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Jason's or the LP's stance on money creation

@Jason Harvestdancer -- it looks like you and I are the only ones who even know what the thread is about! The thread is NOT about "Seventeen Infidels give 17 different definitions of money": Please start a new thread to compare the 17 definitions.

This thread is about
(1) How does the present-day (FRB-based) system of money creation in the U.S.A. actually work?
(2) What should replace the FRB system if LP, Ted Cruz, et al have their way and abolish the FRB?

Jason: You know the thread topic, yet still haven't answered (2).
That's okay, I wanted to cover the basics before I got to it and I intend to get to it now.

This may surprise you, but I don't consider the Federal Reserve to be the ultimate culprit. Libertarians aren't the only ones who dislike the Federal Reserve, there are some on the farther left who want to nationalize it and have the Treasury perform the same basic function, and even though we agree with them that the Fed is bad I disagree with them fiercely.

The real culprit is Legal Tender laws. In the United States, the dollar is legal tender, which means you must accept it as payment of a debt. In England it is the Pound. In most of Europe it is the Euro. Et Cetera. We could easily switch from the Federal Reserve issuing Legal Tender to the Treasury issuing Legal Tender and that would result in basically no changes at all. Especially if the new Treasury Legal Tender is just as unbacked as the current specie. One could easily do a one-to-one swap due to mostly swapping notations in a computer and slowly retiring the remaining Federal Reserve Notes.

If Legal Tender laws are removed, and here is your answer, then what would function as money is whatever people want to function as money. That's the whole reason I mentioned Snickers and cigarettes, to illustrate the variability available.

Up until the Federal Reserve, the United States used Treasury Notes backed by silver. Banks also issued their own currency, which did lead to the issue of Wildcat Banks. The key point about those Wildcat Banks is that you weren't required to accept their currency. If someone offers you currency from Mutual of Bob you are free to tell them to pound sand and pay you in real money.

Back in the days of silver treasury notes, in countries outside the US the dollar was worth less than it was inside the US. Partly because the US wasn't as great a power back then, so people didn't necessarily trust it. Also because Pound Sterling was the world currency at the time. I recall a statistic that said a US Dollar in India was worth half of a US Dollar in the US.

Of course you could accept payment from Mutual of Bob if you wished. You are free to say "Hmm, 100 Treasury notes or 1000 Mutual of Bob notes. If the Mutual of Bob notes are actually good I'll be considerably more wealthy."

Here is one of the most important points of this answer: the lack of a central plan is a feature, not a bug, of not having a central plan. I trust people to work things out on their own, and wonder why few others do.
 
Thanks for answering, Jason! My respect for you has gone UP. Without mentioning names, some in this (or a nearby) thread offer nothing but snark and pointless quibbles; my respect for them has gone DOWN.

In the OP of "History of Money" I distinguished bank-created money from fiat money; I did so for a reason.

Whatever faults they may have, or scope for fraud, private banks revolutionized commerce. Certain inventions -- the printing press, steam engines, the light-bulb -- are given special credit for changing primitive society into the modern industrial world. I wonder if bank-created money -- sometimes (confusingly?) referred to as "fractional-reserve banking" -- should be added to the list of such key inventions!
With fiat money, a ruler may print notes not backed by anything, and pass them out willy-nilly to friends, vendors, and voters. But bank-created money has a different character. Banks do not GIVE money away, as the dictator with a printing press might; they only LEND money and expect it to be paid back. The bank-created money, unlike fiat money, is BACKED by something, even if the only backing is the debt instrument signed by the borrower.

Of course it's possible for banks to operate illegally, print money willy-nilly and pass it out to their friends -- cf. the S&L crisis during the Reagan Administration -- so PROPER banking requires personal integrity and/or government regulation. HOW has this propriety largely been maintained over the centuries? Can we expect this to continue? These are important questions we may want to take up.

