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Leaving woke culture and God

I did not know much about the musical, I thought it came out later than 1967 more like 1969. Holy crap, the cultural vanguard was moving fast as lightning then.

Also, in the movie scene her boyfriend is rude to her before she sings - not sure about the play.

Finally the movie came out in 1979.

According to Wikipedia the musical was first performed in 1967. In my opinion, interpreting it as a crafty satire of the counter culture is a bit of a stretch.

The film and the musical are quite different in what they are trying to be.

The stage musical is mostly about using profanity on stage and being naked. Shock value. I think the story was secondary. That's why it became famous. The ambition level of the productions couldn't be more different.

But just like the film its made by people in the culture poking fun at themselves. They were NOT trying to glorify the culture. The difference is that when they made the film its made by and for ex-hippies rather than being made at the height of the culture. That makes it quite different.

A major difference is that what shocked people in 1967 was seen as competely harmless in 1980. The contexts change what it is trying to be.

I'm a spawn of hippies. I grew up in this shit

The music wasn't written to accompany the film (which most people see as vastly inferior to the stage production, if they've seen both).
 
Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane.

This quote is wild to me. "Why pull a lever that could save a life (that could help you build a shelter perhaps) when you might break a nail doing it?"

I consider this sociopathic behaviour.
 
Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane.

This quote is wild to me. "Why pull a lever that could save a life (that could help you build a shelter perhaps) when you might break a nail doing it?"

I consider this sociopathic behaviour.

You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.
 
Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane.

This quote is wild to me. "Why pull a lever that could save a life (that could help you build a shelter perhaps) when you might break a nail doing it?"

I consider this sociopathic behaviour.

You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.

Not sure if your making an "is altruism real" argument here or something else.

Heather McGee, author of "Sum of Us" cites an example I want to raise here. In a nutshell, When segregation was abolished in the 50's, townships drained their public swimming pools instead of integrating. So no one swam. You can apply this to health care, better social safety nets, etc...

So yes, your argument is true for those you criticize as "woke" - they want a better society for themselves by improving it for everyone.

What many see as "virtue signaling", is more often than not someone attempting to speak out on behalf of a better society.
 
You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.

Not sure if your making an "is altruism real" argument here or something else.

Heather McGee, author of "Sum of Us" cites an example I want to raise here. In a nutshell, When segregation was abolished in the 50's, townships drained their public swimming pools instead of integrating. So no one swam. You can apply this to health care, better social safety nets, etc...

So yes, your argument is true for those you criticize as "woke" - they want a better society for themselves by improving it for everyone.

What many see as "virtue signaling", is more often than not someone attempting to speak out on behalf of a better society.
How, in the name of Odin, can they think that separating society into competing racial and/or sexual stereotypes and pitting them against each other is creating a better society.

I tend to think that the better society would be one where, as Dr. King put it, a society where people are judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Instead, the woke culture's greatest curse and put-down is "you are a white male"... meaning evil scum. They assert that all white people are racists simply by virtue of being white. This woke mindset is taking us back to the 1950's segregation ideas with minorities in universities demanding racially separate dorms, separate study groups, separate graduation ceremonies, etc.
 
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You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.

Not sure if your making an "is altruism real" argument here or something else.

Heather McGee, author of "Sum of Us" cites an example I want to raise here. In a nutshell, When segregation was abolished in the 50's, townships drained their public swimming pools instead of integrating. So no one swam. You can apply this to health care, better social safety nets, etc...

So yes, your argument is true for those you criticize as "woke" - they want a better society for themselves by improving it for everyone.

What many see as "virtue signaling", is more often than not someone attempting to speak out on behalf of a better society.
How, in the name of Odin, can they think that separating society into competing racial and/or sexual stereotypes and pitting them against each other is creating a better society.

I tend to think that the better society would be one where, as Dr. King put it, a society where people are judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Instead, the woke culture's greatest curse and put-down is "you are a white male"... meaning evil scum. They assert that all white people are racists simply by virtue of being white. This woke mindset is taking us back to the 1950's segregation ideas with minorities in universities demanding racially separate dorms, separate study groups, separate graduation ceremonies, etc.

