Let's Play Modern World Jeopardy*

[Bronzeage]

*Absolutely true.

I'll take "Things I would not have believed 20 years ago," for $80, Alex.
And the answer is $260.55.
What is, "how much will it cost to replace the headlamp bulb on my 2013 Buick?"
Hmmmmmm. Judges, can we accept that? (ding dong)
Okay, the complete answer is "low beam headlamp bulb, but we can accept that.

For the past 50 years or so, the useful life of an automobile was approximately 20 years. After two decades, it gets more difficult to find parts and repairs become more expensive. The surviving cars slip out of the practical transportation market and into the collectible and antique world. Those not worth saving, become scrap metal.

In the 21st, this may change from twenty years to ten, or possibly five. One can ask any tech guru whether or not to repair or replace a five year old computer and expect the same answer. What does one do when their car contains four or five computers and a large number of smaller electronic controls? Any of these little brain boxes can cost a grand or more, if they can be found, and without one, things like the headlights or the windows no longer operate.

This kind of thing comes with a commensurate increase in price. This morning I walked past a GMC Denali which still had the dealer sticker on the window. The list price was a hair over $72K. The last time I spent that much money on something, I got a kitchen and a carport big enough to park two Denalis. Of course, this includes a lot of stuff that is not absolutely necessary for the driving experience, but manufacturers discovered quite some time ago, there's no real market for "stripped down" models. This is especially true when the sales volume of low end models is so low, it actually increases the per unit cost to build one. More profit can be made by adding options and selling more at a slightly higher price.

What does all this mean for the future of our car culture? Will there no longer be a true "used" car market? According to smart guys who give advice, transportation should not exceed more than 20% of a household's monthly budget. This includes the car note, insurance, fuel, and maintenance.

This means our Denali is going to cost about $1600 a month to operate(4.5% loan), which translates into a household income of about $100K. In my state, the medium income is under $45K, so I'm not sure who is going to buy the $72K Denali.

 

[Valjean]

I wouldn't be surprised if a market for pre-computer vehicles developed in the near future, along with machine shops specializing in parts fabrication.
If the Cubans can keep 60 year old cars running we should me able to maintain 1980s models for a while.

 

[Bronzeage]

I wouldn't be surprised if a market for pre-computer vehicles developed in the near future, along with machine shops specializing in parts fabrication.
If the Cubans can keep 60 year old cars running we should me able to maintain 1980s models for a while.

The pre-transistor electronics age for cars is 1974 and earlier. Engines built before 1972 do not last long when run on unleaded fuel, but it is possible to retro fit them for modern gasoline.

Computer controlled engines became widespread in US cars in 1981. By 1985, it was universal, with the only non-fuel injected car for sale(as far as I am aware) was the Yugo. Look around and see how many 80's vintage cars are on the road today. Things like digital display instrument panels and AC controls are very difficult to find for a ten year old car, and nearly impossible for a 30 year old car.

Keeping a geriatric automobile in daily use is not for the faint of heart.

 

[steve_bnk]

The question is how may hours you had to work to replace the bub then and now.

In the early 1980s a fully loaded color IBM brand PC cost around $5000. Back then $10 an hour was a good wage. 500 hours. Today at the low wage of $10 an hour 50 – 100 hours.

Cars today are crazy. You can not fix your own cars.

Part of it is the cost to mechanically retool for new cars. Computer design is cheap in comparison.

The cost dealers charge for electronics modules is an utter rip off. They are cheap to manufacture.

If you are old enough to remember, a radio in a new car was often optional, and you paid a lot for a factory installed radio.

Part of it is economy of scale. A car model might only sell a few hundred thousand a year. And only be in production a few years. And they might change the lights a little to differentiate each year.

As to buying a new PC, if the one you have meets your needs there is no reason to toss it..

 

[Bronzeage]

The question is how may hours you had to work to replace the bub then and now.

In the early 1980s a fully loaded color IBM brand PC cost around $5000. Back then $10 an hour was a good wage. 500 hours. Today at the low wage of $10 an hour 50 – 100 hours.