Properly-run banks operate with a BALANCE SHEET:
Assets (minus Loan Loss Allowances) = Liabilities + Capital
Banks do NOT create money willy-nilly; the created money appears as a LIABILITY on their balance sheet. Unlike many corporations, the "market cap" of a bank is usually close in value to the "Capital" on their balance sheet.

The earliest central banks were themselves private banks, distinguished mainly by sheer size, which maintained balance sheets exactly like private banks. Money created by central banks appears as liability on their balance sheets, and is backed by assets. The similarities and differences between random private banks and central banks with official status are much discussed (e.g. in Central banking and finance: the Bank of England and the Bank Act of 1844) BUT when contemplating money creation it is best to remember that central banks function mechanically like ordinary private banks. The FedRes Banks are still nominally owned by member private banks; the Bank of England was not nationalized until 1946.


The real culprit is Legal Tender laws. In the United States, the dollar is legal tender, which means you must accept it as payment of a debt....

If Legal Tender laws are removed, and here is your answer, then what would function as money is whatever people want to function as money. That's the whole reason I mentioned Snickers and cigarettes, to illustrate the variability available.

"I've got banknotes issued by the State of California. Can I pay a week's rent with them?"
-- You in Arkansas boy. We take Califunkey notes at 60 cents on the dollar!
"In California, it's the Arkansas notes that are worth 60 cents on the dollar."
-- Ya ain't in Califunkey now boy. Y'all got bullets? What caliber? Mamie's Inn up the road uses bullets for money ...

It was 5000 years ago that a single commodity became standardized as the single measure of money. With the rise of commerce, this standardization became more and more useful. I do not see utter chaos as a good alternative.

And the idea of taking the power of regulating short-term interest rates and monitoring banks' financial prudence away from the FedRes and giving it to Treasury confuses me. Presumably Jason does NOT mean keeping a central bank like the one we have but just giving it a different name. Instead he must mean a government authority which operates on different principles.

The FedRes operates as a proper central bank; it is mandated to bolster the economy in specific ways;
  • Stabilizing the value of the currency. (In Jason's model different types of money would fluctuate in value relative to each other, interfering with commerce.)
  • Stabilizing short-term interest rates.
  • Functioning as a Lender of Last Resort. Without such a last-resort lender, how could a severe liquidity crisis be resolved? Issuing fiat money is a recipe for hyper-inflation.

I'm afraid that some will argue that we already have inflation in the present system so we may as well use fiat money ("printing-press money") anyway. This is WRONG. I will probably go into more detail about this in a future post.

Up until the Federal Reserve, the United States used Treasury Notes backed by silver. Banks also issued their own currency, which did lead to the issue of Wildcat Banks. The key point about those Wildcat Banks is that you weren't required to accept their currency. If someone offers you currency from Mutual of Bob you are free to tell them to pound sand and pay you in real money.

"I don't have no bullets. This is so frustrating I want to go back to Califunkey, as you call it, but need money for gasoline. What do iPhones trade at here?"
-- Thirty dollars. Jesse down at the ammo store might give you a few boxes of bullets for it.
"It's worth a lot more than that. And what am I going to do with bullets?"
-- We're down-to-earth folk here in Arkansas. You best drive to N'Orleans or some other big city you wanna try to sell an iPhone.
-- If ya got BitCoins or MagaCoins, Jesse will sell ya bullets. MagaCoins also accepted at the saloon if ya wanna party.

Here is one of the most important points of this answer: the lack of a central plan is a feature, not a bug, of not having a central plan. I trust people to work things out on their own, and wonder why few others do.

So millions of Americans will "vote" with their pocketbooks and decide whether iPhones, metal coins, beanie babies, Bitcoins, Califunkey bank-notes or MAGA hats are the best unit of money with which to calibrate commerce!? You're right: You do "trust people" more than many of us do.
 
This may surprise you, but I don't consider the Federal Reserve to be the ultimate culprit. ...

The real culprit is Legal Tender laws. In the United States, the dollar is legal tender, which means you must accept it as payment of a debt. In England it is the Pound. ...

