Jews Against Jesus

[Unknown Soldier]

There's a radical group made up of cruel unbelievers who are actively going after poor, defenseless Christians who only want to be left alone to enjoy their faith. These attackers are on the internet telling Christians that many of their core beliefs are untrue, and many Christians have lost their faith as a result of being exposed to these attacks.

If you think I'm talking about atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins criticizing Christian beliefs, then you would only be partly correct. Atheists are not the only group that is reputedly causing Christians to leave their faith. Some of the outspoken critics of Christian beliefs are Jews who among other things are saying that Jesus was not the promised Messiah, and even if he was the Messiah, he is not and cannot be God. Or so says Rabbi Michael Skobac of "Jews for Judaism." Skobac and his group rose up as a response to efforts on the part of some Christian groups like Jews for Jesus to convert Jews to Christianity. Ironically, the efforts of Jews for Judaism to oppose Christian evangelization of Jews has led to many non-Jewish Christians to leave their faith realizing that what Christians have said about Jesus, in particular from a Jewish perspective, is false.

It looks like the efforts to evangelize Jews have backfired!

I'd recommend
MESSIANIC JEWS, Messianic Judaism & Jews for Jesus like one for israel •Exposé

 

[bilby]

How does this help to increase the application of reason over superstition?

Imagine that the UK has been taken over by an evil government that wants to leave the EU, privatise the NHS, and slash funding for schools, hospitals, firefighters, police, highway maintenance and other public services.*

Obviously, as they are still constrained by democracy, they need to distract the voters from their evil schemes. And they have the perfect distraction - football.

So everyone is talking football, and that's pushed discussion of important issues out of the public sphere. You are, of course, duty bound to persuade people to look at things other than football, to consider the other aspects of life when voting, and not to just pick the pro-Premier League candidates on the ballot.

So here you are, in a pub full of Manchester City fans, trying (with some, but not much) success, to persuade them that they should think of things other than Man City; That they should put their Man City fervour aside for just a few minutes, and look at non-football issues instead.

Then a mate comes over to your table with a huge grin.

"Great news!" he exclaims. "There's another guy over there who is successfully getting people to stop obsessing about Man City!"

"Wow, that is good news," you respond. "Are they finally turning to a discussion of real issues?"

"Well, not quite", your mate admits. "But they are now obsessing about West Ham United!".

As one who is concerned that football is dominating discussion to the exclusion of vital issues of real importance, would you be happy to hear about this reduction in obsessive support for Man City? Because I really don't see it as being a significant change at all.






*It's a hypothetical; Obviously that's not a thing that could actually happen**


**Oh, wait.
Shit.

 

[DBT]

The next step would be to question the teachings of Judaism, followed by religion in general and the role of faith as a prop.....

 

[Unknown Soldier]

How does this help to increase the application of reason over superstition?

Imagine that the UK has been taken over by an evil government that wants to leave the EU, privatise the NHS, and slash funding for schools, hospitals, firefighters, police, highway maintenance and other public services.*

Obviously, as they are still constrained by democracy, they need to distract the voters from their evil schemes. And they have the perfect distraction - football.

So everyone is talking football, and that's pushed discussion of important issues out of the public sphere. You are, of course, duty bound to persuade people to look at things other than football, to consider the other aspects of life when voting, and not to just pick the pro-Premier League candidates on the ballot.

So here you are, in a pub full of Manchester City fans, trying (with some, but not much) success, to persuade them that they should think of things other than Man City; That they should put their Man City fervour aside for just a few minutes, and look at non-football issues instead.

Then a mate comes over to your table with a huge grin.

"Great news!" he exclaims. "There's another guy over there who is successfully getting people to stop obsessing about Man City!"

"Wow, that is good news," you respond. "Are they finally turning to a discussion of real issues?"

"Well, not quite", your mate admits. "But they are now obsessing about West Ham United!".

As one who is concerned that football is dominating discussion to the exclusion of vital issues of real importance, would you be happy to hear about this reduction in obsessive support for Man City? Because I really don't see it as being a significant change at all.

In your analogy people trade one obsession for another. In the OP, I explained that some people, some Gentile Christians as well as some Jewish Christians, have given up their obsession with religion completely rather than just traded one religion for another. Rabbi Skobac, perhaps unwittingly, is making atheists out of some Christians.

As far as superstitious religion is concerned, there are degrees of severity. Superstitious people can become even more superstitious. Jews who convert to Christianity add the superstition of Christianity to the superstition of Judaism. It's bad enough to believe one hundred lies, but to believe fifty more lies I think is a significant downturn.

