they are. That has no bearing on what they believe, what they think, how they act, etc.

When someone tells me that they are a Libertarian, I believe them
When they make a web page about it, naming their ideology and describing their beliefs, I believe them.
When they pull guns on people who go on their property, I take note of how they act.
When they make their threats in writing and mail them around town, I take note of how they act.
When they stand in front of me, shouting about their ideology, I hear them.
When my employee, the town police officer, tells me what they said to him, I believe him.

Just FYI.

 

[atrib]

From the WaPo link:

Alba later told the police that Simon “wanted me to come apologize to the girl.” A video shows Simon shoving Alba into a wall inside the bodega. As the two fought, Alba grabbed a knife and stabbed Simon in the neck and chest at least five times, according to the complaint. “Simon fell to the ground, face-down and bleeding,” it said.
“I took the knife we use to open boxes and I stabbed him,” Alba told police.

The police, who reviewed security footage at the scene, said in the complaint that Simon’s girlfriend tried to pull Alba off Simon and “held the defendant’s right arm but the defendant continued to stab [him].” She then took out a knife from her purse and stabbed Alba in the arm, the complaint says.

To prove self-defense outside the home under New York law, a person must — broadly speaking — show that they used physical force “to avoid an imminent public or private injury,” in a situation not of their own making, “which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality,” the benefit of avoiding that injury outweighs the benefit of avoiding the use of physical force in the first place.
New York law also imposes a “duty to retreat.” This means that if someone believes they are in danger of imminent injury outside their home, they must first try to get out of that situation — by fleeing the scene, for example — before they respond. This is different from other states’ “stand your ground” laws.

There is no duty to retreat inside your own home. See 2.a.1 of the law you linked to. The law also allows the use of lethal force against burglars who do not necessarily present an immediate threat to you.