Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's the reality: if someone ACTUALLY passes, they're not going to get challenged. Because they pass. Passing means that nobody can tell, and if nobody can tell, then nobody can tell. It's not ideal by any means, but if you can successfully cheat and not get caught, then you succeed. So if a man has all the surgeries, including all the ffm and tracheal shaving, and behaves appropriately, then hooray for him, he gets away with it.

But most do NOT pass. And the men who've made this an issue don't pass at all, and furthermore don't think that they should even have to try to pass - they genuinely think that them simply *saying* that they're women is enough. And I very strongly disagree.

And how do you know this?

Because my SIL is one of those "don't pass" people. Except she really is female.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Oh, so now it's just peeping that's the crime we're trying to prevent. Which is weird, because you have gone on and on about how much time you spend looking at other women's genitals in bathrooms.

It's fairly transparent, of course, that one end goal of this line of thinking is the banning of gays from the same spaces. Once you've gotten what you want with regard to trans people but still need something to campaign about, the next group to be accused of future crimes will be obvious.

Yeah, the desired endgame is obvious.

And note that in a situation like this peeping is pretty much unproveable in either direction. Thus you can't establish it isn't happening.

 

[seanie]

The Supreme Court judgment upheld gay rights, in particular the freedom of association.

 

[TomC]

I agree they are not female, but they are women.

So what definition are you using for “women”?

And what term should be used for humans who are both adult and female?

For what it's worth,
I try to stick with female when describing a person's sex. Woman is describing their gender. You've blurred that line a few times, although I don't think it matters much in context. Language and culture norms are very slow to change.
I suspect that @Jarhyn (and likely the staff) would be upset if I used the more precise gender neutral singular pronoun when I referred to "them". That is "it".

Similarly, I'm a nudist. I don't care who sees me in my birthday suit. It's around 80F here, and I'm planning a trip to the grocery store. Why should I bother with the feelings of some textiles who don't want to see my junk and hairy ass? Why do people insist that I wear clothes?
Tom

 

[seanie]

I’m really asking people to define their terms.

 

[seanie]

Saying a woman is anyone who considers themselves a woman is hopeless.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, just keep males out of female only spaces, and provide third spaces if necessary.

It’s a manageable issue.

Retrofit third spaces how?

Let's go back several years. My wife got hurt while we were visiting her family. While she could walk it was only with considerable pain. She was taking absolutely as few steps as she could and only with assistance. Time to fly home. PVG is a modern airport, built this century when there was a recognition of the need for family restrooms. No problem. Connection, LAX. That airport has been there quite a while, no family restrooms, no place to put family restrooms--I walked the entire terminal in case there were just a few. I had to wheel her into the men's room.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let me get this straight. When white men say they are oppressed or victims of discrimination, you accept their word but when someone of color says they are oppressed or a victim of discrimination, you claim they aren’t.

I'm not taking anybody's word as to whether they are victims of discrimination--it's realistically impossible for someone to tell in all cases.

I'm using him as an example of the backlash that happens when you subject a population to discrimination.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Interesting that you believe you are being used as a punching bag because I suggested that maybe white men should try to put themselves in the position of women, and especially women of color. Especially given the statistics re: domestic abuse. Asking for empathy in your mind = treating you as a punching bag. That says way more about you as a person than it does me or about your politics or mine or anybody's.

And you illustrate the problem: you don't even recognize that you're using him as a punching bag. It is not that you are asking for empathy, it is that you are asking white males to accept second class citizen status as compensation for past wrongs they had no part in committing.

Second class citizen status? Really. That is hyperbolic nonsense. That concept is on par with Christians that are being “persecuted” just by people not bowing to them or letting them have exclusive access to public space for their holy displays.

Muslims regard all non-Muslims as second class citizens.

Perhaps some Muslins do but none that I’ve ever known. Of course many Americans regard the rest of the world as, at best, second class citizens. Plenty of Iranians and Saudis seem to regard most of the rest of the works as second class. Pretty sure that not that long ago, Germans regarded in-Aryans as sub human. We haven’ t even mentioned how whites viewed those they enslaved and indigenous people. Or that plenty of Americans are not much better today.

