Let us not vote and complain about the outcome--we have the right!

[fast]

In the US, we have the right to vote, and I don't have an objection to the idea that with rights come responsibility, but I do not interpret that to mean we have a responsibility to vote; instead, I interpret that to mean that if we so choose to vote, then we should do so responsibly--like learning the issues and making informed decisions.

Similarly, we have a right to free speech. Of course, we don't have a responsibility to speak, but if we do, we should do so responsibly--like not yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

Clearly, my views are not in line with mainstream thought. Others would have me believe that I have an obligation to vote--and to choose the lesser of evils, and others would have me believe that I have an obligation to speak up and voice my opinion when faced with certain wrongs that transpire.

Is there an objective non-emotional way to arrive at a conclusion to show that my views are correct amidst the emotionally charged people who would reason why it's better to vote and speak our mind, or is the interpretative nature of such things destined to endless philosophical debate?

If I'm correct, it would seem that I do have a right to complain even if I don't vote, but hardly no one believes that.

By the way, I am a registered voter, and I do vote.

 

[bilby]

In the US, we have the right to vote, and I don't have an objection to the idea that with rights come responsibility, but I do not interpret that to mean we have a responsibility to vote; instead, I interpret that to mean that if we so choose to vote, then we should do so responsibly--like learning the issues and making informed decisions.

Similarly, we have a right to free speech. Of course, we don't have a responsibility to speak, but if we do, we should do so responsibly--like not yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

Clearly, my views are not in line with mainstream thought. Others would have me believe that I have an obligation to vote--and to choose the lesser of evils, and others would have me believe that I have an obligation to speak up and voice my opinion when faced with certain wrongs that transpire.

Is there an objective non-emotional way to arrive at a conclusion to show that my views are correct amidst the emotionally charged people who would reason why it's better to vote and speak our mind, or is the interpretative nature of such things destined to endless philosophical debate?

If I'm correct, it would seem that I do have a right to complain even if I don't vote, but hardly no one believes that.

By the way, I am a registered voter, and I do vote.

Everyone has the right to complain about stuff they dislike. But if they have made not even the slightest effort to prevent whatever misfortune they are bemoaning - for example by not even voting against the leader who is now pissing them off - then they open themselves to a reasonable charge of hypocrisy.

If my car breaks down, I might complain about it; If it occurs despite my not bothering to take it to a workshop for routine maintenance, I have less justification for complaint; and if it occurs despite my turning down an offer of free maintenance, I have less justification again.

If people have strong opinions on how their country, state or city are governed, and yet they don't engage in the democratic process at all, then they are being stupid, or lazy, or both. They can, of course, complain; but they shouldn't expect me (or anyone else) to do shit about it, when they have failed to do even something as easy and cheap as casting a vote.

Of course, there is a LOT more that one might potentially do than merely voting; and people whose sole contribution to the process is to cast a ballot once every few years are not much more justified in bitching about the outcome than those who do bugger all. If you really, really care, then running for office is a good option; or if that isn't your thing, supporting the campaign of someone whose ideas you largely agree with is a good choice - even if those ideas are insufficiently popular to have much chance of getting them elected, just getting them out there is a worthwhile exercise - the major parties will occasionally try to appeal to the minor party voters by adopting parts of their platform; but they almost never amend their manifestos an the basis of a guy in a pub whining about his lot to all and sundry.

 

[gmbteach]

I agree.

I am an Australian Citizen now, however, my brother, isn't. He has chosen to remain a permanent resident, but not take up citizenship, which I think relates back to his whole paranoia issues.

He had the hide to complain about the Premier of our state. I called him on it and said: 'Did you vote for him?' to which he replied 'I don't vote'. My response was simple: Don't complain about it if you have no intention of doing anything about it.

I can honestly say that I did not vote for either the state idiot or the federal embarrassment currently in office, therefore I can and WILL complain about what is happening.

 

[fast]

In the US, we have the right to vote, and I don't have an objection to the idea that with rights come responsibility, but I do not interpret that to mean we have a responsibility to vote; instead, I interpret that to mean that if we so choose to vote, then we should do so responsibly--like learning the issues and making informed decisions.

Similarly, we have a right to free speech. Of course, we don't have a responsibility to speak, but if we do, we should do so responsibly--like not yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

Clearly, my views are not in line with mainstream thought. Others would have me believe that I have an obligation to vote--and to choose the lesser of evils, and others would have me believe that I have an obligation to speak up and voice my opinion when faced with certain wrongs that transpire.

Is there an objective non-emotional way to arrive at a conclusion to show that my views are correct amidst the emotionally charged people who would reason why it's better to vote and speak our mind, or is the interpretative nature of such things destined to endless philosophical debate?

If I'm correct, it would seem that I do have a right to complain even if I don't vote, but hardly no one believes that.

By the way, I am a registered voter, and I do vote.

Everyone has the right to complain about stuff they dislike. But if they have made not even the slightest effort to prevent whatever misfortune they are bemoaning - for example by not even voting against the leader who is now pissing them off - then they open themselves to a reasonable charge of hypocrisy.

If my car breaks down, I might complain about it; If it occurs despite my not bothering to take it to a workshop for routine maintenance, I have less justification for complaint; and if it occurs despite my turning down an offer of free maintenance, I have less justification again.

If people have strong opinions on how their country, state or city are governed, and yet they don't engage in the democratic process at all, then they are being stupid, or lazy, or both. They can, of course, complain; but they shouldn't expect me (or anyone else) to do shit about it, when they have failed to do even something as easy and cheap as casting a vote.

