• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Let's break the anti-communist taboo

Instead, it a creative commons sort of community where people might create stuff for many different reasons, including just because they are bored or because they found a solution that worked for them and wanted to share and share alike. It is a highly libertarian concept.

Why can’t you do that now? Doesn’t this happen already?
I could start citing Corey Doctorow's rants on DRM squeezing out everybody, but that was not the point of this particular thread. I might talk about that when I have gotten something meta to the subject out of my system. After that, I would be glad to give you a Corey Doctorow rant.

I am tired of the offensive stereotype of communists as authoritarian Marxists, and I am tired of told I am talking nonsense and trolling people when it turns out I am not an authoritarian Marxist in spite of identifying as a communist. We are not all authoritarian, and whether most people know it or not, it is possible for communism and capitalism to exist as part of the same economy. Just like Richard Stallman, I like both! I am not going to choose because both of them are excellent ideas for different reasons.

If somebody is going to demonize communists, then I am going to speak up and say something.

Communism is not something that it's legitimate to demonize people over. You probably have communism on your phone. That's what Android is. It's based on open source, and the very idea of open source exists because of a man named Richard Stallman. Your phone's software exists partly because of a man that supported communism but who also supported capitalism, which is why somebody was able to put a comfortable interface on the software and put it on a device that you were willing to give them money for. You are carrying communism in your pocket.

Not all communism is exclusionary. In spite of being a communist, my positions on most policy issues are actually normal for a Democrat. I mean I have a nephew that has cystic fibrosis, so I am no foe of the welfare state that currently helps keep him alive. Even so, I really have non-extreme, non-scary views. Most of my views are really mainstream.

Communism is valid as a part of a balanced, complex, moderate, intellectually inclusive political philosophy. It really should not be used as a political punching-bag. It is wrong to take people on bad faith over it.

Nearly the only people that treated gay and transgender people like human beings, in the 1980's and 1990's, were people in the open source community. The reason they did so was that they were damn decent people. Communal labor brings out something noble in people. You cannot measure it in dollar signs. You measure it in the number of people that otherwise would have killed themselves out of loneliness and had nowhere else to turn. Even if communal labor is not always as lucrative as profit-motivated labor, it is a beautiful thing to be a part of. It is intrinsically good.
In the 80's and 90's, the antique selling community also treated gay and transgender people treated people like human beings, but to say they are damn decent people is probably stretching it a bit.

Saying something can and does work is a fairly weak assertion. I don't know of any country which claims a communist system of government which allows free and open dissent, and I'm pretty sure they are all quite exclusionary.

If you are going to espouse an idea that has always resulted in undesirable consequences, you'll need to explain what changes or improvements will be made to avoid the bad stuff. Depending on the intrinsic good in people may not be sufficient.
Anarcho-communism is not proposed as a system of government, but it is proposed as a system for organizing production. You can engage in it with or without the permission of the government, and you can do it without the government's knowledge if you want to. You might even do other things, too! You might work at a regular accounting job as your day job, but you might put in an hour or so a day on a communal project that benefits everybody that is engaged in it. You might organize temporary teams, have occasional discussions about direction and vision, or even split off into separate projects, merge with others, or completely rethink what outcomes you are looking for.

You don't have to if you don't want to, but it gives me pleasure. I like the camaraderie and the warmth.

As far as government, I am really a run-of-the mill, garden variety Democrat.
I speak as a working class person who has always lived off the proceeds of his labor.

What you have described is an after school club for adults who don't have to worry about making their rent.
From between 8 o'clock until 4 o'clock, I work a steady job. I enjoy my job, being a very physical and energetic kind of person.

However, let us do some math:

1) I sleep about 6 hours a night, sometimes less.
2) I have literally never owned a television.
3) I have literally never owned a gaming system, and I have not even played on somebody else's gaming system in 16 years.
4) While I love books, I mostly listen to audiobooks at work. Most of my coworkers listen to music.
5) I am non-religious.
6) I do not have any offspring.
7) No sports, and I would not even know where to buy a football racket.
8) No partying.
9) Nope, don't go out to nightclubs.
10) My cooking amounts to boiling some cheap spaghetti and pouring in some cheap spaghetti sauce.