Cars today are crazy. You can not fix your own cars.

Part of it is the cost to mechanically retool for new cars. Computer design is cheap in comparison.

The cost dealers charge for electronics modules is an utter rip off. They are cheap to manufacture.

If you are old enough to remember, a radio in a new car was often optional, and you paid a lot for a factory installed radio.

Part of it is economy of scale. A car model might only sell a few hundred thousand a year. And only be in production a few years. And they might change the lights a little to differentiate each year.

As to buying a new PC, if the one you have meets your needs there is no reason to toss it..

Would you replace the motherboard on five year old PC? What about the hard drive?

The bulb was replaced at an hourly rate of $99.66, which comes out to $55, and the rest is for the bulb.

 

[steve_bnk]

The question is how may hours you had to work to replace the bub then and now.

In the early 1980s a fully loaded color IBM brand PC cost around $5000. Back then $10 an hour was a good wage. 500 hours. Today at the low wage of $10 an hour 50 – 100 hours.

Cars today are crazy. You can not fix your own cars.

Part of it is the cost to mechanically retool for new cars. Computer design is cheap in comparison.

The cost dealers charge for electronics modules is an utter rip off. They are cheap to manufacture.

If you are old enough to remember, a radio in a new car was often optional, and you paid a lot for a factory installed radio.

Part of it is economy of scale. A car model might only sell a few hundred thousand a year. And only be in production a few years. And they might change the lights a little to differentiate each year.

As to buying a new PC, if the one you have meets your needs there is no reason to toss it..

Would you replace the motherboard on five year old PC? What about the hard drive?

The bulb was replaced at an hourly rate of $99.66, which comes out to $55, and the rest is for the bulb.

R
Replace because they are bad, to improve performance, or what?

If it is bad and a major brand like hp they may have a send in your non working pc and get a refurbished model back program.

If you do the work yourself you can change the mb and disk. If your pc is working make a Windows restore image to a USB drive and a recovery cd from the control panel.

You can do a complete restore on the new disk including OS.

Depending on what you want to pay for a new system it can be a lot cheaper.

Ycan buy two mb and disk drives and store them as backup.

 

[beero1000]

The question is how may hours you had to work to replace the bub then and now.

In the early 1980s a fully loaded color IBM brand PC cost around $5000. Back then $10 an hour was a good wage. 500 hours. Today at the low wage of $10 an hour 50 – 100 hours.

Cars today are crazy. You can not fix your own cars.

Part of it is the cost to mechanically retool for new cars. Computer design is cheap in comparison.

The cost dealers charge for electronics modules is an utter rip off. They are cheap to manufacture.

If you are old enough to remember, a radio in a new car was often optional, and you paid a lot for a factory installed radio.

Part of it is economy of scale. A car model might only sell a few hundred thousand a year. And only be in production a few years. And they might change the lights a little to differentiate each year.

As to buying a new PC, if the one you have meets your needs there is no reason to toss it..

Would you replace the motherboard on five year old PC? What about the hard drive?

The bulb was replaced at an hourly rate of $99.66, which comes out to $55, and the rest is for the bulb.

Unless you meant the entire headlight assembly, and not just the bulb, I think you've been had.

Of course, if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing, it still isn't that hard to fix minor issues in a modern car by yourself. I've Macgyvered solutions myself using a paper clip. Problems show up when you need specialized equipment just to read the error code to even figure out what the issue is.

 

[Bronzeage]

Would you replace the motherboard on five year old PC? What about the hard drive?

The bulb was replaced at an hourly rate of $99.66, which comes out to $55, and the rest is for the bulb.

Unless you meant the entire headlight assembly, and not just the bulb, I think you've been had.

Of course, if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing, it still isn't that hard to fix minor issues in a modern car by yourself. I've Macgyvered solutions myself using a paper clip. Problems show up when you need specialized equipment just to read the error code to even figure out what the issue is.

