Kamala the hypocrite

[Tom Sawyer]

But that's unrelated to anything which Harris did or the topic of the thread. She helped pass the law in question towards the end of her term as AG.

The hypocrisy is about her avocation for this new law which she helped enact. It's not about her enforcing some law which just happened to be on the books while she was in the office.

That is based on the assumption that OP quote is a general claim rather than within the context of abortion. I strongly suspect that Ms. Harris made that tweet in the context of abortion since it was a reply to Trump's SOTU where he talked about asking Congress to pass legislation to prohibit late term abortion. I can find no reference to sex workers or sex work or prostitutes in that speech.

Of course that's the context in which she made that quote. Nobody is contesting that.

What's being said is that her opposition to laws restricting access to abortion is based on her position that the government shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies. If that is her actual position, then it was hypocritical of her to champion the passage of a law which essentially tells women what to do with their bodies because it severely hampers their ability to make the choice to use their bodies in the sex work industry.

If that's not her position and her actual position is that the government shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies unless they choose to do something she doesn't want them to be doing, in which case the government should be telling them what to do with their bodies, then she should specify this position more clearly.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No, but you're saying a relevant analogy would be legal abortion doctors protesting the advertisements of illegal abortion doctors. In order for it to actually be related to the topic, there would need to be legal prostitutes who are not impacted by the shuttering of the ad site for illegal prostitutes. Since there aren't legal prostitutes in California, it wasn't a relevant analogy to make.

No, 'sex worker' is not limited to prostitutes. It includes strippers, for example. So, I think the analogy still applies.

Harris was trying to close legal loopholes for sex trafficking. =! saying women cannot be sex workers at all.

And people specifying onerous restrictions for abortion clinics aren't trying to stop abortions. They're just trying to close legal loopholes in the medical industry.

 

[laughing dog]

But that's unrelated to anything which Harris did or the topic of the thread. She helped pass the law in question towards the end of her term as AG.

The hypocrisy is about her avocation for this new law which she helped enact. It's not about her enforcing some law which just happened to be on the books while she was in the office.

That is based on the assumption that OP quote is a general claim rather than within the context of abortion. I strongly suspect that Ms. Harris made that tweet in the context of abortion since it was a reply to Trump's SOTU where he talked about asking Congress to pass legislation to prohibit late term abortion. I can find no reference to sex workers or sex work or prostitutes in that speech.

Of course that's the context in which she made that quote. Nobody is contesting that.

If you admit is not a general claim then there is to extend it to other contexts is unreasonable without more information. It is not hypocritical for a politician to say politicians should not tell a woman what to do with her body when it comes to abortion but to advocate for laws that tell women what to do (or not to do) with their bodies in other contexts.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Okay, what does FOSTA actually do, then?

Does it make it illegal to be a stripper?

If not, then Derec must have some other quote of hers in mind.

 

[laughing dog]

No, but you're saying a relevant analogy would be legal abortion doctors protesting the advertisements of illegal abortion doctors. In order for it to actually be related to the topic, there would need to be legal prostitutes who are not impacted by the shuttering of the ad site for illegal prostitutes. Since there aren't legal prostitutes in California, it wasn't a relevant analogy to make.

No, 'sex worker' is not limited to prostitutes. It includes strippers, for example. So, I think the analogy still applies.

Harris was trying to close legal loopholes for sex trafficking. =! saying women cannot be sex workers at all.

And people specifying onerous restrictions for abortion clinics aren't trying to stop abortions. They're just trying to close legal loopholes in the medical industry.

First that is false. Second, there is no evidence that FOSTA is aimed at strippers or other types of sex workers who are not prostitutes.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Okay, what does FOSTA actually do, then?

Does it make it illegal to be a stripper?

If not, then Derec must have some other quote of hers in mind.

Why are you talking about strippers? If you want to use "prostitute" instead of the more generic "sex worker", then fine. It's a trivially moot point.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Of course that's the context in which she made that quote. Nobody is contesting that.