That's a lot of free time. I like to use it to try to make my life better. Sure, if I wanted to, I could work a second part-time job and make more money, but I expect more measurable improvement in my quality of life based on how I am spending my time, now.

*swishes her tail playfully*

You are not going to find fault with it. The way I choose to live is profoundly reasonable.
I'll concede everything you say as true except the final statement and noting there is no math in your list.

As I said above, your scheme is fine for people who have expendable time and income. Just as watery tarts distributing swords is no basis for a system of government, your anarcho communism is not a basis for a productive economy.

This weekend, I'll be donating my labor at a Habitat for Humanity project where it's likely I'll be teaching accountants to install interior doors, an excellent example of an after school club for adults.

*puffs cigar smoke which drifts above my head.*
 
Instead, it a creative commons sort of community where people might create stuff for many different reasons, including just because they are bored or because they found a solution that worked for them and wanted to share and share alike. It is a highly libertarian concept.

Why can’t you do that now? Doesn’t this happen already?
I could start citing Corey Doctorow's rants on DRM squeezing out everybody, but that was not the point of this particular thread. I might talk about that when I have gotten something meta to the subject out of my system. After that, I would be glad to give you a Corey Doctorow rant.

I am tired of the offensive stereotype of communists as authoritarian Marxists, and I am tired of told I am talking nonsense and trolling people when it turns out I am not an authoritarian Marxist in spite of identifying as a communist. We are not all authoritarian, and whether most people know it or not, it is possible for communism and capitalism to exist as part of the same economy. Just like Richard Stallman, I like both! I am not going to choose because both of them are excellent ideas for different reasons.

If somebody is going to demonize communists, then I am going to speak up and say something.

Communism is not something that it's legitimate to demonize people over. You probably have communism on your phone. That's what Android is. It's based on open source, and the very idea of open source exists because of a man named Richard Stallman. Your phone's software exists partly because of a man that supported communism but who also supported capitalism, which is why somebody was able to put a comfortable interface on the software and put it on a device that you were willing to give them money for. You are carrying communism in your pocket.

Not all communism is exclusionary. In spite of being a communist, my positions on most policy issues are actually normal for a Democrat. I mean I have a nephew that has cystic fibrosis, so I am no foe of the welfare state that currently helps keep him alive. Even so, I really have non-extreme, non-scary views. Most of my views are really mainstream.

Communism is valid as a part of a balanced, complex, moderate, intellectually inclusive political philosophy. It really should not be used as a political punching-bag. It is wrong to take people on bad faith over it.

Nearly the only people that treated gay and transgender people like human beings, in the 1980's and 1990's, were people in the open source community. The reason they did so was that they were damn decent people. Communal labor brings out something noble in people. You cannot measure it in dollar signs. You measure it in the number of people that otherwise would have killed themselves out of loneliness and had nowhere else to turn. Even if communal labor is not always as lucrative as profit-motivated labor, it is a beautiful thing to be a part of. It is intrinsically good.
In the 80's and 90's, the antique selling community also treated gay and transgender people treated people like human beings, but to say they are damn decent people is probably stretching it a bit.

Saying something can and does work is a fairly weak assertion. I don't know of any country which claims a communist system of government which allows free and open dissent, and I'm pretty sure they are all quite exclusionary.

If you are going to espouse an idea that has always resulted in undesirable consequences, you'll need to explain what changes or improvements will be made to avoid the bad stuff. Depending on the intrinsic good in people may not be sufficient.
Anarcho-communism is not proposed as a system of government, but it is proposed as a system for organizing production. You can engage in it with or without the permission of the government, and you can do it without the government's knowledge if you want to. You might even do other things, too! You might work at a regular accounting job as your day job, but you might put in an hour or so a day on a communal project that benefits everybody that is engaged in it. You might organize temporary teams, have occasional discussions about direction and vision, or even split off into separate projects, merge with others, or completely rethink what outcomes you are looking for.

You don't have to if you don't want to, but it gives me pleasure. I like the camaraderie and the warmth.

As far as government, I am really a run-of-the mill, garden variety Democrat.
I speak as a working class person who has always lived off the proceeds of his labor.

What you have described is an after school club for adults who don't have to worry about making their rent.
From between 8 o'clock until 4 o'clock, I work a steady job. I enjoy my job, being a very physical and energetic kind of person.