This holy war against Christianity is like the allies uniting with Stalin to defeat their common enemy, Hitler. Atheists as well as Jews have a common enemy in Christianity, and if we fight together like the allies and Stalin did, then we can defeat that enemy.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The next step would be to question the teachings of Judaism, followed by religion in general and the role of faith as a prop.....

Judaism is every bit the kind of baloney Christianity is; it's just less baloney.

 

[steve_bank]

Yea...you mean those pesky little JEWS are at it again? We all know how those JEWS are, right?

From my experience Jews as Christians and Muslims and others do range from wacky extremes to conservative to moderate to liberal to religious in name only.

So what exactly is your point about those JEWS? If I am beeing to subtle I am quetioning your motivation behind the OP.

From Jews I have known they were more likely to relate to others on a basic human level regardless of religion. They do not proselytize.

In Israel there is a small group who reject modern Israel because it was created by men not god.

At the time of Jesus nationalist Jews under Roman occupation were looking for a new king as the prophesy who would lead them back to power.

The gospel symbolism in the day would have been obvious. 12 apostles led by Jesus, the 12 tribes. The sacrificial lamb. I don't think there is anything in the gospell story that does not have an OT precedent.

I think Josephus saw Jesus as a prophet as do some modern Jews.

I watched a TV show the Jewish Jesus hosted by a rabbi.

 

[lpetrich]

Jews for Judaism - that org's home page

I looked under Jews for Judaism | Articles -- that site also has a lot of videos

Articles like Jews for Judaism | Christian Proof-Texting on mistranslations, like Isaiah 7:14 about how a "young woman" (almah) will conceive. Sometimes mistranslated "virgin", with Xian theologians jumping on that as "proof" that JC was foretold in the Tanakh.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Jews for Judaism - that org's home page

I looked under Jews for Judaism | Articles -- that site also has a lot of videos

Articles like Jews for Judaism | Christian Proof-Texting on mistranslations, like Isaiah 7:14 about how a "young woman" (almah) will conceive. Sometimes mistranslated "virgin", with Xian theologians jumping on that as "proof" that JC was foretold in the Tanakh.

Yes, Jews for Judaism has a lot of good material on YouTube. I've long been aware of the Jewish critiques of Christianity including the mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14 you mention. Christianity is founded on the Jewish Bible. If that foundation is based on bogus claims, then Christianity falls.

 

[Learner]

But...but Jews aren't the only ones that can read and understand the Tanakh. If you thought that, as it seems to imply in the OP, then you're misguided. Sure... naturally there are translation issues between the two opposing sides.

EDIT: Did you know there were Jews who disagreed with other Jewish religious sects.? Christians also acknowledged the Maccabees in whereby Hannukah came about, but they were not included in the Jewish canon. The Rabbi Skobac mentions Hannukah but does'nt mention the Maccabees, no doubt because of their past rivalry, Rabbi's versus Maccabees who were a preisthood family.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

But...but Jews aren't the only ones that can read and understand the Tanakh. If you thought that, as it seems to imply in the OP, then you're misguided.

Yes, of course I'm well aware that Gentiles can understand the Jewish Bible insofar as it can be understood. I never meant to imply that a person must be a Jew to know the Tanakh because such a conclusion is obviously wrong. I think you're saying that I'm implying that Jews understand their scriptures better than Christians do. Based on what I know about Christianity and Judaism, it appears that generally Jewish scholars do understand their scriptures better than Christians do, or at least Jewish scholars represent their scriptures more truthfully than Christians do.

Sure... naturally there are translation issues between the two opposing sides.

Since Jews obviously do have a longer history and tradition of studying Hebrew than Christians do, then it seems reasonable to me that they have a better command of that language than most Christians do. If you wish to study Spanish, then would you ask an Italian to teach you Spanish? Generally, Spaniards have a better knowledge of Spanish than Italians do for very obvious reasons. The same goes for Hebrews knowing Hebrew better than Christians.

EDIT: Did you know there were Jews who disagreed with other Jewish religious sects.?

Yes. Of course.

Christians also acknowledged the Maccabees in whereby Hannukah came about, but they were not included in the Jewish canon. The Rabbi Skobac mentions Hannukah but does'nt mention the Maccabees, no doubt because of their past rivalry, Rabbi's versus Maccabees who were a preisthood family.

Now that I didn't know. How does that rivalry relate to Jews opposing Christian efforts to evangelize them?

In any case, it's beside the point I made in the OP who understands the Hebrew scriptures better, Christians or Jews. My point is that the efforts of Jews for Judaism to oppose Christians evangelizing Jews has led to many people investigating if Jesus really was the Jewish Messiah by examining the Hebrew Bible to see if the messianic claims made by Christians are really part of the Hebrew Bible. The result has been that many people, both Jews and Gentiles, are starting to doubt if what the New Testament says about the Old Testament is true.

