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Laws of Nature... emergent property of matter or immaterial rules imposed upon matter?

What the "laws" are is not known.

What we know is how things act because the "laws" are there.

We can only see behavior. We cannot see "laws". We conclude the "laws" are there based on the behavior of the things we can observe.

But certainly the "laws" are such that intelligent life can evolve that know about the "laws".

This bothers some scientists so they speculate about many universes without evidence of them.
 
What the "laws" are is not known.

What we know is how things act because the "laws" are there.

We can only see behavior. We cannot see "laws". We conclude the "laws" are there based on the behavior of the things we can observe.

But certainly the "laws" are such that intelligent life can evolve that know about the "laws".

This bothers some scientists so they speculate about many universes without evidence of them.
We agree? Gonna have to read that again
 
In the early debates. Atheists used to use natural law as the baseline ruler for arguments against creation and would be quite successful. Quite odd really when scientists have no idea "why or how" the laws of nature work this way and they would have to be sure there is no invisible guiding hand.

You would have to determine you understand why before claiming "natural law" as your own .. taking and seperating any notion for creationists by using what is neutral as the tool of measure.

yes. The "neutral tool of measure" is the set of objective facts.

When you say, "in the early debates", I read that as, "what was once thought long ago"... things like "if you walk too far, you will fall off the edge of the Earth". the set of observable facts were much fewer during the "early debates".
 
What the "laws" are is not known.

What we know is how things act because the "laws" are there.
no, the laws are derived by the way things act. Not the other way around... like how creationists start with "there is a guiding hand" and then work backwards to cherry-pick supporting inferences. I can understand the confusion from those that have the process of gaining objective knowledge backwards.
We can only see behavior. We cannot see "laws". We conclude the "laws" are there based on the behavior of the things we can observe.
no, laws are descriptions. "Jill is crying because she is sad". It sounds like you are claiming that "sad" is "out there" "making" Jill cry because the conditions are just right for Sad to get its way.. oh sorry if I offended... I mean to write S-d
But certainly the "laws" are such that intelligent life can evolve that know about the "laws".
uh huh...
This bothers some scientists so they speculate about many universes without evidence of them.
which scientists are proposing a multiverse because they are "bothered" by the existence of "laws"? That's like saying that the only reason you get out of bed in the morning is because you are "bothered" by the sun rising.
 
I've noted an assumption in creationist posts for years. I didn't speak on it because I don't know physics well enough to go into it.

Here's the question: Are laws the descriptions of patterns in nature? Or are they forces that makes things "do stuff"? Or what?

I think it's both "patterns that emerge" and "forces that act on matter". I only had a couple introductory courses on physics so am unsure.

The way creationists write about laws, they tend to treat laws like ideas ruling over matter, as something distinct from matter. I've seen some creationists talk about them the same way they sometimes speak of rules of logic... something immaterial and prior even to the universe.

I figure the pull of gravity, for an example, is inherent to matter so the pattern or force isn't somehow "put there" to rule over matter... Rather, the force and the patterns it makes are matter's innate characteristics.

Please correct me in all my mistakes here. I have curiosity about the theist mind, but much more about science.
What we call 'laws of nature' are essentially formal expressions we use to represent our understanding of our experience of our natural environment. They are definitely human constructs but it's probably the case any intelligent species would come up with something very similar. Similar but not identical. So laws of nature are probably profoundly human... in nature.
EB
 
no, the laws are derived by the way things act. Not the other way around... like how creationists start with "there is a guiding hand" and then work backwards to cherry-pick supporting inferences. I can understand the confusion from those that have the process of gaining objective knowledge backwards.

That is exactly what I said. We only know about the "laws" through observation of the way things behave.

Talking about creationists makes me think you are afraid of something.

We can only see behavior. We cannot see "laws". We conclude the "laws" are there based on the behavior of the things we can observe.

no, laws are descriptions. "Jill is crying because she is sad". It sounds like you are claiming that "sad" is "out there" "making" Jill cry because the conditions are just right for Sad to get its way.. oh sorry if I offended... I mean to write S-d

?