However, let us do some math:

1) I sleep about 6 hours a night, sometimes less.
2) I have literally never owned a television.
3) I have literally never owned a gaming system, and I have not even played on somebody else's gaming system in 16 years.
4) While I love books, I mostly listen to audiobooks at work. Most of my coworkers listen to music.
5) I am non-religious.
6) I do not have any offspring.
7) No sports, and I would not even know where to buy a football racket.
8) No partying.
9) Nope, don't go out to nightclubs.
10) My cooking amounts to boiling some cheap spaghetti and pouring in some cheap spaghetti sauce.

That's a lot of free time. I like to use it to try to make my life better. Sure, if I wanted to, I could work a second part-time job and make more money, but I expect more measurable improvement in my quality of life based on how I am spending my time, now.

*swishes her tail playfully*

You are not going to find fault with it. The way I choose to live is profoundly reasonable.
I'll concede everything you say as true except the final statement and noting there is no math in your list.

As I said above, your scheme is fine for people who have expendable time and income. Just as watery tarts distributing swords is no basis for a system of government, your anarcho communism is not a basis for a productive economy.

This weekend, I'll be donating my labor at a Habitat for Humanity project where it's likely I'll be teaching accountants to install interior doors, an excellent example of an after school club for adults.

*puffs cigar smoke which drifts above my head.*
I LOVE Habitat for Humanity! We have a local city farm in Raleigh, too. A friend of mine is really involved in local urban farming related projects, and it's supposed to be loads of fun.

You are probably carrying around anarcho-communism in your pocket, though. iPhones are for people that have ample expendable income. Most other phones in the world are Android phones, which are based on open source.

People really participate in open source in about the same spirit that you participate in Habitat for Humanity. They like being part of a team, and they like the culture that surrounds it. They do it for free because it is actually fun, and they like working with positive people.

It is also possible to take the product of open source labor and sell it for a profit. In fact, Richard Stallman openly stated that his vision was a mixture of anarchism, communism, and capitalism, all of it together.

I am with Stallman. It is a fallacy to say that we should have to choose between two great ways to take part in making our lives and the world around us better. The idea that we should have to stop liking one just because we like the other is actually crazy.

*blows a few smoke-rings of her own*

I think that people can do amazing things if they are just given the idea that they can.
 
For some reason, the Missing Person's song "Words" has popped into my head...

GNAC - GNAC's Not Anarcho-Communist

*no smoke, it bothers the oxygen intake thru the skin*
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
 
just curious, but what would a Soviet style command economy have to deliver for it to "work"?
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
The problem is that no-one freely chooses communism because it leads to misery. People want what communism can't deliver: freedom, ability to buy big screen TVs, travel, Rvs, nice retirement, 401ks, and etc. So, the only way to implement it is with a brutal government to impose it on the community. People won't freely choose an economic system that doesn't work.
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
The problem is that no-one freely chooses communism because it leads to misery. People want what communism can't deliver: freedom, ability to buy big screen TVs, travel, Rvs, nice retirement, 401ks, and etc. So, the only way to implement it is with a brutal government to impose it on the community. People won't freely choose an economic system that doesn't work.
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
The problem is that no-one freely chooses communism because it leads to misery. People want what communism can't deliver: freedom, ability to buy big screen TVs, travel, Rvs, nice retirement, 401ks, and etc. So, the only way to implement it is with a brutal government to impose it on the community. People won't freely choose an economic system that doesn't work.
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.
Well, we can argue about communism, socialism and capitalism and which works best all day. But I'm sure you're agree with me, that no system or combination of systems will ever had all "elements" in alignment. In any system, there will be "parasitic elements (by the way I don't agree that those who disagree with the system are parasites)". And that's why we'll always need a government to uphold the system; enforce laws; and etc. There will never be a viable anarchist system.
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
The problem is that no-one freely chooses communism because it leads to misery. People want what communism can't deliver: freedom, ability to buy big screen TVs, travel, Rvs, nice retirement, 401ks, and etc. So, the only way to implement it is with a brutal government to impose it on the community. People won't freely choose an economic system that doesn't work.
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.
Well, we can argue about communism, socialism and capitalism and which works best all day. But I'm sure you're agree with me, that no system or combination of systems will ever had all "elements" in alignment. In any system, there will be "parasitic elements (by the way I don't agree that those who disagree with the system are parasites)". And that's why we'll always need a government to uphold the system; enforce laws; and etc. There will never be a viable anarchist system.
I don't believe that those who "disagree with the system" are parasitic. I pointed out exactly what element of parasitism I am discussing: people in positions of power embezzling.