If Legal Tender laws are removed, and here is your answer, then what would function as money is whatever people want to function as money. That's the whole reason I mentioned Snickers and cigarettes, to illustrate the variability available.

Up until the Federal Reserve, the United States used Treasury Notes backed by silver. Banks also issued their own currency, which did lead to the issue of Wildcat Banks. The key point about those Wildcat Banks is that you weren't required to accept their currency. If someone offers you currency from Mutual of Bob you are free to tell them to pound sand and pay you in real money. ...

Here is one of the most important points of this answer: the lack of a central plan is a feature, not a bug, of not having a central plan. I trust people to work things out on their own, and wonder why few others do.
But Legal Tender laws don't actually do anything that hasn't already been done by English Common Law since the middle ages. The laws don't say you must accept government currency as payment of a debt; they say if you don't accept it then the courts will consider the debt null and void. So what would happen if there were no Legal Tender law? Let's say it's early modern England between the invention of cigarettes and the invention of Legal Tender laws, and you have a contract with someone that says for services rendered he owes you a thousand cigarettes. He doesn't pay you, so you sue him. What's the judge going to do, order him to deliver a thousand cigarettes? That would be "specific performance"; Common Law courts don't do that. The judge will find him in breach of contract, calculate how much his breach damaged you, and enter a judgment against him for the damages. I.e., the court will order him to pay you some number of pounds. And that's no big deal -- if you don't want the pounds you take them anyway and go buy a thousand cigarettes with them. If you dive down into the Legal Tender cases in the 1800s and early 1900s, whether people must accept greenbacks was never the real issue in controversy -- the actual issue being fought over was always how many greenbacks it would take to settle the debt. Like the old joke goes, we've already established that we're all whores to fiat currency; now we're just haggling over the price.

For Legal Tender laws to have any significant effect they have to be combined with price controls. People didn't want to accept greenbacks at par because they weren't worth as much as gold coins, and the U.S. government pretended they were. After the Legal Tender laws were enacted people used to work around them by writing "gold clauses" into their contracts, saying you owe me $1000 assuming gold remains at $20 an ounce, but if gold goes up then you have to pay me enough dollars to buy 50 ounces of gold. So the U.S. put a price control on gold -- it ordered everyone to treat $20 as if it were worth an ounce of gold and trade dollars and gold at that exchange rate. Then it printed more greenbacks, raised the price of gold to $35, outlawed gold ownership, outlawed gold clauses, got the SCOTUS to cancel all existing gold clauses, and paid off its own debts as if a greenback were still worth 1/20 of an ounce of gold. That's what Legal Tender litigation was actually about: the price controls.

The point of all this pedantry is, the U.S. is no longer in that sort of price control business. Gold clauses in contracts were relegalized in 1977. Anybody who wants to go back to the gold standard now can, if his trading partner agrees. And if people want to buy and sell for Snickers, there's nothing stopping them. Sure, the courts will still let people pay their debts in dollars instead of Snickers if they want, but if the contract says Snickers the court will convert that into dollars at fair market value, not at some arbitrary figure made up by politicians. So the creditor won't get screwed. (Probably wouldn't work with cigarettes, due to the federal tax on them.)

So the central plan is de facto just a guideline. Our current system already has the feature/non-bug you want -- people get to work things out on their own. If few do, it's because the dollar is pretty good at its job for the moment -- it's the world's reserve currency and it's been responsibly managed for almost fifty years, so contracting around the Legal Tender laws isn't typically worth the effort. Sometimes it is and then people do it. We haven't seen an explosion of gold clauses in contracts because there are new ways to achieve the same effect. If you buy an annuity and you're worried inflation will render it a bad investment, you can specify in the contract that the payout in dollars will be tied to rises in the Consumer Price Index. (Of course annuity sellers charge a higher price in return for taking the inflation risk off your hands, but then people charged more for gold clauses too back when those were a thing.)
 