And of course, in most of the world, including in the US, ( some) people like to view women as second class citizens. In the US, women could not establish credit on their own or get a mortgage until the 1970’s, and a lot of people went tonnage it difficult for women to vote or control their own bodies or seek out the medical care they want or need. Women are still under treated for pain and for heart attacks, for example.

Islam declares them second class citizens. Just because not all moderates follow that doesn't mean it's not inherent.

 

[seanie]

Retrofit third spaces how?

Depends on the context. Not every space is segregated by sex. There are single occupancy spaces, such as disabled toilets and single rooms in hospitals instead of wards.

We’re told this is a tiny minority being persecuted.

Well if the numbers are that small, it doesn’t seem a huge problem to accommodate them.

Just as long as female only spaces are genuinely restricted to females, we’re all good.

 

[Emily Lake]

Sex is binary by its very nature.

That’s just evolution.

That is not evolution. In nature there are many species that do not have two sexes. Some have none or one or many. In some species individuals can switch between male and female. Do you deny their right to exist?

What species has many?

Bees and ants. The workers are usually described as "female", but they are far more different morphologically from queens than they are from males, and differ from both in their reproductive roles, so it would certainly be reasonable to classify them as a third (and perhaps fourth, fifth...) sex.

To reach maturity, an ant requires a female (queen), a male (aner), and many workers (in some species, of more than one physiological type, sometimes differentiated simply by age). The workers are chromosomally female, but look and act nothing like queens, and all three types are necessary for the offspring to survive.

Their overall morphology is different from the queen's, but their sterile reproductive systems are still female in development. Workers are females, and no biologist who isn't on drugs is going to tell you that ants and bees have more than two sexes.

Every mammal and bird is anisogamous. The overwhelming majority of vertebrates are anisogamous, though there are some amphibians and fish that are single-sexed and essentially clone without mixing reproductive material from more than one individual. One species of fish (I forget which) is all female, but in order to prompt the process of cloning, they hijack males from a close-ly related species to trick their ova into dividing. Anyway, I don't believe there are any species within the animal kingdom that have more than two sexes. I'm not sure about plants, but I know that some algae, and maybe some fungi have more than two gamete types that can combine in various pairs to reproduce.

 

[seanie]

I walked the entire terminal in case there were just a few. I had to wheel her into the men's room.

And that’s fine.

I don’t see any issue with one-off situations like that.

I was at the Taylor Swift concert in Edinburgh last year. 75,000 in attendance, about 70,000 female.

The females used the male cubicles in the gents, and the males kept their heads down at the urinals.

That’s fine. People make accommodations. Same as a mother taking a young boy into the ladies. That’s not the same as some 6’ bloke, who knows he doesn’t pass, going into the Ladies because he believes himself to be a woman. The sincerity or otherwise of his belief is irrelevant.

Given that there is a need for sex segregated spaces in some instances, and we already segregate on that basis and have done for some considerable time, you cannot have a policy where that’s just self-ID.

 

[seanie]

As you say, it worked. There wasn't a problem until the Republicans needed a bogeyman.

And yet, mystifyingly, the Republicans aren’t in Scotland.

Who knew other countries existed, eh?

 

[Emily Lake]

Once in a while, a transsexual would come in. And despite the narrative, most do not pass at anything more than a glancing look. We could usually tell they were males... but as long as they were minding their own business, keeping their eyes to themselves, and were clearly trying to not make anyone uncomfortable, we would leave them their dignity. But it was at our discretion, on a case by case basis. And we had the comfort of knowing that if he got out of line, it was our prerogative to ask them to leave.

It was never "everyone decides for themselves".

As you say, it worked. There wasn't a problem until the Republicans needed a bogeyman.

No, not really.

There wasn't a problem as long as gatekeeping was an expectation and requirement. It worked when men with gender identity issues were required to have psychiatric counseling and therapy and clinical oversight in order to obtain legal recognition of their altered gender. It worked because women *trusted* that doctors and regulators had taken our needs and safety into consideration.