Your claim that there will never be A anarchist system are misfounded and bordering on bad faith. You see how I handle bad faith. Anarchy can never run the show, but it can be part of how the show runs. Subsystems of anarchic nature exist all over everywhere.

It is not an argument over "which" works. It is an argument of "what elements of which are most useful in which contexts?"

It is absolutely possible to assemble a mixture of elements which streamlines our civilization better towards "greater individual power-to" with "less individual power-over".

It's just ony uncertain whether the changes that need to be made can be given primacy of the established order, as the change that needs to be made is to the concept of "ownership".
 
is it really that communism doesnt work or didnt work or is it a matter of it not working the way some folks expect an economic system to work.?
It would be erroneous to turn any particular method of doing things into a Maslow's hammer.

We have the option of using part of our free time to try to make our life better. For some of us, this is more fun and more intrinsically rewarding than pursuits like playing a video game, watching television, and so on. Communal labor actually feels good to do. There is a sense of camaraderie that people can derive from working together to create something or to solve a problem as a team.

These sorts of things happen naturally, and words like "anarchism" and "anarcho-communism" are really just post-facto descriptions for people's normal behavior. It is nothing contrived. It is probably nothing you have not already done, at some point in your life.

Regardless, I believe that attempts to create utopian "communist" states have failed simply because they created a state monopoly. I do not like monopolies at all, state monopolies or otherwise.
The problem is that no-one freely chooses communism because it leads to misery. People want what communism can't deliver: freedom, ability to buy big screen TVs, travel, Rvs, nice retirement, 401ks, and etc. So, the only way to implement it is with a brutal government to impose it on the community. People won't freely choose an economic system that doesn't work.
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.
Well, we can argue about communism, socialism and capitalism and which works best all day. But I'm sure you're agree with me, that no system or combination of systems will ever had all "elements" in alignment. In any system, there will be "parasitic elements (by the way I don't agree that those who disagree with the system are parasites)". And that's why we'll always need a government to uphold the system; enforce laws; and etc. There will never be a viable anarchist system.
I don't believe that those who "disagree with the system" are parasitic. I pointed out exactly what element of parasitism I am discussing: people in positions of power embezzling.

Your claim that there will never be A anarchist system are misfounded and bordering on bad faith. You see how I handle bad faith. Anarchy can never run the show, but it can be part of how the show runs. Subsystems of anarchic nature exist all over everywhere.

It is not an argument over "which" works. It is an argument of "what elements of which are most useful in which contexts?"

It is absolutely possible to assemble a mixture of elements which streamlines our civilization better towards "greater individual power-to" with "less individual power-over".

It's just ony uncertain whether the changes that need to be made can be given primacy of the established order, as the change that needs to be made is to the concept of "ownership".
That hasn't been my experience. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Please give me some examples of "subsystems of anarchic nature". I haven't experienced it all. I see the opposite. In every situation that I see, there always need to be someone who organizes and leads the effort. Systems need leaders. I get asked to join volunteer boards all time. In every situation, a leader gets appointed in order to get work done. I literally served on the simplest board one time: it was created to help protect kids at crosswalks and at bus crossing stops. A great group of professionals. We all wanted to help. We all worked 80 hours a week. No one wanted to be the leader. We tried to allow the group to manage itself. After 5 meetings - nothing was done! Finally someone took over, and we got the work done. That's just how it works. Even the smallest of groups requires a leader or someone to direct resources and keep the group on task. But a country is vastly more complex. I'm willing to listen to dissent, but I'll repeat my assertion: no successful country will ever exist that is a viable anarchy.
 
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.

And how do you plan to have a control system without it being able to be misused??

Fundamentally, every example of working communism has involved voluntary agreement by a subset of people and fairly small groups.
 
Communism can and does deliver, to the extent that those who truly believe in it manage to filter out parasitic elements from control positions.