 

[Learner]

But...but Jews aren't the only ones that can read and understand the Tanakh. If you thought that, as it seems to imply in the OP, then you're misguided.

Yes, of course I'm well aware that Gentiles can understand the Jewish Bible insofar as it can be understood. I never meant to imply that a person must be a Jew to know the Tanakh because such a conclusion is obviously wrong. I think you're saying that I'm implying that Jews understand their scriptures better than Christians do. Based on what I know about Christianity and Judaism, it appears that generally Jewish scholars do understand their scriptures better than Christians do, or at least Jewish scholars represent their scriptures more truthfully than Christians do.

Jewish scholars better than Christians. Christians who study in depth, also use Jewish interpretations.

Sure... naturally there are translation issues between the two opposing sides.

Since Jews obviously do have a longer history and tradition of studying Hebrew than Christians do, then it seems reasonable to me that they have a better command of that language than most Christians do. If you wish to study Spanish, then would you ask an Italian to teach you Spanish? Generally, Spaniards have a better knowledge of Spanish than Italians do for very obvious reasons. The same goes for Hebrews knowing Hebrew better than Christians.

EDIT: Did you know there were Jews who disagreed with other Jewish religious sects.?

Yes. Of course.

The you'll understand that there are/were differences on how to follow the faith. Different interpretations amomg Jews.

Christians also acknowledged the Maccabees in whereby Hannukah came about, but they were not included in the Jewish canon. The Rabbi Skobac mentions Hannukah but does'nt mention the Maccabees, no doubt because of their past rivalry, Rabbi's versus Maccabees who were a preisthood family.

Now that I didn't know. How does that rivalry relate to Jews opposing Christian efforts to evangelize them?

Varying rivalry interpretations is how it relates, the context I'm talking on. Natural biased interpretations, as each sect would argue for, in their individual faiths - as you (plural) seem to be implying that, "ONLY" Christians would do this (if it were the case some Christians do).

Jesus had an issue with the pharisees & sadducees for not following according to the scritptures, when they would rather go by their their own traditions of man etc..

In any case, it's beside the point I made in the OP who understands the Hebrew scriptures better, Christians or Jews. My point is that the efforts of Jews for Judaism to oppose Christians evangelizing Jews has led to many people investigating if Jesus really was the Jewish Messiah by examining the Hebrew Bible to see if the messianic claims made by Christians are really part of the Hebrew Bible. The result has been that many people, both Jews and Gentiles, are starting to doubt if what the New Testament says about the Old Testament is true.

Fair point. On the whole, I agree. More Jews know Hebrew better than many Christians. Christians who study, want to learn, often use translated texts from Jews ... which is so easy today to get access to.

....................

"Articles like Jews for Judaism | Christian Proof-Texting on mistranslations, like Isaiah 7:14 about how a "young woman" (almah) will conceive. Sometimes mistranslated "virgin", with Xian theologians jumping on that as "proof" that JC was foretold in the Tanakh."

I'll just say, for me, 'young woman' is not an issue, when using in place of the word virgin.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a 'young woman' shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

So did Mary, a young woman, also gave birth to a son.


Furthering on Isaiah 7:14 , there's the issue between Jews and Christians on Isaiah: 53 but that's another discussion.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Jewish scholars better than Christians.

I don't know what you're saying here. It would be very helpful if you would use complete sentences.

Christians who study in depth, also use Jewish interpretations.

Yes. Of course Christian Bible scholars study Jewish interpretations of the Hebrew Bible. What's your point?

The you'll understand that there are/were differences on how to follow the faith. Different interpretations amomg Jews.

True, but again you're not making your point clear.

Varying rivalry interpretations is how it relates, the context I'm talking on. Natural biased interpretations, as each sect would argue for, in their individual faiths - as you (plural) seem to be implying that, "ONLY" Christians would do this (if it were the case some Christians do).

So are you saying that Christianity is just another Jewish sect with its own set of unique interpretations of Jewish scripture? If so, my response is that the degree of interpretative difference is far more pronounced with Christianity than with any Jewish sect. Christians have introduced many theological and doctrinal ideas to Judaism that are alien to Jews and have been rejected by the large majority of Jews

Jesus had an issue with the pharisees & sadducees for not following according to the scritptures, when they would rather go by their their own traditions of man etc..

That's what Christians said only to add their own multitude of extra-scriptural traditions to the mix. Scripture is based on tradition assuming that the tradition becomes accepted as revealed scripture.

More Jews know Hebrew better than many Christians.