This may surprise you, but I don't consider the Federal Reserve to be the ultimate culprit. ...

The real culprit is Legal Tender laws. In the United States, the dollar is legal tender, which means you must accept it as payment of a debt. In England it is the Pound. ...

If Legal Tender laws are removed, and here is your answer, then what would function as money is whatever people want to function as money. That's the whole reason I mentioned Snickers and cigarettes, to illustrate the variability available.

Up until the Federal Reserve, the United States used Treasury Notes backed by silver. Banks also issued their own currency, which did lead to the issue of Wildcat Banks. The key point about those Wildcat Banks is that you weren't required to accept their currency. If someone offers you currency from Mutual of Bob you are free to tell them to pound sand and pay you in real money. ...

Here is one of the most important points of this answer: the lack of a central plan is a feature, not a bug, of not having a central plan. I trust people to work things out on their own, and wonder why few others do.
But Legal Tender laws don't actually do anything that hasn't already been done by English Common Law since the middle ages. The laws don't say you must accept government currency as payment of a debt; they say if you don't accept it then the courts will consider the debt null and void. So what would happen if there were no Legal Tender law? Let's say it's early modern England between the invention of cigarettes and the invention of Legal Tender laws, and you have a contract with someone that says for services rendered he owes you a thousand cigarettes. He doesn't pay you, so you sue him. What's the judge going to do, order him to deliver a thousand cigarettes? That would be "specific performance"; Common Law courts don't do that. The judge will find him in breach of contract, calculate how much his breach damaged you, and enter a judgment against him for the damages. I.e., the court will order him to pay you some number of pounds. And that's no big deal -- if you don't want the pounds you take them anyway and go buy a thousand cigarettes with them. If you dive down into the Legal Tender cases in the 1800s and early 1900s, whether people must accept greenbacks was never the real issue in controversy -- the actual issue being fought over was always how many greenbacks it would take to settle the debt. Like the old joke goes, we've already established that we're all whores to fiat currency; now we're just haggling over the price.

For Legal Tender laws to have any significant effect they have to be combined with price controls. People didn't want to accept greenbacks at par because they weren't worth as much as gold coins, and the U.S. government pretended they were. After the Legal Tender laws were enacted people used to work around them by writing "gold clauses" into their contracts, saying you owe me $1000 assuming gold remains at $20 an ounce, but if gold goes up then you have to pay me enough dollars to buy 50 ounces of gold. So the U.S. put a price control on gold -- it ordered everyone to treat $20 as if it were worth an ounce of gold and trade dollars and gold at that exchange rate. Then it printed more greenbacks, raised the price of gold to $35, outlawed gold ownership, outlawed gold clauses, got the SCOTUS to cancel all existing gold clauses, and paid off its own debts as if a greenback were still worth 1/20 of an ounce of gold. That's what Legal Tender litigation was actually about: the price controls.

The point of all this pedantry is, the U.S. is no longer in that sort of price control business. Gold clauses in contracts were relegalized in 1977. Anybody who wants to go back to the gold standard now can, if his trading partner agrees. And if people want to buy and sell for Snickers, there's nothing stopping them. Sure, the courts will still let people pay their debts in dollars instead of Snickers if they want, but if the contract says Snickers the court will convert that into dollars at fair market value, not at some arbitrary figure made up by politicians. So the creditor won't get screwed. (Probably wouldn't work with cigarettes, due to the federal tax on them.)

So the central plan is de facto just a guideline. Our current system already has the feature/non-bug you want -- people get to work things out on their own. If few do, it's because the dollar is pretty good at its job for the moment -- it's the world's reserve currency and it's been responsibly managed for almost fifty years, so contracting around the Legal Tender laws isn't typically worth the effort. Sometimes it is and then people do it. We haven't seen an explosion of gold clauses in contracts because there are new ways to achieve the same effect. If you buy an annuity and you're worried inflation will render it a bad investment, you can specify in the contract that the payout in dollars will be tied to rises in the Consumer Price Index. (Of course annuity sellers charge a higher price in return for taking the inflation risk off your hands, but then people charged more for gold clauses too back when those were a thing.)
Yeah but the FRB is EVIL!!!!!!
 
