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Judge decrees infant must die, parents forbidden to take him home

Separation of powers.

The authority in judgement here is the judiciary. The authority with the power to change the law is parliament.

The judge cannot change the law.
All the more reason not to falsify what's going on. You say "The NHS has a legally defined duty to do what is best medically for the patient". No, it just doesn't. It has a legally defined duty to obey Parliament; and Parliament is not commanding the NHS to do what is best medically for the patient. Parliament is commanding the NHS to commit child abuse.

Sure. But the context of that statement was a contrast with the accusation that the NHS might act to do what is best financially for the government. I could have added '... short of euthanasia, which is foolishly prohibited', but as the discussion was not about euthanasia, I didn't feel the need to do so. Whether or not euthanasia should be amongst the medical options is a separate discussion from whether medical or financial considerations are, were, or should have been, paramount.

I don't think it's particularly reasonable for you to demand that I change the subject to a related topic that you would prefer me to discuss, given that I wasn't responding to you in the first place. Had we been discussing euthanasia, then we would have been in agreement; And as far as I can tell, we are also in agreement on the topic of whether financial or medical considerations were the driver of the judge's decision in this case. So the only disagreement between us here is on which of these questions I should have addressed in my post - and frankly, your opinion on that subject is irrelevant.
 
Parliament is commanding the NHS to commit child abuse.

Refusing to allow the child to become the subject of medical experimentation is not child abuse.

Indeed. But prohibiting euthanasia is. If a dog was suffering in a similar way, the courts would order that it be put down to end its needless suffering - and were the dog's owners to not do that, they could quite rightly be charged with cruelty.

Parliament is guilty of that cruelty towards this patient, and their basis for choosing to be cruel is simply that the sufferer in this case is a human being.
 
Refusing to allow the child to become the subject of medical experimentation is not child abuse.

Indeed. But prohibiting euthanasia is. If a dog was suffering in a similar way, the courts would order that it be put down to end its needless suffering - and were the dog's owners to not do that, they could quite rightly be charged with cruelty.

Parliament is guilty of that cruelty towards this patient, and their basis for choosing to be cruel is simply that the sufferer in this case is a human being.

It's easy to make decisions on behalf of a lesser creature which is not allowed nor expected to have any input. The same cannot be said necessarily for human beings.
 
Indeed. But prohibiting euthanasia is. If a dog was suffering in a similar way, the courts would order that it be put down to end its needless suffering - and were the dog's owners to not do that, they could quite rightly be charged with cruelty.

Parliament is guilty of that cruelty towards this patient, and their basis for choosing to be cruel is simply that the sufferer in this case is a human being.

It's easy to make decisions on behalf of a lesser creature which is not allowed nor expected to have any input. The same cannot be said necessarily for human beings.

Courts make decisions on behalf of humans all the time, and in the case of minors, the decisions are often made with little or no input from the individual affected.

But as nobody is suggesting that euthanasia should be ordered against the wishes of the person who is to be euthanased, your objection is not relevant, even in those cases where it is accurate.

The law as it stands demands that I live; No matter how much I want to die, doctors are not allowed to help me to do so as comfortably as possible. That's crazy.
 
It's easy to make decisions on behalf of a lesser creature which is not allowed nor expected to have any input. The same cannot be said necessarily for human beings.

Courts make decisions on behalf of humans all the time, and in the case of minors, the decisions are often made with little or no input from the individual affected.

But as nobody is suggesting that euthanasia should be ordered against the wishes of the person who is to be euthanased, your objection is not relevant, even in those cases where it is accurate.

The law as it stands demands that I live; No matter how much I want to die, doctors are not allowed to help me to do so as comfortably as possible. That's crazy.

I don't disagree, but I think it's far easier to end the life of an animal than it is to do so for a person. It's one thing to let a person pass of natural causes. Quite another to expedite their passing.
Dogs? Most people see one or more go in their time. Hell when you buy or adopt an animal, it's with the unspoken understanding that one day it will die and you will have to bury it. The same isn't true with children.

My point wasnt really about the animal necessarily having a say but more with the qualms (or lack there of) of the person having to put it down.

Also Christians. They don't like people ending their lives because god.
 
This is a weird derail. Yes, euthanasia should be legal, but that is a different question. Right now, the claim is that the experimental treatments are not in his best interest.

A doctor's requirement to 'act in the patient's best interest' is obviously couched in the context of what is in their power for them to do, and we shouldn't say they are failing their duty to do so by not taking actions that they aren't able or allowed to do. The actions a doctor would/should take 'in best interests' now are not necessarily the same as they were 20 or 50 or 100 years ago, because of changes in medicine and law. So we shouldn't blame the doctors for not snapping their fingers and insta-curing the patient, for not using drugs that haven't been invented yet, for not breaking into pharmaceutical labs to steal drugs for their patients, for not going out on the street and forcibly treating patients, etc...