Naturally. While you are correct that some Christians can know Hebrew better than most Jews do, generally Jews have better command of their own language than Gentiles do.

Christians who study, want to learn, often use translated texts from Jews ... which is so easy today to get access to.

Jews have pointed out for centuries that the Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, is not a good source of their scriptures. It's better to go directly to the Hebrew Bible to know what the Hebrew Bible says, of course.

Let me conclude this post by explaining that all I need to do is read the Old-Testament passages cited by the New Testament to see who's right, and who's wrong. After doing so, I must agree with the Jews that their scriptures don't say what Christians say they say.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'd recommend
MESSIANIC JEWS, Messianic Judaism & Jews for Jesus like one for israel •Exposé

If I hear this man right, he respects the Jewish roots, yet would ignore the laws they teach, and that Jesus taught, which show that he could not be a messiah.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

It is a sin, and wrong in secular terms, to use or ask people to use a human sacrifice to bear their punishment, so as to abdicate their responsibilities for their own sins.

IOWs, You have to sin to be saved, and that makes it an immoral concept.

Regards
DL

 

[Ephesians]

There's a radical group made up of cruel unbelievers who are actively going after poor, defenseless Christians who only want to be left alone to enjoy their faith. These attackers are on the internet telling Christians that many of their core beliefs are untrue, and many Christians have lost their faith as a result of being exposed to these attacks.

If you think I'm talking about atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins criticizing Christian beliefs, then you would only be partly correct. Atheists are not the only group that is reputedly causing Christians to leave their faith. Some of the outspoken critics of Christian beliefs are Jews who among other things are saying that Jesus was not the promised Messiah, and even if he was the Messiah, he is not and cannot be God. Or so says Rabbi Michael Skobac of "Jews for Judaism." Skobac and his group rose up as a response to efforts on the part of some Christian groups like Jews for Jesus to convert Jews to Christianity. Ironically, the efforts of Jews for Judaism to oppose Christian evangelization of Jews has led to many non-Jewish Christians to leave their faith realizing that what Christians have said about Jesus, in particular from a Jewish perspective, is false.

It looks like the efforts to evangelize Jews have backfired!

I'd recommend
MESSIANIC JEWS, Messianic Judaism & Jews for Jesus like one for israel •Exposé

Jews against Jesus isn't anything new though.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Jews against Jesus isn't anything new though.

True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah.

 

[Ephesians]

Jews against Jesus isn't anything new though.

True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah.

I don't care what the Jews think.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Jews against Jesus isn't anything new though.

True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah.

I don't care what the Jews think.

Does that include the Jews who wrote the New Testament?

 

[Ephesians]

Jews against Jesus isn't anything new though.

True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah.

I don't care what the Jews think.

Does that include the Jews who wrote the New Testament?

Obviously not. Did you see what I was responding to? I was responding to what you wrote, "True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah."

Context, bro. It's important for successful reading comprehension. You're going to need that for 'Seeking Truth' and shiznit.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Does that include the Jews who wrote the New Testament?

Obviously not.

That looks like special pleading to me. Accept the evidence from Jews when it supports your beliefs, and reject the evidence from Jews when it does not support your beliefs.

Did you see what I was responding to? I was responding to what you wrote, "True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah."

Context, bro. It's important for successful reading comprehension. You're going to need that for 'Seeking Truth' and shiznit.

I must admit that what your posting doesn't always make sense to me. It appears that when you posted that you don't care what Jews think, you were referring to those Jews who don't tell you what you want to hear. You can improve your writing skills by using qualifiers like I do. So in the context of this dialogue, instead of referring to Jews in a broad sense, specify the subgroup of Jews you are referring to. For example, you might have posted: "I don't care what the Jews who disagree with me say."

 

[Ephesians]

I must admit that what your posting doesn't always make sense to me. It appears that when you posted that you don't care what Jews think, you were referring to those Jews who don't tell you what you want to hear. You can improve your writing skills by using qualifiers like I do. So in the context of this dialogue, instead of referring to Jews in a broad sense, specify the subgroup of Jews you are referring to. For example, you might have posted: "I don't care what the Jews who disagree with me say."

It's apparent that I'm a better writer than you are, by far.

That being said, I'm having difficulty understanding your misunderstanding. I thought I was clear enough the first time. I was responding to what you wrote earlier,

"True. Soon after Christians rose to power they went after the Jews. I think that Christians are embarrassed by all those Jews who don't buy what Christians say about Jesus being the Messiah."

To which I responded with, "I don't care what the Jews think."

Obviously, I'm referring to the Jews who thought and who think that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. This is why context matters. Have you ever considered the possibility that your inability to understand the Bible is a result of your poor reading comprehension?