Thanks for answering, Jason! My respect for you has gone UP. Without mentioning names, some in this (or a nearby) thread offer nothing but snark and pointless quibbles; my respect for them has gone DOWN.

The reason I took more than one post to do it is if I simply wrote "they can use whatever they want" in the first post you likely would have thought I was being flippant. I wanted to cover the ground sufficiently so that you could see my answer was serious.

So millions of Americans will "vote" with their pocketbooks and decide whether iPhones, metal coins, beanie babies, Bitcoins, Califunkey bank-notes or MAGA hats are the best unit of money with which to calibrate commerce!? You're right: You do "trust people" more than many of us do.

Quite frankly belief that people can work things out for themselves is a huge part of libertarianism.
 
So millions of Americans will "vote" with their pocketbooks and decide whether iPhones, metal coins, beanie babies, Bitcoins, Califunkey bank-notes or MAGA hats are the best unit of money with which to calibrate commerce!? You're right: You do "trust people" more than many of us do.

Quite frankly belief that people can work things out for themselves is a huge part of libertarianism.

The idea that people can invent, and widely agree on a successful new sort of money by themselves seems unlikely to me. Except for the invention of precious-metal money 5000 years ago, and other intrinsic-worth money (e.g. tobacco) I don't think there has EVER been a successful invention of money. (Here I set aside fiat moneys which led to rampant inflation, and bank-created money which evolved naturally rather than being "invented.")

Do you imagine that there will be community meetings where people suggest ways to re-invent money? If you were at such a meeting, what suggestions would you offer? I don't want to read that there are 179 different flavors of money to choose from. I'd be happy to read about just ONE that seems plausible.

(I read that some countries are now planning to use crypto-currency as their legal tender! This seems very weird to me! Any good papers to discuss why this approach makes sense?)[/I]
 

(I read that some countries are now planning to use crypto-currency as their legal tender! This seems very weird to me! Any good papers to discuss why this approach makes sense?)
"In 2021, in order to promote financial inclusion and job creation and facilitate remittances, El Salvedor became the first country to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender."

And so far, bitcoin seems to be working just fine for them. At some point in the future I would expect bitcoin to become far less volatile especially if more and more of the world uses it. In theory, assuming this crypto currency never gets hacked (which it hasn't thus far) it will possess qualities of an extremely stable world wide legal tender not able to be controlled by any national or local government or dictator. We would live in a utopic world without inflation and most likely a small amount of deflation driven by productivity gains. But before such a utopia can happen I would expect the US to do their very best to prevent their widespread use of today's fed reserve currency.
 
OK. I've made NO attempt to keep up to date. If you asked for anecdotes about neural networks, image processing or data compression, my stories would date to the 1990's. Mainframe circuit design topics? 1970's. It's a running joke with my kids. They know contemporary American slang better than I do. I know nothing of 21st-century music except Taylor Swift, and discovered her only very recently.

Is BRICS also planning some sort of crypto money?
Think of me as a visitor from the 20th century.


And I've only just now heard of El Salvador's BitCoin experiment. But what is it, really?

Wiki suggests that U.S. dollars were the money in El Salvador 2001-2021. Is that correct? I assume prices are still shown in dollars? Are we waiting to see how many contracts are revised to measure money in BitCoin? Do they have a (dollar/bitcoin) bimetalism ?!! as major western powers had (with gold/silver) during much of the 19th century? It seems safe to assume that they do NOT hope to maintain a fixed exchange rate between these two "metals"! :cool: :cool: The El Salvadoran government could go through its reserve quite quickly, if it committed itself to paying BitC while still collecting dollars in taxes and tariffs.