The point of the example I used is to illustrate that the default of society is not racial harmony. People are judged by the color of their skin.

The answer isn't to homogenize culture.

What these horrible "woke" monsters want is society to be accepting of others' cultures and beliefs, but wish to address the issues that account for specific groups having negative outcomes on a generational level. We know that it's not a genetic thing, as it's been proven that there is more genetic variation between individuals of the same race as there are between races. So we know that the problem is social.

It's not "woke" people who are slicing and dicing up society - they are the one's acknowledging the deeply rooted racial inequity and want to do something to fix it. Again, it's not about making people the same so they are easy to govern, it's about creating a society where people can be who ever they want, practice whatever religion, etc...but without the inequity.

We know inequity exists because it's been studied and analyzed for decades.

Again, I used the example in the previous post to illustrate the cost of racism - racism that has been around loooong before "woke" culture.

Woke culture did not invent racism. They are pointing it out.
 
How, in the name of Odin, can they think that separating society into competing racial and/or sexual stereotypes and pitting them against each other is creating a better society.

I tend to think that the better society would be one where, as Dr. King put it, a society where people are judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Instead, the woke culture's greatest curse and put-down is "you are a white male"... meaning evil scum. They assert that all white people are racists simply by virtue of being white. This woke mindset is taking us back to the 1950's segregation ideas with minorities in universities demanding racially separate dorms, separate study groups, separate graduation ceremonies, etc.

The point of the example I used is to illustrate that the default of society is not racial harmony. People are judged by the color of their skin.
They are by racists. But most people are not racists although the woke culture is full of racists promoting racial stereotypes and racial strife.
The answer isn't to homogenize culture.

What these horrible "woke" monsters want is society to be accepting of others' cultures and beliefs, but wish to address the issues that account for specific groups having negative outcomes on a generational level. We know that it's not a genetic thing, as it's been proven that there is more genetic variation between individuals of the same race as there are between races. So we know that the problem is social.

It's not "woke" people who are slicing and dicing up society - they are the one's acknowledging the deeply rooted racial inequity and want to do something to fix it. Again, it's not about making people the same so they are easy to govern, it's about creating a society where people can be who ever they want, practice whatever religion, etc...but without the inequity.

We know inequity exists because it's been studied and analyzed for decades.

Again, I used the example in the previous post to illustrate the cost of racism - racism that has been around loooong before "woke" culture.

Woke culture did not invent racism. They are pointing it out.
Woke culture did not invent racism but it is certainly promoting it as they hold animosity and hatred for all members of one race and encourage others to also hate them.

If you hold to the currently accepted woke idea that all whites are racists then that is the definition of racism. It is odd how racists can not see themselves as racists, they "just know" that the group they have identified as the outgroup are inferior.
 
If you hold to the currently accepted woke idea that all whites are racists

That's BS. Strawman. You are arguing against an imaginary enemy.

We are talking past each other here as well. I haven't come across people saying all white people are racist.
 
If you hold to the currently accepted woke idea that all whites are racists

That's BS. Strawman. You are arguing against an imaginary enemy.

We are talking past each other here as well. I haven't come across people saying all white people are racist.

Is it that you know nothing of critical race theory or are you just pretending that you don't? I assumed you did since you have offered some of what it teaches.
 
You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.

Not sure if your making an "is altruism real" argument here or something else.

Heather McGee, author of "Sum of Us" cites an example I want to raise here. In a nutshell, When segregation was abolished in the 50's, townships drained their public swimming pools instead of integrating. So no one swam. You can apply this to health care, better social safety nets, etc...

So yes, your argument is true for those you criticize as "woke" - they want a better society for themselves by improving it for everyone.

What many see as "virtue signaling", is more often than not someone attempting to speak out on behalf of a better society.

If you want a better society by improving it for everyone you are improving it for yourself. So you are not sacrificing anything, which defeats your original argument. What you challenged was my statement that nobody will give up privileges if they risk losing something they care about having.

We live in a world of abundance. It wasn't long ago when we didn't. It has changed our behaviour. The cost of generosity has never been lower. But it still has a cost.