The problem is that humans are notorious for having hidden parasitic opportunistic behaviors. There's just too much impulse, sitting at the edge of the community resource pool, to look on that vast pool and say "Ah! I can be comfortable for a while!". Or they say "well, of all the people I know, I know my family first" and then roles that require qualification and "the best the community has", suddenly the criterion gets relaxed to "my family can fill these roles" and the weakening of our filters we commit to for people we like takes over and even more loose behavior takes hold.

Suddenly what was supposed to be a committed and responsible steward of our resources then devolves towards cronyism. The whole thing falls apart at that point.

What is required is some manner of ownership wherein people are expected to exert leverage, and when they do, that exertion creates a cost against their ownership or organizational leverage. The issue being that when someone exercises a leverage we do not respond by moving their fulcrum, or even accept that this ought have a cost.

And how do you plan to have a control system without it being able to be misused??

Fundamentally, every example of working communism has involved voluntary agreement by a subset of people and fairly small groups.
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.
But in an anarchy, who would enforce any law? A law unenforced would simply be ignored over time.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.
But in an anarchy, who would enforce any law? A law unenforced would simply be ignored over time.
I'm not talking strict classic anarchy, or even really anarchic at all. That's Sigma's thing.

if you insist that I must be talking about something anarchic, It's a form of anarchic communism where no one central group takes or owns, but rather each holding over time has it's control transferred to the exact people who, in a world with a more reasonable form of ownership, would already own it. As to central control, it's certainly more democratic-anarchic than the current concept of ownership.

It's a different paradigm for what in this system is "anarchic" and "communistic", I guess if you insist that I must be and support directly something that is not.

The community of beneficiaries for this communism is "the people who do work", and if this creates a hard division between "the people who do work" and "everyone else", is that not already the point of capitalism? To goad productivity through competition against starvation and the elements? What better way than to make workers stakeholders, and what better condition to place that stale upon than those who currently "own" applying leverage so as to own more?

Perhaps you approve of asymmetrical leverage behaviors; I do not. They are at the heart of the problems that will probably prove fatal to our species. When leverage is had and exercised for personal gain, it is a currency that must be considered spent so as to watch it dissipate.

Currently, there is no education or even truth to the idea that "leveraging people has a cost". The current system in fact seems designed to hide the fact that it is leveraging "I own it" to have more.

I mean it makes sense. It's definitely a functional power-grab to implement and maintain rules that cement you at the top. And so these rules have been maintained since. It also worked just fine when there was no way for one person or one tribe to control everything. At a certain critical point in the size and power scale of human societies, in fact, such a complexity as "exertion of social leverage exerts loss of it via worker population" is hard to manage anyway.

Certain societies absolutely could; the "rocks are money and are exchanged in Satoshi by ledger" could absolutely host such a system.

Fundamentally, stocks are currencies. Pretend all you want that they are anything else but they are certificates of 'value' associated with an asset that may be traded for that specific value, the value in this case being an abstract measure of "power over the work of others".

Essentially this says "all monies are to be taxed when spent or leveraged, with the beneficiary of that tax being exactly the population which has built the taxable asset's value".

In a national sense, our national "stocks" are dollars. They push all the other stuff through a second layer of abstraction to denature the stocks from their current ownership pools. And tax is this concept organized in a general way to general benefits and common infrastructural concerns.

But really, we miss a whole layer wherein on the corporate level, people are being denied their power of taxation as a community, and that the borders to that community of power transfer exist entirely and completely around the community of people who contribute to that specific work: just as we all pay taxes to have roads and police, each shareholder ought pay these "taxes" to the workers build an infrastructure of metastatic ownership and true investment in work.

At the beginning of such a system, it would be necessary to experiment with the states first to find what percentage effectively decays ownership while allowing just enough selfish "carrot" to dangle in front of "whoever happens to have shares" so as to still make money through their buying and selling but only in a way that actually raises all ships. Later, however, it would be necessary to make the rules uniform federally, as this is more of a "global" change which operates best when consistently applied.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.

Thus no company ever grows. Nor do new companies come into existence. Nor do workers change jobs.

Sounds rather dystopian to me.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.

Thus no company ever grows. Nor do new companies come into existence. Nor do workers change jobs.