No, I've not been had. That is what General Motors reimburses a dealership service department when they replace a defective bulb under the bumper to bumper warranty(50,000 miles, or 60 months).

I do agree with you about the "if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing," thing, but that applies to just about anything. For the past 70 years or so, the best selling automotive part in the US, has been the thermostat. There are two reasons for this. First, overheating problems are common, but much more important, everyone has heard of a thermostat and they are fairly cheap.

What do you think is wrong?
Maybe it's the thermostat.
How much is that?
Probably $10.
Okay, let's change it.

This leads to a strange paradox of diagnostics. A professional may look at a problem and realize there are 27 possible reasons, without doing more examination. An amateur may know only three. If both of them have to make a guess, and if the correct answer is one of the three, the amateur has a one in three chance of being right, while the pro is stuck with one in twenty seven.

 

[Deepak]

Unless you meant the entire headlight assembly, and not just the bulb, I think you've been had.

Of course, if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing, it still isn't that hard to fix minor issues in a modern car by yourself. I've Macgyvered solutions myself using a paper clip. Problems show up when you need specialized equipment just to read the error code to even figure out what the issue is.

No, I've not been had. That is what General Motors reimburses a dealership service department when they replace a defective bulb under the bumper to bumper warranty(50,000 miles, or 60 months).

I do agree with you about the "if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing," thing, but that applies to just about anything. For the past 70 years or so, the best selling automotive part in the US, has been the thermostat. There are two reasons for this. First, overheating problems are common, but much more important, everyone has heard of a thermostat and they are fairly cheap.

What do you think is wrong?
Maybe it's the thermostat.
How much is that?
Probably $10.
Okay, let's change it.

This leads to a strange paradox of diagnostics. A professional may look at a problem and realize there are 27 possible reasons, without doing more examination. An amateur may know only three. If both of them have to make a guess, and if the correct answer is one of the three, the amateur has a one in three chance of being right, while the pro is stuck with one in twenty seven.

The other aspect of computerized cars is better diagnostic capabilities. I can't recall ever having to go in for a repair, then bring the car in again because the computer diagnosed fix did not resolve the problem. Without the brand specific machine though the scales are actually tilted against the amateur since the best they can do is get an OBD reading done at a store like Autozone - where the generic code reader might actually misdiagnose the issue.

 

[Bronzeage]

No, I've not been had. That is what General Motors reimburses a dealership service department when they replace a defective bulb under the bumper to bumper warranty(50,000 miles, or 60 months).

I do agree with you about the "if you know what the problem is and you know what you're doing," thing, but that applies to just about anything. For the past 70 years or so, the best selling automotive part in the US, has been the thermostat. There are two reasons for this. First, overheating problems are common, but much more important, everyone has heard of a thermostat and they are fairly cheap.

What do you think is wrong?
Maybe it's the thermostat.
How much is that?
Probably $10.
Okay, let's change it.

This leads to a strange paradox of diagnostics. A professional may look at a problem and realize there are 27 possible reasons, without doing more examination. An amateur may know only three. If both of them have to make a guess, and if the correct answer is one of the three, the amateur has a one in three chance of being right, while the pro is stuck with one in twenty seven.

The other aspect of computerized cars is better diagnostic capabilities. I can't recall ever having to go in for a repair, then bring the car in again because the computer diagnosed fix did not resolve the problem. Without the brand specific machine though the scales are actually tilted against the amateur since the best they can do is get an OBD reading done at a store like Autozone - where the generic code reader might actually misdiagnose the issue.

One of my favorite phone calls I used to take back in the early days of computer controls, and I was always given this call, was "I have a code 42. What does that mean?"

My answer was always the same, "It means your EST bypass circuit is either open or shorted to ground."

"Ah, Okay. What part do I change?" I had to break the news, this particularly irritating code was not the result of some specific failure, but the result of three or four tiny variations, which sometimes lined up like the planets and caused havoc. There was no part to change. It was more the result of programming than anything else.