This is exactly what you said. "the laws are derived by the way things act"

But when I say it you say "no".

I see a hysteric all over the place and not understanding what they are reading.

But certainly the "laws" are such that intelligent life can evolve that know about the "laws".

uh huh...

Yes it is undeniable. Don't be too upset.

which scientists are proposing a multiverse because they are "bothered" by the existence of "laws"? That's like saying that the only reason you get out of bed in the morning is because you are "bothered" by the sun rising.

The multiverse is specifically an argument to counter the fact that this universe is obviously such that "intelligent" life can arise from it.
 
I've noted an assumption in creationist posts for years. I didn't speak on it because I don't know physics well enough to go into it.

Here's the question: Are laws the descriptions of patterns in nature? Or are they forces that makes things "do stuff"? Or what?

I think it's both "patterns that emerge" and "forces that act on matter". I only had a couple introductory courses on physics so am unsure.

The way creationists write about laws, they tend to treat laws like ideas ruling over matter, as something distinct from matter. I've seen some creationists talk about them the same way they sometimes speak of rules of logic... something immaterial and prior even to the universe.

I figure the pull of gravity, for an example, is inherent to matter so the pattern or force isn't somehow "put there" to rule over matter... Rather, the force and the patterns it makes are matter's innate characteristics.

Please correct me in all my mistakes here. I have curiosity about the theist mind, but much more about science.
What we call 'laws of nature' are essentially formal expressions we use to represent our understanding of our experience of our natural environment. They are definitely human constructs but it's probably the case any intelligent species would come up with something very similar. Similar but not identical. So laws of nature are probably profoundly human... in nature.
EB
Bull ... shit. Bullshit!
 
What we call 'laws of nature' are essentially formal expressions we use to represent our understanding of our experience of our natural environment. They are definitely human constructs but it's probably the case any intelligent species would come up with something very similar. Similar but not identical. So laws of nature are probably profoundly human... in nature.
EB
Bull ... shit. Bullshit!

P1 Bull
P2 Shit

C1 Bullshit​

Excellent! Well done!

Very well constructed and apparently a very valid argument. God Himself wouldn't do better.

Clearly, there's nothing to argue beyond this point.


Hey, this is such a stark departure from your usual gentlemanly sedate style, are you high on something by any chance?

Or is it, God forbid, that the spirit of Juma suddenly took hold of your grey matter?
EB
 
That distinction is a matter of whether the law is a prescriptive statement (don't murder anybody) or a descriptive statement (water boils at 100°C). Prescriptions and descriptions are both products of human brains. It's just nitpicking on my part; in the end, it's true that water boils at 100°C, whether we interpret that statement as an inherent property of water or a verbal elucidation of some observed pattern. I prefer to think of it the second way, because if you say laws are real things that are part of the universe, it's strange that we can't find them anywhere in the universe. I'm not saying reality depends on someone looking at it or anything so esoteric, just that the particular ways humans parse reality into sentences that capture aspects of it should not be mistaken for a fundamental underlying reality, which we don't have access to although we have good reason to suppose it exists.
Sentences are human dependent. The actual expressing of a sentence is human dependent.
Not really, no.

An artificial intelligence designed in another galaxy by some utterly alien civilisation could conceivably invent and use the same language as we do. Very unlikely of course but logically possible since it would in fact be a matter of sheer probabilities. Much less probable than 1/52! but still logically possible. Nothing metaphysical about that.

That which is expressed, however, is a statement, and though statements made by humans require human beings, a statement is often considered not to be much unlike a proposition which does not in any way shape or form require a human.
A statement can just as well be the sentences uttered or the supposed meaning motivating these sentences. Either way, a statement is as profoundly human as any sentence in a human language is since if it's understood as referring to the possible meaning, the meaning in question is always one inferred by one human being or another. And different meaning may well be inferred by different human beings, so the notion that a statement is like a proposition gets into the same kind of trouble as sentences do, namely that there will always be an embarrassing multiplicity of them.