Sounds rather dystopian to me.
No, companies grow, but under the control and direction of the workers, over time, rather than the people who merely got the thing started. They are guaranteed value in their sale and leverage! Stocks are supposed to gain between 5 and 10%. This means that owning company stocks for the purpose of flipping (speculation) dies, but speculation is bullshit anyway, it adds NOTHING.

It creates an effective tax on stock collateralization, and on sale, the beneficiaries of which are the people who gave that stock any actual material backing.

A worker gets his equal share of stocks in a job they are in, while they are in that job, and it's not like they would lose them for quitting. They would lose them as those stocks produced VALUE for them, or leverage, or any other material assets.

I join BigCorp as a janitor. Over year while I work, 1000 stocks of BigCorp changed hands or were operated on. On average there have been 9 other people working during this period. This means I have roughly 1 stock. So do the other 9 folks.

I quit. I keep my share because I wish to have a vote on the BigCorp board. Every year I show up, and lose 1% or whatever of my share. Every year I take dividends... And lose another percent of it. Eventually, it's mostly gone, or at least insignificant. It's gone back to the workers I stopped working with.

Or perhaps I just sell it to the union, or on the market, and I just get some quick money.

Eventually, this will create more and more worker seats on the board as they use their control and shares to leverage value out of the company.
 
Or it requires a software and operational change wherein some percentage of every transaction of stock, sale OR collateralization, goes to an automatic union formed of the employees.

They then come to gain position on the board.

It's a soft form of movement towards a corporate form of Communism.

The protection from "misuse" is that ultimately, it is not a thing that is controlled by committee and allotment of whatever. It's a system which redirects ownership away from "that which I have now is mine forever until I see fit" to "that which I have now, I keep by contributing to, and maintaining."

There is little to abuse in this. In fact, it corrects a great and ancient abuse.

This sort of option has been presented before--and it suffers the problem of buy-in. Either a new worker brings assets equal to the share of the company they will be getting (and where do they get that money??) or they don't (and it's almost certainly not in the worker's interest to hire anyone else as that's giving away their assets.)
The asset the worker brings is their work, time, and effort.

Either the company needs them to be what the company is, or the company does not so need them. If the law is simply that 100% of work in the US yields an equal share of stock transfer dies, there is nothing to buy.

Either they need a worker to do the work, to which they yield their leverage as to themselves when they exert it... or they do not.

There is nothing to buy in. A financial law gets passed, and then this thing starts happening, as a function of all stock trades and collateralization on the market.

Of course, it won't happen. The world is too broken at this point, and it is now too hard to just tear down those who are too powerful to ever slip their grasp.

Thus no company ever grows. Nor do new companies come into existence. Nor do workers change jobs.

Sounds rather dystopian to me.
No, companies grow, but under the control and direction of the workers, over time, rather than the people who merely got the thing started. They are guaranteed value in their sale and leverage! Stocks are supposed to gain between 5 and 10%. This means that owning company stocks for the purpose of flipping (speculation) dies, but speculation is bullshit anyway, it adds NOTHING.

It creates an effective tax on stock collateralization, and on sale, the beneficiaries of which are the people who gave that stock any actual material backing.

A worker gets his equal share of stocks in a job they are in, while they are in that job, and it's not like they would lose them for quitting. They would lose them as those stocks produced VALUE for them, or leverage, or any other material assets.

I join BigCorp as a janitor. Over year while I work, 1000 stocks of BigCorp changed hands or were operated on. On average there have been 9 other people working during this period. This means I have roughly 1 stock. So do the other 9 folks.

I quit. I keep my share because I wish to have a vote on the BigCorp board. Every year I show up, and lose 1% or whatever of my share. Every year I take dividends... And lose another percent of it. Eventually, it's mostly gone, or at least insignificant. It's gone back to the workers I stopped working with.

Or perhaps I just sell it to the union, or on the market, and I just get some quick money.

Eventually, this will create more and more worker seats on the board as they use their control and shares to leverage value out of the company.
Why would an entrepreneur want to start a company in this type of system? You want workers to be able to control their labor. Well, when I start a company (I've started 3), I want the ability to control my labor, my capital, and my time. Worker controlled companies have their place. My wife worked for a very successful one (large retail company). But they won't work as well in all companies. They obviously won't attract much investor capital. And a growing company constantly needs capital to grow.
 
Back
Top Bottom