The number of codes which can be set has greatly increased since good old Code 42. One of my favorites is a particular misfire code which appears on the second drive cycle and turns one the amber MIL lamp(mal-function indicator lamp). The car seems to run just fine, but an analyzer sees a particular pattern of low misfire, and after seeing it twice, turns on the light. I have seen this particular code several times, and each time it was a particular V-6 engine that had just had the manifold gasket changed. This engine has different length push rods on intake and exhaust valves, which must be removed as part of the procedure. It's very easy to get them confused on reassembly.

The longer push rods bend immediately when the engine is started. The mechanic has to go back to work and replace them in the proper places. Everything seems fine, as he tests drives the car and parks. The light will come on when the customer is on their way home. The problem is, in addition to bending the push rod, there is also a very slight twist in the camshaft. Again, a peculiar thing. This engine has a steel camshaft, not cast iron. A cast iron shaft would resist twisting and suddenly break. Steel twists and doesn't spring back to its exact original shape. It's enough for the computer to measure a difference in the power output of each cylinder and turn on the light.

I welcomed computer engine data because it gave me more information about what was really happening inside the engine, but it was never a substitute for knowing what was going on inside the engine.

 

[thebeave]

I just bought a used Toyota Tacoma truck back in March. I'm getting a 420 code fairly frequently. Which could be a cat converter problem, among other possibilities. I seem to get the code more often when I buy cheap gas. When I went to Yosemite a few months ago, it went on several times. My friend and I would joke that the truck is telling us its time to light up a joint (420 is code for smoking pot for all you goody two shoes out there).

I installed a device called an Ultragauge that plugs into the OBD II connector. Gives me all kinds of valuable engine data, in addition to telling me what the code numbers are and enabling me to reset the check engine light. Great little device!

 

[Bronzeage]

I just bought a used Toyota Tacoma truck back in March. I'm getting a 420 code fairly frequently. Which could be a cat converter problem, among other possibilities. I seem to get the code more often when I buy cheap gas. When I went to Yosemite a few months ago, it went on several times. My friend and I would joke that the truck is telling us its time to light up a joint (420 is code for smoking pot for all you goody two shoes out there).

I installed a device called an Ultragauge that plugs into the OBD II connector. Gives me all kinds of valuable engine data, in addition to telling me what the code numbers are and enabling me to reset the check engine light. Great little device!

A failing catalytic converter is most likely. Any other cause would be related to a poor connection or bad ground in the o2 sensor circuit. A wire problem would set several other codes at the same time. They put an extra o2 sensor behind the converter and compare the fore and after o2 levels in the exhaust. The shifts in levels should be parallel, but much lower in the back. When the two sensor readings start to move toward each other, it's sign the catalyst element is breaking down.

 

[thebeave]

I just bought a used Toyota Tacoma truck back in March. I'm getting a 420 code fairly frequently. Which could be a cat converter problem, among other possibilities. I seem to get the code more often when I buy cheap gas. When I went to Yosemite a few months ago, it went on several times. My friend and I would joke that the truck is telling us its time to light up a joint (420 is code for smoking pot for all you goody two shoes out there).

I installed a device called an Ultragauge that plugs into the OBD II connector. Gives me all kinds of valuable engine data, in addition to telling me what the code numbers are and enabling me to reset the check engine light. Great little device!

A failing catalytic converter is most likely. Any other cause would be related to a poor connection or bad ground in the o2 sensor circuit. A wire problem would set several other codes at the same time. They put an extra o2 sensor behind the converter and compare the fore and after o2 levels in the exhaust. The shifts in levels should be parallel, but much lower in the back. When the two sensor readings start to move toward each other, it's sign the catalyst element is breaking down.

Thanks for the info. From what I've read a new OEM catalytic converter is going to be expensive (IIRC, around $1000 or so?) and many of the aftermarket CC don't last more than a year or two. Got any brand recommendations on an inexpensive CC that's long lasting? Also, some guys on a Tacoma forum said they dump Seafoam into their engine and that has solved the problem. Apparently, there is a port of some kind in the engine compartment where it can be poured?