We now laugh at the silly township people draining the swimming pools. But I'd argue what sets them apart from the current woke is just the level of fear. The woke don't fear they risk losing anything by their talk. That's why they do it. We've developed intricate social games to keep poor people out. To allow us to say anti racist say but secure in the knowledge we're not likely to meet many.

My experiences is that today the left is a lot more racist than the right. The difference is that racist conservatives are honest about it. While the left is riddled with The racism of low expectations". They often treat anyone of colour as cultural tokens. Rather than real people.

But then again my experiences are from Sweden and Denmark. So hardly universal.
 
You got to try harder than that. You've just exaggerated my statement to it's most extreme to the point where it's silly. I did volunteer in a homeless shelter for a while. I did not break a nail doing it. Why did I do it? Because it was incredibly rewarding. I got a lot of out of it. I'm not sure I saved any lives. But I certainly helped quite a few of them out of some pretty horrific circumstances, like helping an illegal homeless immigrant acquire the AIDS medication she needed. But it cost me absolutely nothing. Not only did it cost me nothing, but it was pure benefit to me. It made me feel great about myself. Why did it stop? I'd done it already for a while. It got repetitive and a bit boring.

People can get benefits from doing things for others. What I don't think is that anybody would voluntarily sacrifice anything if there's nothing in it for them, emotionally.

Not sure if your making an "is altruism real" argument here or something else.

Heather McGee, author of "Sum of Us" cites an example I want to raise here. In a nutshell, When segregation was abolished in the 50's, townships drained their public swimming pools instead of integrating. So no one swam. You can apply this to health care, better social safety nets, etc...

So yes, your argument is true for those you criticize as "woke" - they want a better society for themselves by improving it for everyone.

What many see as "virtue signaling", is more often than not someone attempting to speak out on behalf of a better society.

If you want a better society by improving it for everyone you are improving it for yourself. So you are not sacrificing anything, which defeats your original argument. What you challenged was my statement that nobody will give up privileges if they risk losing something they care about having.

We live in a world of abundance. It wasn't long ago when we didn't. It has changed our behaviour. The cost of generosity has never been lower. But it still has a cost.

We now laugh at the silly township people draining the swimming pools. But I'd argue what sets them apart from the current woke is just the level of fear. The woke don't fear they risk losing anything by their talk. That's why they do it. We've developed intricate social games to keep poor people out. To allow us to say anti racist say but secure in the knowledge we're not likely to meet many.

My experiences is that today the left is a lot more racist than the right. The difference is that racist conservatives are honest about it. While the left is riddled with The racism of low expectations". They often treat anyone of colour as cultural tokens. Rather than real people.

But then again my experiences are from Sweden and Denmark. So hardly universal.

So if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that all white people are racist? That it manifests in different ways depending on your political alliance? Is that it?

Also -the swimming pool story is an analogy for Health Care, eliminating student debt, etc...
 
If you want a better society by improving it for everyone you are improving it for yourself. So you are not sacrificing anything, which defeats your original argument. What you challenged was my statement that nobody will give up privileges if they risk losing something they care about having.

We live in a world of abundance. It wasn't long ago when we didn't. It has changed our behaviour. The cost of generosity has never been lower. But it still has a cost.

We now laugh at the silly township people draining the swimming pools. But I'd argue what sets them apart from the current woke is just the level of fear. The woke don't fear they risk losing anything by their talk. That's why they do it. We've developed intricate social games to keep poor people out. To allow us to say anti racist say but secure in the knowledge we're not likely to meet many.

My experiences is that today the left is a lot more racist than the right. The difference is that racist conservatives are honest about it. While the left is riddled with The racism of low expectations". They often treat anyone of colour as cultural tokens. Rather than real people.

But then again my experiences are from Sweden and Denmark. So hardly universal.

So if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that all white people are racist? That it manifests in different ways depending on your political alliance? Is that it?

Also -the swimming pool story is an analogy for Health Care, eliminating student debt, etc...

If I'm to understand you here, you will have to walk me through the logic. How am I implying that all white people are racist?