I'll need to see details before I agree that they've replaced their old money (USD?) with BitCoin-as-money.

For that's what "money" is all about -- defining a unit of money
which can be specified in contracts. Are employment contracts, house/auto sales still defined in dollars in El Salvador? When, if ever, might we expect that to change?

If an El Salvadoran wants to pay his tax in BitCoin instead of dollar, what would he do exactly? If some form of BitCoin becomes the active currency, I suppose it would be "bank-created" with central bank or treasury managing this money. Surely interactions with the blockchain would be avoided due to costs and latency.

Or -- asking generally of people who favor crypto-money -- should the BitCoin, if any, just be part of some central-bank/treasury's foreign reserve, with the government implementing its own cryptocurrency?

I THINK I understand basic principles of BitCoin. But I know nothing about other crypto-money implementations, and nothing about implementation parameters best suited to its use as legal tender.

Wikipedia suggests that El Salvador is patting itself on the back for buying $150M of BitCoin at $44K back in 2021. They're happy that this is finally showing a profit. Yes, that's $150M with only an M; about $22 per El Salvadoran citizen, much less than 1% of GDP.

(I read that some countries are now planning to use crypto-currency as their legal tender! This seems very weird to me! Any good papers to discuss why this approach makes sense?)
"In 2021, in order to promote financial inclusion and job creation and facilitate remittances, El Salvador became the first country to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender.Jan 29, 2024"

And so far, bitcoin seems to be working just fine for them. At some point in the future I would expect bitcoin to become far less volatile especially if more and more of the world uses it. In theory, assuming this crypto currency never gets hacked it would have the makings of an extremely stable world wide legal tender not able to be controlled by any entity. We would live in a utopic world without inflation and most likely a small amount of deflation driven by productivity gains. But before that happens I would expect the US to do everything possible to prevent the their widespread use of fed dollars.

[Jason -- I think you wrote "prevent" where "maintain" was intended]
 
If an El Salvadoran wants to pay his tax in BitCoin instead of dollar, what would he do exactly? If some form of BitCoin becomes the active currency, I suppose it would be "bank-created" with central bank or treasury managing this money. Surely interactions with the blockchain would be avoided due to costs and latency.


You would pay your tax the same way you pay anyone else who accepts bitcoin. And unlike a conventional currency the receiver who accepts bitcoin knows instantly real money has made it to their account, unlike a check or money order that still has to clear through a third party. Bitcoin is its own central bank. So if everyone adopted bitcoin there would be far less costs and latency due to no third party handlers.
 
"In 2021, in order to promote financial inclusion and job creation and facilitate remittances, El Salvador became the first country to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender.Jan 29, 2024"

And so far, bitcoin seems to be working just fine for them. At some point in the future I would expect bitcoin to become far less volatile especially if more and more of the world uses it. In theory, assuming this crypto currency never gets hacked it would have the makings of an extremely stable world wide legal tender not able to be controlled by any entity. We would live in a utopic world without inflation and most likely a small amount of deflation driven by productivity gains. But before that happens I would expect the US to do everything possible to prevent the their widespread use of fed dollars.

[Jason -- I think you wrote "prevent" where "maintain" was intended]
You are correct, my bad.
 
So millions of Americans will "vote" with their pocketbooks and decide whether iPhones, metal coins, beanie babies, Bitcoins, Califunkey bank-notes or MAGA hats are the best unit of money with which to calibrate commerce!? You're right: You do "trust people" more than many of us do.

Quite frankly belief that people can work things out for themselves is a huge part of libertarianism.

The idea that people can invent, and widely agree on a successful new sort of money by themselves seems unlikely to me. Except for the invention of precious-metal money 5000 years ago, and other intrinsic-worth money (e.g. tobacco) I don't think there has EVER been a successful invention of money. (Here I set aside fiat moneys which led to rampant inflation, and bank-created money which evolved naturally rather than being "invented.")