If you admit is not a general claim then there is to extend it to other contexts is unreasonable without more information. It is not hypocritical for a politician to say politicians should not tell a woman what to do with her body when it comes to abortion but to advocate for laws that tell women what to do (or not to do) with their bodies in other contexts.

Correct. That's actually the point. If her position is NOT "politicians should not tell women what to do with their bodies" because she actually thinks that it's fine for them to tell women what to do with their bodies in certain situations where she doesn't want them to be able to choose something and only a problem if politicians tell women what to do with their bodies in other situations where she wants them to be able to choose something, then there would be no hypocrisy in her stating her position.

If, however, she doesn't state such a position and instead excludes any caveats for when politicians should be able to tell women what to do with their bodies, then it's reasonable to point out that she is taking actions in opposition to what she's stated to be her position when she, as a politician, tells women what to do with their bodies.

 

[PyramidHead]

Well, that's like saying that prosecuting doctors for murdering babies in their mother's wombs isn't a problem where abortion is illegal because they broke the law.

Elected officials are responsible for enforcing the law regardless of their opinion about the law. Doing one's duty by enforcing a law one may disagree with does not make one a hypocrite.

It makes you a cop, though, and ACAB. I've had him on ignore for years, but Derec is in the right on this one. Nobody should get a pass for just following orders. Legalism is a moral dead end that liberals need to give up sooner rather than later.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Okay, what does FOSTA actually do, then?

Does it make it illegal to be a stripper?

If not, then Derec must have some other quote of hers in mind.

Why are you talking about strippers? If you want to use "prostitute" instead of the more generic "sex worker", then fine. It's a trivially moot point.

I don't want to use prostitute, I just thought that the term included legal and illegal work which makes people get hard ons. Filming porn, dancing on stage, talking on phones to people who want to hear how big their dick is....

But, aside from that.

What does FOSTA actually do?
What does the law SAY? Because it would be dishonest to SAY that Harris, by endorsing the law, has SAID anything it does not SAY.

Anyone read it?

 

[Toni]

Deric is not that wrong though. Harris tried to prosecute Backpages for their sex ads, impinging on sex workers' livelihood and perhaps their safety.

Maybe that's because backpage has been demonstrably used to sell the services of victims of sex trafficking, including victims who are underage.

 

[Derec]

Do you have a cite for that? That she tells women they cannot be sex workers, even if they obey the laws regarding sex work?

What the hell are you talking about? Passing and supporting laws against sex work is "politicians telling women [and men] what to do with their bodies".
Kamala definitely supports such work, and has been a crusader against sex work since her time as prosecutor in San Francisco.

I mean, not to be confused with prosecuting women or men for violating laws against certain behaviors, where does she say they can not be legal sex workers? Like sexual therapists? Or sexual surrogates? Strippers? Adult Film Actors?

Outlawing most sex work is still "telling women [and men] what to do with their bodies", something she now says politicians like her should not do. Hence the hypocrisy.

Your position is like saying that banning abortion is not really "telling women ..." because they are still allowed to use birth control.

Also, I wonder whether she would like to ban stripping too. Many prohibitionists do.

 

[Derec]

Your conclusion needs some more steps before your case of hypocrisy can stand up to reason.

As usual, you are wrong.

First, if Ms Harris was specifically referencing Trump and abortion, then there is no hypocrisy, since anti-abortion politicians are only telling women not men what to do with their bodies.

Of course there is hypocrisy. She is justifying her pro-abortion views by saying that "politicians should not tell women what to do with their bodies". In the meantime, she is very much in favor of politicians telling people (including women) what to do with their bodies, as long as she personally opposes those choices.

Second, as Keith&Co points out, there is no hypocrisy in being against prostitution (which is a subset of sex work)

Yes, there is. It is explicitly politicians telling people what to do with their bodies. Full sex work (to avoid using the prejudicial "prostitution") may be a subset of all sex work, but banning it fits the "politicians telling people what to do with their bodies" even more than abortion, as there is no third body involved.

Telling women and men to obey the law is not hypocrisy.

So if a law were to be passed banning abortion, it would not be "politicians telling women what to do with their bodies"? You can't have it both ways, but I know you will try.