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about
 
If you want a better society by improving it for everyone you are improving it for yourself. So you are not sacrificing anything, which defeats your original argument. What you challenged was my statement that nobody will give up privileges if they risk losing something they care about having.

We live in a world of abundance. It wasn't long ago when we didn't. It has changed our behaviour. The cost of generosity has never been lower. But it still has a cost.

We now laugh at the silly township people draining the swimming pools. But I'd argue what sets them apart from the current woke is just the level of fear. The woke don't fear they risk losing anything by their talk. That's why they do it. We've developed intricate social games to keep poor people out. To allow us to say anti racist say but secure in the knowledge we're not likely to meet many.

My experiences is that today the left is a lot more racist than the right. The difference is that racist conservatives are honest about it. While the left is riddled with The racism of low expectations". They often treat anyone of colour as cultural tokens. Rather than real people.

But then again my experiences are from Sweden and Denmark. So hardly universal.

So if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that all white people are racist? That it manifests in different ways depending on your political alliance? Is that it?

Also -the swimming pool story is an analogy for Health Care, eliminating student debt, etc...

If I'm to understand you here, you will have to walk me through the logic. How am I implying that all white people are racist?

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about

We acknowledge cost. It's just that the right deaminize our claims. We insist on justifying why we believe cost are well spent. The "well spent" part is what we are dishonest about. Deep down we know corruption arises in government programs based on the very needs that the drive, greed, a primary human tendency that motivates the right, is actually an important driver of human behavior.
 
If I'm to understand you here, you will have to walk me through the logic. How am I implying that all white people are racist?

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about

We acknowledge cost. It's just that the right deaminize our claims. We insist on justifying why we believe cost are well spent. The "well spent" part is what we are dishonest about. Deep down we know corruption arises in government programs based on the very needs that the drive, greed, a primary human tendency that motivates the right, is actually an important driver of human behavior.

Do we really? There's a lot on the left with their heads in the clouds.
 
This is hilarious, but also sad the levels of white guilt...

The title and thumbnail have nothing to do with the topic.

 
If I'm to understand you here, you will have to walk me through the logic. How am I implying that all white people are racist?

You stated that people on the right are racist, and so are people on the left. I guess that doesn't apply to ALL people but 99% of political discourse is from these 2 sides

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about

That's not what the analogy means. It means that everybody loses if we are unwilling to progress, not just racial minorities.

There are benefits to society as a whole if we can lower the financial burden (eliminating student debt) of young people entering the work force, from higher birth rates, to buying houses, putting money back into the economy, starting small businesses (which create more jobs), and more... This is what economists say, the cost is a net positive.

However, if you go to a Twitter thread debating erasing student debt, the number one argument against it you will hear is "I had to pay my debt, so why shouldn't everyone else?" or "I've paid my debt, now I have to pay everyone else's?" - This is the swimming pool analogy.

So what's going on here? We know from studies that people tend to sort themselves into groups (or identities) naturally without any provocation. (The left didn't invent identity, or identity politics). We also know that people are willing to help those of similar identity, and will disadvantage those who are outside their identity, Sometimes even at a cost to themselves (the swimming pool example).

The thought of helping those outside of their identity is a deal killer. The ploy of modern (alt) right wing politics is to highlight divisions, create fear between them, and then cut social programs that help the victims of their racist society.

But again, the answer isn't to homogenize culture. We are going to belong to different identity groups no matter what we do. That is reality. It's not racist to acknowledge that as you state. It's fascist to try and change that. The solution is to create a culture where people's differences are celebrated, and build an inclusive society where we can implement progressive programs that benefit society as a whole, and in turn provide net benefit for everyone.

I want to emphasize that different Identities within a society is inevitable, and makes for a more robust dynamic culture. It is a strength. The right uses it against society to achieve its goals of lowering taxes on the wealthy, and to maintain a social hierarchy where their identity group remains at the top. (John Birch society)

When you say "everything comes at a cost" - be aware that there are policies that are a net positive. Enabling society as a whole is a positive. Burdening groups within our society is a net negative and has known costs.
 