Trying to claim that the doctors aren't doing their best to act in Charlie's best interest, under the explicit restrictions that they face, is wrong. They simply don't have the ability or legal right to do anything else, and they shouldn't be blamed for doing what they can. For all we know they are right-to-die advocates, but that does not mean they have a moral obligation to euthanize anybody, even if they have the physical ability to do so. I have little doubt that if euthanasia was allowed in Britain, that would have been what the court case was about (and could you imagine the shrieks of the 'DEATH PANEL' people then...) But right now, that is not possible, and making it possible will take too long for Charlie. They are taking the best option available to them.
 
Separation of powers.

The authority in judgement here is the judiciary. The authority with the power to change the law is parliament.

The judge cannot change the law.
All the more reason not to falsify what's going on. You say "The NHS has a legally defined duty to do what is best medically for the patient". No, it just doesn't. It has a legally defined duty to obey Parliament; and Parliament is not commanding the NHS to do what is best medically for the patient. Parliament is commanding the NHS to commit child abuse.

Doctors in the NHS have vastly higher moral standards than American Republicans, who worship only wealth and party advantage. Naturally they find themselves bound by the Hippocratic oath, which would prevent their keeping this poor child aimlessly alive to be experimented on.
 
That's an odd way of looking at it. These aren't laws of physics we're talking about. What is or isn't illegal is up to the authorities to choose.

The state is trying to do what is best for the patient, within the constraints of the law
That's just another way of saying their primary goal is to obey the law, not to do what's best for the patient. That's what I said: the state actors are making sure that they will not be found to have broken the rules.

- and that qualifier usually goes without saying.
Indeed it does. But it doesn't go without knowing. They all know their goal is to follow the rules, and they all say their goal is to do what's best for the patient. Why the heck should we all politely let that go without comment? That qualifier should not go without saying.

Changing the law to allow for an even better outcome for the patient is not on the table at this time, but I agree with you that it should be; If the patient was a dog, the RSPCA would be up in arms about the cruelty of keeping him alive to suffer.
Bingo. So let's put it on the table. Pointing out that the state is being irrational about this, refusing to allow euthanasia while suffocating children, seems to me like a good way to get it there. By refusing to let the parents take Charlie to America for further futile treatment attempts, the state has already put itself in the business of telling the Pope to take his religion's obsession with maximizing life span and get stuffed. There is no non-religious reason to regard pulling the plug as more moral than putting a person down the way we do dogs. So for the state to tell the Pope to get stuffed on the one matter and not the other is hypocrisy, and, more importantly, it's bad for patients. So why won't they just bloody well tell the Pope to get stuffed twice? In for a penny, in for a pound.
Curious, how much of a fortune has been spent keeping this child alive to this point? NHS never saved a dime with this child. Every penny spent wasn't going to be for a person that would make it far in life. Regardless, every conceivable thing was done, a tremendous amount spent.

It is time to accept the reality and the moral issue that is keeping a brain dead child alive on a machine.
 
Late to the game as usual.

A thought.

So the government should support the right of parents to not have their children receive treatment for bacteria hazard. Think of this as just the opposite of parents opting out of best treatment for this baby, subjecting it to more uncertainty with an unproved treatment in the US. All they need is money.

What if Marin county parents could say they guarantee, though donations, the recovery of all children affected by their children having risk to measles etc. Would you permit that. Do you believe they can guarantee recovery of all children effected by their risk the don't wanta people insist to which their children are entitled? Of course not.

Authority has to use best evidence even when the evidence is just almost certainty.
 
Late to the game as usual.

A thought.

So the government should support the right of parents to not have their children receive treatment for bacteria hazard. Think of this as just the opposite of parents opting out of best treatment for this baby, subjecting it to more uncertainty with an unproved treatment in the US. All they need is money.

What if Marin county parents could say they guarantee, though donations, the recovery of all children affected by their children having risk to measles etc. Would you permit that. Do you believe they can guarantee recovery of all children effected by their risk the don't wanta people insist to which their children are entitled? Of course not.

Authority has to use best evidence even when the evidence is just almost certainty.
The argument doesn't work for me because we're talking about a kid that has no chance of survival based on the best knowledge and means at our disposal, and not prolonging that kid's suffering to assuage our emotional needs. We're not talking about maybe getting measles.

Maybe there's a better analogy out there, maybe even a real one.
 
