Language as a Clue to Prehistory

[Janice Rael]

I've noticed that some linguists treat their science almost like plane geometry, with immutable theorems. I'll give two examples.

Hi @Swammerdami , I have asked my "math friends" if they think that math is (or, maths are, outside of the USA) a symbol-based language, like Mandarin Chinese and other Chinese dialects; and Sanskrit. The math friends had not thought of language questions, and after pondering, agreed that there are examples of different math languages, such as algebra, geometry, calculus, and whatever higher math my friend is surely going to need to leave her kids to learn. That's okay, the 2nd to youngest just became an astrophysicist.

Hi @lpetrich may I also get your opinion on this idea?


At the ends of our chats, we essentially agreed that math gets us to the moon, and language lets us describe everything from the journey to the destination. Do you all agree?

Is it not agreed that the roots of Indo-European can be found in ancient Sanskrit writings?

 

[bilby]

The split between proto-Hittite and IE Proper occurred just before the wheeled wagon was invented.

That assumes that this invention was epochal; If the wheel was independently invented in a number of different places, at a number of different times, then that statement becomes untenable.

I do agree, however, that archaeological evidence should not be ignored by paelolinguists; If only so that they can avoid re-inventing the wheel.

 

[Swammerdami]

It's not just "the wheel." Wheeled wagons are non-trivial devices, with variations in axles, etc. The invention proceeded in stages. My understanding is that wagons are believed to have suddenly appeared throughout Eastern Europe and neighboring areas. Wooden wheels decay, so the fact that the Afanasievo culture (speaking proto-Tocharian) in Siberia knew of wheeled wagons is inferred from children's clay toys.

The utility of wagons depended on terrain and economy. Having flat terrain and a stock-breeding economy meant that the Indo-Europeans of the Eastern European steppes benefited especially; this helps explain their rising success after the invention.

 

[lpetrich]

I've noticed that some linguists treat their science almost like plane geometry, with immutable theorems. I'll give two examples.

Hi @Swammerdami , I have asked my "math friends" if they think that math is (or, maths are, outside of the USA) a symbol-based language, like Mandarin Chinese and other Chinese dialects; and Sanskrit.

Symbol-based language? What do you mean? Spoken Chinese and spoken Sanskrit are like any other spoken language, like spoken English. Like English dog ~ Sanskrit śvan ~ Mandarin gǒu ~ Cantonese gau2 (phonetic transcriptions for Sanskrit and Chinese)

Writing?  List of writing systems

Sanskrit is written in an alphabet called Devanâgarî. Yes, an alphabet, though more strictly an abugida, where vowels are added on to consonants.

Chinese is written in a logographic system, with one symbol for each word or word part. It's not a pictographic system, with pictures for words, though it started off as one. Present-day Chinese characters are far from their pictographic origins.

Kinds of writing:

• Pictographic - pictures - emojis
• Ideographic - ideas or concepts - numerals, mathematics in general
• Logographic - words or word parts - Chinese characters
• Alphabet - speech sounds (phonemes) - Greek, Roman, Cyrillic
• (Alphabet) Abugida - consonants with vowels added on - Devanagari and other South Asian writing systems
• (Alphabet) Abjad - consonants with vowels usually omitted - Hebrew, Arabic
• Syllablic - syllables - Japanese hiragana, katakana

Logographic writing can be constructed from alphabets: irregular spelling and abbreviations/acronyms.

The math friends had not thought of language questions, and after pondering, agreed that there are examples of different math languages, such as algebra, geometry, calculus, and whatever higher math my friend is surely going to need to leave her kids to learn. That's okay, the 2nd to youngest just became an astrophysicist.

Description of mathematics can be though of as a kind of language, and mathematics notation is a kind of ideographic writing.

At the ends of our chats, we essentially agreed that math gets us to the moon, and language lets us describe everything from the journey to the destination. Do you all agree?

???

Is it not agreed that the roots of Indo-European can be found in ancient Sanskrit writings?

No, not at all. Sanskrit was a spoken language long before it was written down, and the Vedas were preserved by professional chanters for some centuries before they were written down.

Proto-Indo-European is an ancestor of Sanskrit, just like it is of English.

 

[Janice Rael]

This is amazing work and an insightful, educational reply. Thank you, LP. I have to re-read your post and look some things up; perhaps discuss with a math friend or two. I really am fascinated by this information.