If I'm to understand you here, you will have to walk me through the logic. How am I implying that all white people are racist?

You stated that people on the right are racist, and so are people on the left. I guess that doesn't apply to ALL people but 99% of political discourse is from these 2 sides

I don't think that I did. But you give an excellent example of how we tend to only focus on the worst aspects of the people on the other side.

The left have a hard time reconciling the idea that a conservatist is against immigration, while also NOT being a racist. Yes, those people exist and I think are the majority of those against immigration. We really should be better at not projecting bullshit on eachother. Just my two cents.

I understand the analogy. But my argument still stands. It's about fear and the fear of what you might lose if you support the elimination of student debt.

Everything has a cost. Which is something we on the left tend to be bad at being honest about

That's not what the analogy means. It means that everybody loses if we are unwilling to progress, not just racial minorities.

There are benefits to society as a whole if we can lower the financial burden (eliminating student debt) of young people entering the work force, from higher birth rates, to buying houses, putting money back into the economy, starting small businesses (which create more jobs), and more... This is what economists say, the cost is a net positive.

However, if you go to a Twitter thread debating erasing student debt, the number one argument against it you will hear is "I had to pay my debt, so why shouldn't everyone else?" or "I've paid my debt, now I have to pay everyone else's?" - This is the swimming pool analogy.

So what's going on here? We know from studies that people tend to sort themselves into groups (or identities) naturally without any provocation. (The left didn't invent identity, or identity politics). We also know that people are willing to help those of similar identity, and will disadvantage those who are outside their identity, Sometimes even at a cost to themselves (the swimming pool example).

The thought of helping those outside of their identity is a deal killer. The ploy of modern (alt) right wing politics is to highlight divisions, create fear between them, and then cut social programs that help the victims of their racist society.

But again, the answer isn't to homogenize culture. We are going to belong to different identity groups no matter what we do. That is reality. It's not racist to acknowledge that as you state. It's fascist to try and change that. The solution is to create a culture where people's differences are celebrated, and build an inclusive society where we can implement progressive programs that benefit society as a whole, and in turn provide net benefit for everyone.

I want to emphasize that different Identities within a society is inevitable, and makes for a more robust dynamic culture. It is a strength. The right uses it against society to achieve its goals of lowering taxes on the wealthy, and to maintain a social hierarchy where their identity group remains at the top. (John Birch society)

When you say "everything comes at a cost" - be aware that there are policies that are a net positive. Enabling society as a whole is a positive. Burdening groups within our society is a net negative and has known costs.


In India students get zero help from the government and tend to pick fields of study which will lead to a well paying job. This is why India has so many female engineers, compared to the west. They have few frivolous students.

In Sweden higher education isn't only free, but you get a salary for studying. So a lot of people go to university just to be able to be lazy or score chicks. I did this when I lived there. Which is why my first degree was in philosophy and logic. Good to have studied, but from a macro economic perspective, absolute bullshit and a waste of money. Sweden has plenty of people who have been in school most of their adult life. Usually they already have a job, but do the studies on the side for fun.

I'm for the Swedish system, I think it is good. But I also understand that it has a cost. The incentives aren't encouraging people to study things that will lead to generating money. Which would be nice if the state is paying.

I understand if conservatives don't like supporting people through school when the incentives will change.

Americans are more focused on making money than Swedes. Because we have a socialist system. Incentives matter. Conservatives aren't immoral monsters for valuing money in this case. I don't think so. I think both sides have excellent arguments.

I'm from Sweden BTW. I just live in Denmark now. But Denmark has the same system. Works the same way.
 
JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd
 
JohnG, FYI I notice how you conflate everyone on the right as alt right. They're not. Alt right are neo-fascist. Lots of conservatists are the same kind of conservatives that fought against Hitler.

Conflating these is absurd

He also separates people into groups then stereotypes them. The only difference between his worldview and the worldview of those he sees as evil is which group is identified as "evil" and which is "good". There is no place in such a worldview for the worldview that individuals are valuable and should be judged individually for their individual actions. I tend to see individuals as valuable not arbitrary groupings.
 
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