Late to the game as usual.

A thought.

So the government should support the right of parents to not have their children receive treatment for bacteria hazard. Think of this as just the opposite of parents opting out of best treatment for this baby, subjecting it to more uncertainty with an unproved treatment in the US. All they need is money.

What if Marin county parents could say they guarantee, though donations, the recovery of all children affected by their children having risk to measles etc. Would you permit that. Do you believe they can guarantee recovery of all children effected by their risk the don't wanta people insist to which their children are entitled? Of course not.

Authority has to use best evidence even when the evidence is just almost certainty.
The argument doesn't work for me because we're talking about a kid that has no chance of survival based on the best knowledge and means at our disposal, and not prolonging that kid's suffering to assuage our emotional needs. We're not talking about maybe getting measles.

Maybe there's a better analogy out there, maybe even a real one.

The key point is that American right-wing politicians care nothing whatever for the sufferings of actual people - only working up ignorant mugs emotionally to get support. That's how the USA came to humiliate itself by electing this fat, spoilt, rich fool.
 
Electing Donald J. didn't humiliate America. America is a fat, spoilt, rich, fool of a country already.

Imagine if everybody voted here. All that no-information, low information population that noramlly chooses to stay away from the polls because they want to watch Tuesday Football going to the polls. Are you crazy?
 
Trump's election can be directly attributed to two things: 1)the overwhelming success of liberal democratic policy and 2)human stupidity.
 
The parents, the contributors, the pope, everyone trying to get the kid the experimental treatment, are also wrong, but at least they're honestly pursuing a coherent, if stupid, notion of what's best for the child: maximize life at all costs.
That may be the case for the parent as they are very personally involved. However, the contributors and pope are hardly "honestly pursuing a coherent, if stupid, notion". But it is truly stupid. This child is nobody to them other than a tear jerking headline grabber. It is not coherent to throw millions of dollars on one hopeless and lost cause of one child's life when there are millions of children at real risk of death due to a multitude of things that can be mitigated via very low cost efforts per child.

General description of the threats to young children:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/

$1.7 million dollars could help roughly 50,000 children/people in this one project. Or could be given to groups like UNICEF....
https://thewaterproject.org/why-water/health
For about $34 per person, The Water Project is able to work with local partners to provide access to clean water as well as hygiene and sanitation programs. These training programs greatly reduce the disease burden in their communities, allowing villagers to increase their productivity and begin working themselves out of poverty.
 
That may be the case for the parent as they are very personally involved. However, the contributors and pope are hardly "honestly pursuing a coherent, if stupid, notion". But it is truly stupid. This child is nobody to them other than a tear jerking headline grabber. It is not coherent to throw millions of dollars on one hopeless and lost cause of one child's life when there are millions of children at real risk of death due to a multitude of things that can be mitigated via very low cost efforts per child.

General description of the threats to young children:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/

$1.7 million dollars could help roughly 50,000 children/people in this one project. Or could be given to groups like UNICEF....
https://thewaterproject.org/why-water/health
For about $34 per person, The Water Project is able to work with local partners to provide access to clean water as well as hygiene and sanitation programs. These training programs greatly reduce the disease burden in their communities, allowing villagers to increase their productivity and begin working themselves out of poverty.

I would argue that the pope's position is not foolish nor incoherent at all. It's just evil - he cares naught for the life of the child, but can see an opportunity to use this sad situation to advance the power and position of the church of which he is head.

Those who agree with the pope's stated position may be foolish and incoherent; but his exploitation of their foolishness and lack of coherent thought is cynical, calculated and evil. That's the way the church has always done things.
 
Being "permitted to die" is not in Charlie's best interests. Being euthanized is.

No, being cured is in his best interest. Nanny nanny booboo.
Curing him is not something doctors know how to do. Euthanizing him is.

Being "permitted to die" is not in Charlie's best interests. Being euthanized is. If the state were motivated by what is in Charlie's best interests then euthanasia would not be illegal in Britain.
It ought to be obvious that the context of the judge's statement is that given the laws of the England, it is Charliess best interest to not receive the experimental treatment. To expect a judge to flout or contradict the laws of the country is unrealistic.

This is a weird derail. Yes, euthanasia should be legal, but that is a different question. Right now, the claim is that the experimental treatments are not in his best interest.

A doctor's requirement to 'act in the patient's best interest' is obviously couched in the context of what is in their power for them to do, and we shouldn't say they are failing their duty to do so by not taking actions that they aren't able or allowed to do. The actions a doctor would/should take 'in best interests' now are not necessarily the same as they were 20 or 50 or 100 years ago, because of changes in medicine and law. So we shouldn't blame the doctors for not snapping their fingers and insta-curing the patient, for not using drugs that haven't been invented yet, for not breaking into pharmaceutical labs to steal drugs for their patients, for not going out on the street and forcibly treating patients, etc...