Do you imagine that there will be community meetings where people suggest ways to re-invent money? If you were at such a meeting, what suggestions would you offer? I don't want to read that there are 179 different flavors of money to choose from. I'd be happy to read about just ONE that seems plausible.

(I read that some countries are now planning to use crypto-currency as their legal tender! This seems very weird to me! Any good papers to discuss why this approach makes sense?)

Of course if it arises spontaneously, it won't be my people sitting around in a meeting. At first there may actually be 179 different flavors, but ultimately a few will win out over the others. It wasn't because daddy said so that the kids wound up choosing mini-snickers as their medium of exchange during candy trading. Nor was it because they all sat down and said "okay, which of these will we use to decide how to trade candy?" It just evolved during the trading as it was noticed that there were enough of them to facilitate trading and most kids liked this particular candy.
 
If an El Salvadoran wants to pay his tax in BitCoin instead of dollar, what would he do exactly? If some form of BitCoin becomes the active currency, I suppose it would be "bank-created" with central bank or treasury managing this money. Surely interactions with the blockchain would be avoided due to costs and latency.


You would pay your tax the same way you pay anyone else who accepts bitcoin. And unlike a conventional currency the receiver who accepts bitcoin knows instantly real money has made it to their account, unlike a check or money order that still has to clear through a third party. Bitcoin is its own central bank. So if everyone adopted bitcoin there would be far less costs and latency due to no third party handlers.

Am I wrong that any BitCoin transactions citizen-to-bank or citizen-to-government would most probably use proxies for BitCoins (like "exchange") rather than any actual BlockChain transaction? We're speaking of El Salvador specifically.
 
At first there may actually be 179 different flavors [of money], but ultimately a few will win out over the others. It wasn't because daddy said so that the kids wound up choosing mini-snickers as their medium of exchange during candy trading. Nor was it because they all sat down and said "okay, which of these will we use to decide how to trade candy?" It just evolved during the trading as it was noticed that there were enough of them to facilitate trading and most kids liked this particular candy.

Even if this approach would work out eventually, would not this promote a chaotic period? If I'm in California planning a trip to Oregon I'll need to know whether they're currently using dollars, bollars, follars, collars, or wollars.

ETA: Anyway, wouldn't the mandate of the tax man -- which currency HE wants to be paid in -- have a special priority? Or are we to take for granted that taxes are all abolished in any post-FRB utopia?
 
Even if this approach would work out eventually, would not this promote a chaotic period? If I'm in California planning a trip to Oregon I'll need to know whether they're currently using dollars, bollars, follars, collars, or wollars.

We might assume that a "white knight", e.g. Elon Musk, will come along offering to speed the transition with his high-tech MuskMoney. Details might get interesting, but a large rent trap might be created. Instead of and/or in addition to Musk, key influencers who might "join in public service to speed the consensus for next-generation money" might include Zuckerberg and even the residues of Trump family's criminal connections (utin, MBS, etc.).

Yes, this will make a good political thriller. In reaction to continued political chaos during 2025-2028, a Libertarian Party emerges and sweeps to victory in November 2028. Fearing they may be thrown out of office four, or even two, years later they hurry to make irrevocable changes. They announce that towns, people, companies, whoever are encouraged to invent their own moneys. And that the FRB system will be phased out. I don't want to put words in their mouths: How many years of advance notice would the LP provide for the dissolution of the FRB?
[Jason -- I think you wrote "prevent" where "maintain" was intended]
You are correct, my bad.

No, MY bad, calling Mr, RVonse "Jason." apologies to all!
 
The laws don't say you must accept government currency as payment of a debt; they say if you don't accept it then the courts will consider the debt null and void.

What a huge difference.
Hey man, I did say I was being pedantic. The sentence you quote wasn't the point of my post; it was just one small step in the explanation of why Legal Tender laws aren't what stopped people from working things out on their own.