And, the term "proposition" originally just means the act of making known your intention, very similar to "statement" and "sentence", and again something profoundly human if performed by a human. It's only rather recently that people have started to invent a new concept of proposition with the increased reliance on formal expressions in philosophy, the sciences, maths, and logic.

More importantly, the view you defend here is highly metaphysical. There's no objective evidence of any proposition in this latest sense. All that we have is our subjective experience and our belief that there's an external world corresponding to it. So the educated guess is that propositions are just idealised versions of what we mean when we utter sentences, i.e. make statements, and that the metaphysically inclined will try to make hay out of it. Your notion of proposition does no job that a rational view of mankind cannot do without using it.



The sentence, "water boils at 100C" did not exist before humans come to exist, so such a sentence at such a time before man could never have been uttered, but the proposition that would have been expressed during a time when there were no humans had there been humans to express it is true independent of a human to express such a sentence--precisely because propositions are atemporal. Although the distinction between a sentence and a proposition is great, the divide between a proposition and a statement is less enough and similar enough to regard statements as propositions in this context.
Again, it's logically possible that an alien species or an AI inadvertently visiting the Earth before mankind could come up with the very sentence "water boils at 100°C" to mean that water boils at 100°C. No big deal. The reason is that the fact that water boils at 100°C would have been true before human beings could see for themselves how hot is boiling water. So what was true then is not some metaphysical proposition but the fact itself, and this interpretation is just so much more economical and razor-like and Occam-friendly.
EB
 
That distinction is a matter of whether the law is a prescriptive statement (don't murder anybody) or a descriptive statement (water boils at 100°C). Prescriptions and descriptions are both products of human brains. It's just nitpicking on my part; in the end, it's true that water boils at 100°C, whether we interpret that statement as an inherent property of water or a verbal elucidation of some observed pattern. I prefer to think of it the second way, because if you say laws are real things that are part of the universe, it's strange that we can't find them anywhere in the universe. I'm not saying reality depends on someone looking at it or anything so esoteric, just that the particular ways humans parse reality into sentences that capture aspects of it should not be mistaken for a fundamental underlying reality, which we don't have access to although we have good reason to suppose it exists.
It's not entirely idiotic to claim that there are laws of nature that would exist beyond the formal expressions scientists use to represent the regularities we find in nature. One big problem, though, would be that you would have the regularities themselves, which are matters of facts, and then distinct from that somehow the laws of nature, which starts to look like a needless duplication. And then the laws of nature would have to be somehow effective so that there would have to be mechanisms by which the laws of nature would make nature behave according to them. Without such a mechanism, the laws of nature wouldn't be laws at all. They would in fact be much like formal expression of the regularities found in nature. But then there would have to be a mechanism making the laws somehow correspond to the regularities of nature. And it starts to look absolutely ludicrous and incoherent unless this mechanism is understood to be human beings and their ability to observe and represent nature. No brainer.
EB
 
Laws of nature exist independent of man. It's not something we've invented. It's some regularity we've discovered through observation and spoke of to describe and predict those regularities.
If laws of nature are regularities then don't call them laws of nature, call them regularities.

And of course, regularity just means that nature appears to us observers as if it was following a rule. But there's no rule either. It's just the way nature is.
EB
 
untermensche said:
This is exactly what you said. "the laws are derived by the way things act"

But when I say it you say "no".

I see a hysteric all over the place and not understanding what they are reading.

No, what you said was:

What we know is how things act because the "laws" are there.

You are saying that the laws make things act a particular way. This is not so. Things act a particular way, and we write "laws" that are descriptions as to how they act.

It comes down to cause.
 
Laws of nature exist independent of man. It's not something we've invented. It's some regularity we've discovered through observation and spoke of to describe and predict those regularities.
If laws of nature are regularities then don't call them laws of nature, call them regularities.

And of course, regularity just means that nature appears to us observers as if it was following a rule. But there's no rule either. It's just the way nature is.
EB

That's what I was trying to get at with my comment. Calling them laws gives ammunition to believers to then ask who "wrote" the laws, as if each law were a discrete line of code in a computer program that needed to be planned out ahead of time.