Thirds, as Keith&CO points out, you need to show that Ms Harris tells only women that they cannot engage in sex work at all.

I do not. I neither claimed that, nor is it relevant to my point.

 

[Derec]

Derec is not interested in male sex workers,

Not personally at least. I still think they should be as free to pursue that profession as women.

 

[Derec]

Deric is not that wrong though. Harris tried to prosecute Backpages for their sex ads, impinging on sex workers' livelihood and perhaps their safety.

Well, is there any indication she did that for the express purpose of stopping sex workers?

Yes.

Or was that impinging really a side effect of her attempt to stop something illegal like trafficking?

1. Prohibitionists like Kamala conflate sex work and trafficking.
2. It has been shown that shutting down websites like Backpage makes things less safe for sex workers.

You know, keeping people from breaking the law, which was her job as a prosecutor? Not to be confused with taking a moral stance against sex work in all its iterations?
Has she actually SAID women cannot be sex workers?

Yes, she has.
A New Movement to Legalize Prostitution Faces a Fight With Kamala Harris

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Deric is not that wrong though. Harris tried to prosecute Backpages for their sex ads, impinging on sex workers' livelihood and perhaps their safety.

Well, is there any indication she did that for the express purpose of stopping sex workers? Or was that impinging really a side effect of her attempt to stop something illegal like trafficking? You know, keeping people from breaking the law, which was her job as a prosecutor? Not to be confused with taking a moral stance against sex work in all its iterations?


Has she actually SAID women cannot be sex workers?

Going after Backpage actually hurt the victims of trafficking. Having one main place to advertise made it easier for the cops to go after the traffickers. Likewise, it hurt those who have chosen to be sex workers by making it more dangerous for them to find clients.

 

[Derec]

does "women choosing what they do with their bodies" include:
Suicide: Illegal

Not in "right to die" states, which includes Cali.

body slamming, punching, slapping, etc: assault

Women are free to consent to that, just like men.

late term abortion: still illegal in most states

Basically the thing Kamala was attacking in her tweet. Note that late term abortion involves another body. The need to abort a viable fetus for medical reason is exceedingly rare however. I do not think it should be legal to abort a healthy 8 or 9 month fetus. Do you?

under age drinking: illegal

I have an inkling Kamala would be against lowering the drinking age too.

adultery: civil violation - basis for divorce

Adultery is not a "civil violation" and anything can be a basis for divorce these days/

Or, do women only have SOME choice about what they can do with their bodies? It seems there is precedent limiting what anyone can do with their bodies.

So what do you make of this tweet then?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And people specifying onerous restrictions for abortion clinics aren't trying to stop abortions. They're just trying to close legal loopholes in the medical industry.

First that is false. Second, there is no evidence that FOSTA is aimed at strippers or other types of sex workers who are not prostitutes.

How about dominatrixes?

 

[Derec]

Harris was trying to close legal loopholes for sex trafficking. =! saying women cannot be sex workers at all.

You, like Harris are conflating two different things.
Having sex for money != being a trafficking victim.

- - - Updated - - -

That is based on the assumption that OP quote is a general claim rather than within the context of abortion. I strongly suspect that Ms. Harris made that tweet in the context of abortion since it was a reply to Trump's SOTU where he talked about asking Congress to pass legislation to prohibit late term abortion. I can find no reference to sex workers or sex work or prostitutes in that speech.

We all know why she made that statement. The problem is that it is a statement that invokes a general principle, a principle she herself is violating when the choice is question is something she disagrees with.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Deric is not that wrong though. Harris tried to prosecute Backpages for their sex ads, impinging on sex workers' livelihood and perhaps their safety.

Maybe that's because backpage has been demonstrably used to sell the services of victims of sex trafficking, including victims who are underage.

The problem is this is a case of shoot-the-messenger.

 

[Derec]

Maybe that's because backpage has been demonstrably used to sell the services of victims of sex trafficking, including victims who are underage.

In some cases, yes. But vast majority of ads are for consenting adults. Instead of using Backpage as a resource to go after actual traffickers, that law punished all sex workers who have been using the site.