If you regard "if you don't accept it then the courts won't enforce the debt" as equivalent to "you must accept it", fine, I can work with that. From that point of view, case-law had already been making creditors accept government currency for about seven hundred years; if you object then your beef is with judges' overall unwillingness to order "specific performance", not with Legal Tender laws. People didn't litigate the Legal Tender laws because they didn't want government currency; quite the reverse -- they litigated because they wanted more of it.

If you need to boil my whole post down and only address one sentence...

Gold clauses in contracts were relegalized in 1977.​

That is the whole post; the rest is commentary. ;)
 
The current monetary system is the result of people working through the political process to achieve a workable system. Most money is private money through the financial system. People can use barter or bitcoin ir whatevee they want.
 
People can use barter or bitcoin ir whatevee they want.
That would only be true in El Salvador.

In the US the federal government requires taxes be paid only by US currency.
 
@Jason Harvestdancer -- it looks like you and I are the only ones who even know what the thread is about! The thread is NOT about "Seventeen Infidels give 17 different definitions of money": Please start a new thread to compare the 17 definitions.

This thread is about
(1) How does the present-day (FRB-based) system of money creation in the U.S.A. actually work?
(2) What should replace the FRB system if LP, Ted Cruz, et al have their way and abolish the FRB?

Jason: You know the thread topic, yet still haven't answered (2).
That's okay, I wanted to cover the basics before I got to it and I intend to get to it now.

This may surprise you, but I don't consider the Federal Reserve to be the ultimate culprit. Libertarians aren't the only ones who dislike the Federal Reserve, there are some on the farther left who want to nationalize it and have the Treasury perform the same basic function, and even though we agree with them that the Fed is bad I disagree with them fiercely.

The real culprit is Legal Tender laws. In the United States, the dollar is legal tender, which means you must accept it as payment of a debt. In England it is the Pound. In most of Europe it is the Euro. Et Cetera. We could easily switch from the Federal Reserve issuing Legal Tender to the Treasury issuing Legal Tender and that would result in basically no changes at all. Especially if the new Treasury Legal Tender is just as unbacked as the current specie. One could easily do a one-to-one swap due to mostly swapping notations in a computer and slowly retiring the remaining Federal Reserve Notes.

If Legal Tender laws are removed, and here is your answer, then what would function as money is whatever people want to function as money. That's the whole reason I mentioned Snickers and cigarettes, to illustrate the variability available.

Up until the Federal Reserve, the United States used Treasury Notes backed by silver. Banks also issued their own currency, which did lead to the issue of Wildcat Banks. The key point about those Wildcat Banks is that you weren't required to accept their currency. If someone offers you currency from Mutual of Bob you are free to tell them to pound sand and pay you in real money.

Back in the days of silver treasury notes, in countries outside the US the dollar was worth less than it was inside the US. Partly because the US wasn't as great a power back then, so people didn't necessarily trust it. Also because Pound Sterling was the world currency at the time. I recall a statistic that said a US Dollar in India was worth half of a US Dollar in the US.

Of course you could accept payment from Mutual of Bob if you wished. You are free to say "Hmm, 100 Treasury notes or 1000 Mutual of Bob notes. If the Mutual of Bob notes are actually good I'll be considerably more wealthy."

Here is one of the most important points of this answer: the lack of a central plan is a feature, not a bug, of not having a central plan. I trust people to work things out on their own, and wonder why few others do.
How in the world does tribal law not ensue a plan like this? If the idea is to never have to pay any tax, then you have basically gutted any idea of a state. "Hooray" you say - but I'm not sure you can own enough guns to protect yourself from the Mad Max adventure that follows.

What am I missing? What replaces the collective agreement that we don't don't rip each others faces off for a loaf of bread? Is this a desirable world to some? How long until we speak the language of our overlords? 2 days? 5?
 
People can use barter or bitcoin ir whatevee they want.
That would only be true in El Salvador.

In the US the federal government requires taxes be paid only by US currency.
It's their money, and their taxes.

Why should they accept anything else in payment of their taxes?
 
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