Trying to claim that the doctors aren't doing their best to act in Charlie's best interest, under the explicit restrictions that they face, is wrong. They simply don't have the ability or legal right to do anything else, and they shouldn't be blamed for doing what they can. For all we know they are right-to-die advocates, but that does not mean they have a moral obligation to euthanize anybody, even if they have the physical ability to do so. I have little doubt that if euthanasia was allowed in Britain, that would have been what the court case was about (and could you imagine the shrieks of the 'DEATH PANEL' people then...) But right now, that is not possible, and making it possible will take too long for Charlie. They are taking the best option available to them.
But I didn't argue for judges or doctors to flout the law. I argued for the doctors, judges and posters to not say things that are wrong and to not ignore the elephant in the room. I'm sorry you feel that's a derail; I'm sorry you feel the impossibility of snapping their fingers and insta-curing the patient is analogous to the illegality of euthanasia; I'm sorry you feel breaking into pharmaceutical labs to steal drugs, which would do serious harm to other people, is analogous to euthanizing Charlie, which would not; and I'm sorry you feel going out on the street and forcibly treating someone who in fact isn't a patient is analogous to doing your best for someone who is.

Moreover, even setting euthanasia aside, neither the judges nor the doctors are actually prioritizing what's best for Charlie. The UK Supreme Court straight-up admits it.

10. By his judgment dated 11 April 2017 Mr Justice Francis found, by
reference to all that evidence and in accordance with the submissions of the
hospital and on behalf of Charlie by his guardian, that:
...
(b) it was not certain whether Charlie is suffering pain but it is likely
that he is suffering it and at more than a low level (paras 22, 113, 114);
...
12. On 25 May 2017 the Court of Appeal unanimously dismissed the parents’
appeal. It had not been suggested to Mr. Justice Francis that a relevant test might
be whether the harm which Charlie was suffering was “significant”. But the
suggestion was made to the Court of Appeal, which considered it clear that the
effect of the judge’s findings was that the harm which he was suffering was
“significant” (para 114).
...
15. Every day since 11 April 2017 the stays have obliged the hospital to take a
course which, as is now clear beyond doubt or challenge, is not in the best interests
of Charlie. The hospital finds itself in an acutely difficult ethical dilemma:
although the stays have made it lawful to continue to provide him with AVNH, it
considers it professionally wrong for it to have continued for over two months to
act otherwise than in his best interests.
...
17. We three members of this court find ourselves in a situation which, so far as
we can recall, we have never previously experienced. By granting a stay, even of
short duration, we would in some sense be complicit in directing a course of action
which is contrary to Charlie’s best interests.
18. But, from a legal point of view and in this very limited procedural context,
are the best interests of Charlie necessarily always paramount ? There is, says Mr.
Gordon QC on behalf of the parents, another requirement in play, namely that such
rights as they have under articles 2 and 8 (and, added Mr. Gordon, possibly also
under 5) should be effective. Until the ECtHR has had at any rate some
opportunity to consider the application to be filed today, would not the court be
violating their right to an effective remedy by taking the course suggested by
Charlie’s guardian ?
...
20. With considerable hesitation we direct that the judge’s declarations be
further stayed for a period of three weeks, namely until midnight on 10/11 July
2017. We respectfully urge our colleagues in the ECtHR to do everything in their
power to address the proposed application by then. We consider at present that we
would feel the gravest difficulty if asked to act yet further against Charlie’s best
interests by directing an even longer extension of the stay.​

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/charlie-gard-190617.pdf

This isn't the first three-week stay the court has granted. Fortunately, to decide, it didn't take the ECtHR the ten weeks it took the British courts, or even the three weeks the British courts offered them. They decided in one week. That was two weeks ago. Life support was due to be withdrawn on June 30. On June 29 the hospital issued this statement:

...
'(The) decision by the European Court of Human Rights marks the end of what has been a very difficult process and our priority is to provide every possible support to Charlie's parents as we prepare for the next steps.
'There will be no rush by Great Ormond Street Hospital to change Charlie's care and any future treatment plans will involve careful planning and discussion.'
...​

There has been no rush. Charlie Gard is still on life support. And here's the latest development.

"Great Ormond Street Hospital has applied to the High Court for a fresh hearing in the case of sick baby Charlie Gard."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...ital-fresh-hearing-new-evidence-a7829756.html
 
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