Even regularities are somewhat mind-dependent, in that the qualities we select for comparison to each other over many repetitions are not "built into" nature waiting to be found, they are carved out by observers looking for patterns. Obviously this doesn't mean observers cause nature to behave regularly, just that the concept of regularity depends upon other concepts that are overlaid on reality by observers.
 
yes. The "neutral tool of measure" is the set of objective facts.

When you say, "in the early debates", I read that as, "what was once thought long ago"... things like "if you walk too far, you will fall off the edge of the Earth". the set of observable facts were much fewer during the "early debates".

Neutral facts is in the context of "origins unknown". Just because its there to observe but "not understood" should tells us this is not a good rule of measure regarding reasons for any argument for existence (against creationists).
 
Hey, this is such a stark departure from your usual gentlemanly sedate style, are you high on something by any chance?

Or is it, God forbid, that the spirit of Juma suddenly took hold of your grey matter?
EB
I apologize. If it means anything, in person, it would have sounded pleasant in a friendly sort of way. I was asking my bestie to do something the other day and she looked at me with 'that look.' I explained I wasn't being rude; it's just that my please was being silent, lol.
 
Laws of nature exist independent of man. It's not something we've invented. It's some regularity we've discovered through observation and spoke of to describe and predict those regularities.
If laws of nature are regularities then don't call them laws of nature, call them regularities.

And of course, regularity just means that nature appears to us observers as if it was following a rule. But there's no rule either. It's just the way nature is.
EB

I'm ok with that... and so is the body of Science as a whole.. we do not write "laws" anymore... not because we wrote them all, but basically because of what you just said. The word "law" is a poor descriptor of what it is.
 
yes. The "neutral tool of measure" is the set of objective facts.

When you say, "in the early debates", I read that as, "what was once thought long ago"... things like "if you walk too far, you will fall off the edge of the Earth". the set of observable facts were much fewer during the "early debates".

Neutral facts is in the context of "origins unknown". Just because its there to observe but "not understood" should tells us this is not a good rule of measure regarding reasons for any argument for existence (against creationists).

I know of no scientific argument for existence (against creationists - or anyone else). Can you site one? Who is arguing against existence?
Facts are not measures... they are data points. Measures are meaningful thresholds within data sets.

I think I've lost track of what you are trying to say.
 
Hey, this is such a stark departure from your usual gentlemanly sedate style, are you high on something by any chance?

Or is it, God forbid, that the spirit of Juma suddenly took hold of your grey matter?
EB
I apologize. If it means anything, in person, it would have sounded pleasant in a friendly sort of way. I was asking my bestie to do something the other day and she looked at me with 'that look.' I explained I wasn't being rude; it's just that my please was being silent, lol.

nice... I'm using that with my wife next opportunity... "When spelling 'get me a beer', the 'please' is silent." OK, I'll work on it some more... but thanks.
 
yes. The "neutral tool of measure" is the set of objective facts.

When you say, "in the early debates", I read that as, "what was once thought long ago"... things like "if you walk too far, you will fall off the edge of the Earth". the set of observable facts were much fewer during the "early debates".

Neutral facts is in the context of "origins unknown". Just because its there to observe but "not understood" should tells us this is not a good rule of measure regarding reasons for any argument for existence (against creationists).

Is 'to observe but not understand' (to paraphrase a bit) the same thing as failing to say why things exist or why they do what they do?

When people want to know 'the What' or 'the How' about existence (observe and describe it), is that a failure to fully understand nature for leaving out 'the Why'? I think it seems to you that "atheistic" science comes up short of explaining existence for having said a What or How instead of a Why. I think, for you, anyone who doesn't know "the Why" of existence (the origin and thus the mind "behind" it) is stuck in a state of "I don't know-ism".
 
What we call 'laws of nature' are essentially formal expressions we use to represent our understanding of our experience of our natural environment. They are definitely human constructs but it's probably the case any intelligent species would come up with something very similar. Similar but not identical. So laws of nature are probably profoundly human... in nature.
EB

So why did we produce a gold record, laying our understanding of the laws of nature out presuming any 'intelligent' species might decode, read, and agree with them, then send it out into the galaxy?
 
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