That's not how it works now - and it's NOT the fault of republicans. It's not republicans who have pushed for fiat self-id, no gatekeeping, and any man who says he's a woman being given an unassailable privilege to use female single sex spaces. It's not republicans who put forth and supported legislation that allows male prisoners to be transferred to female prisons with absolutely no surgery or psychiatric counseling of any sort, just because they declare that the feel like a woman inside their brains. It's not republicans who advocated for and supported males being allowed to play in female sports on the basis of their genery feels. It's not republicans who have advocated for and supported giving teenage boys the right to use the girl's locker room and toilets in school as long as they say magic words.

 

[Emily Lake]

They are women.

In exactly what way are males with gender identity issues women?

What verifiable characteristics do they have in common with females of the human species that they do NOT have in common with males?

 

[seanie]

Again, what is meant by the term “Women”.

A coherent, non-circular definition is really required to support the position that some males are “women”.

Or is it just feelz?

 

[Emily Lake]

For the most part, for most individuals, sex is binary in terms of procreation potential. But that’s not an all inclusive way of looking at sex, whether it is an action or a way of being.

Any other way of looking at sex is ideologically driven faith, not science. Evolution doesn't give a single fuck about being inclusive, and sex is an evolutionary result.

Sex is defined based on the type of reproductive system within an anisogamous species. For ALL species that reproduce sexually (regardless of whether individuals in that species actually reproduce), there has evolved two different systems. One system evolved to support the production of small gametes, and we call individuals with that type of system males. Another different system evolved to support the production of large gametes, and we call individuals with that type of system females.

This definition of sex is universal across every single species that reproduces via the merging of two different-sized gametes. It does not require that any individual actually reproduce, it doesn't require that any individual be fertile, and it doesn't even require that every single element of a system is present or functional.

Sex is strictly binary in all anisogamous species.

 

[Emily Lake]

Perhaps you should just leave other people alone, unless and until they actually cause a problem.

Gotcha. Women shouldn't be allowed to take reasonable precautions to prevent harm, we should just suck it up until AFTER we're hurt. Wouldn't want to maybe make some male have hurt feelings, after all.

Does this approach extend to other arenas? Do you, for instance, oppose having age limits on daycares? Just let any adult who says they feel like a kid join in and play with the children until and unless they actually harm a kid? Do you oppose having minimum ages for drinking? Just let any kid who says they feel mature enough to hold their liquor down some booze until and unless they actually hurt someone? Do you oppose having laws against drunk driving? Just let anyone who says they feel like they're capable of controlling a two ton machine at 40 mph drive themselves home until and unless they kill someone?

 

[Jarhyn]

I’m really asking people to define their terms.

I did define the terms male and female, or rather provided a pathway to a set selection that would create a definition.

That definition means that trans trans people post gonadectomy are not technically male OR female.

"Man" and "woman", however, are social group categories, in addition to this largely being used as shorthand for whichever social role group someone finds affinity to, owing to complex aspects of how brains form. They're simply not useful categories for government purposes.

There's some discussion behind what informs that in the other thread about puberty blockers, but there is also some discussion about the constellation of polymorphic structures, some of which are largely comorbid to sex group membership, and some of which are altogether outside that binary (see also "neuroatypical" presentations).

As you say, it worked. There wasn't a problem until the Republicans needed a bogeyman.

And yet, mystifyingly, the Republicans aren’t in Scotland.

Who knew other countries existed, eh?

Yes they do. "A shit by any other name still smells as rank".

Tories and conservatives are a global issue, and this is fashionable for them the world over.

Before the Republicans of the US were on it the Nazis of Germany were on it; the initial push of the Nazis was to eliminate research on trans issues in the burning of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft.

I just tend to call them Nazis though wherever they pop up.

 

[seanie]

As Emily eloquently explains, the binary of sex is well understood, and clearly defined.

What’s the definition of “gender”?