Of course, there is a LOT more that one might potentially do than merely voting; and people whose sole contribution to the process is to cast a ballot once every few years are not much more justified in bitching about the outcome than those who do bugger all. If you really, really care, then running for office is a good option; or if that isn't your thing, supporting the campaign of someone whose ideas you largely agree with is a good choice - even if those ideas are insufficiently popular to have much chance of getting them elected, just getting them out there is a worthwhile exercise - the major parties will occasionally try to appeal to the minor party voters by adopting parts of their platform; but they almost never amend their manifestos an the basis of a guy in a pub whining about his lot to all and sundry.

That actually gives me something to think about. Thank you.

 

[Valjean]

If you vote you abdicate your right to complain.

As in a poker game, if you sit down at the table you agree to abide by the results. If you lose your shirt that's too bad. In playing the game you tacitly agree to abide by the rules and accept the results.
So it is with the vote.

However, if you did not sit down at the table, did not agree to play the game, and they still took your money -- then you'd have grounds to complain.

 

[bilby]

If you vote you abdicate your right to complain.

As in a poker game, if you sit down at the table you agree to abide by the results. If you lose your shirt that's too bad. In playing the game you tacitly agree to abide by the rules and accept the results.
So it is with the vote.

However, if you did not sit down at the table, did not agree to play the game, and they still took your money -- then you'd have grounds to complain.

By remaining a citizen, you are in the game. To stretch your metaphor, if you don't want to play the game, you don't get to hang around eating the food and drinking the beer, and then claim you owe no tab because you didn't sit at the card table.

If you stay in the country, using the roads and the schools, protected by the cops, the military and the fire department, eating food that was tested to ensure its safety, etc., etc., then you will be expected to pay. If you don't want to pay, you have leave.

Saudi Arabia might suit you - no taxes, no vote. You'll love it.

 

[Jayjay]

Saudi Arabia might suit you - no taxes, no vote. You'll love it.

If that were true, I surmise nobody pays taxes in Saudi Arabia except the royal family?

 

[Valjean]

Did I apply for citizenship? Did I claim I "owed no tab?"
I pay my taxes, do my job and generally behave myself. I donate to charities and do volunteer work. I'll even volunteer at local campaign headquarters to support candidates I like -- I just don't vote for them.

 

[bilby]

Did I apply for citizenship? Did I claim I "owed no tab?"
I pay my taxes, do my job and generally behave myself. I donate to charities and do volunteer work. I'll even volunteer at local campaign headquarters to support candidates I like -- I just don't vote for them.

I have no idea whether or not you applied for citizenship. Lots of people do. Regardless, you have the right to move elsewhere. By your own analogy, you are in the game, and if you lose because you deliberately ignore an opportunity for an advantage (however slight), that does not increase the validity of any complaints you may have about it.

 

[dismal]

People are brainwashed into thinking voting is important. In favor of it you get nothing but emotional arguments that border on delusion.

The math doesn't lie. Your individual act of voting is essentially meaningless.

 

[ksen]

That settles it then, let's just get rid of voting.

 

[Valjean]

Perhaps we should require voting.

It was by pure chance I was born in Ohio rather than Queensland. I'd actually love it if the US adopted the Australian system of mandatory voting. I could then vote without abdicating my right to complain about the result -- I could claim I was forced.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

That settles it then, let's just get rid of voting.

That would be after we kill the white people.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You absolutely have the right to complain about things if you don't vote. Why wouldn't you? This is one of the stupidest and most annoying memes that goes around.

Why should one attempt at social change validate or invalidate another? Voting, expecially in a gerrymandered first past he post system, can be pointless. Whining at the bar, where at least somebody may listen to you, may very well accomplish more.

Note how stupid it sounds if we turn the meme around: "If you don't march on Washington, you have no right to vote" / "If you don't voice your opinion, you have no right to vote. Stop secret ballots".

This is scary stuff, especially coming from people who are otherwise liberal minded.

 

[dismal]

That settles it then, let's just get rid of voting.

Prepare to have your mind blown:

Voting in general can be meaningful *and* your individual act of voting can be meaningless.

These things can (and in fact actually do) coexist.

 

[ksen]

That settles it then, let's just get rid of voting.

That would be after we kill the white people.

Of course.

- - - Updated - - -

That settles it then, let's just get rid of voting.

Prepare to have your mind blown:

Voting in general can be meaningful *and* your individual act of voting can be meaningless.

These things can (and in fact actually do) coexist.

 

[Nexus]

Regardless, you have the right to move elsewhere.

No you don't. Every square inch of this world has been claimed by sovereign nations and all have some restrictions.

 

[Valjean]

When the candidates are chosen by the power elite, to represent the interests of banks and corporations, can we really claim a representative democracy?
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

 

[bilby]

People are brainwashed into thinking voting is important. In favor of it you get nothing but emotional arguments that border on delusion.

The math doesn't lie. Your individual act of voting is essentially meaningless.

Absolutely. And the individual contribution of any one cell in your body is effectively nil too. If (or rather, when) one dies, it has zero effect on you. So they should all just die. It wouldn't matter at all. Right?

 

[bilby]

Perhaps we should require voting.

It was by pure chance I was born in Ohio rather than Queensland. I'd actually love it if the US adopted the Australian system of mandatory voting. I could then vote without abdicating my right to complain about the result -- I could claim I was forced.

If you did, you would be wrong.

Attendance is enforced (if you consider being fined $20 to be 'force'). But voting is not.

It is a secret ballot; nobody knows whether you marked your paper validly (or, indeed, at all). No one can determine, after the event, which voters cast invalid or blank ballots, and until and unless that changes, there is no way to 'force' anyone to vote.