Libertarian Party Goes Crazy

[Swammerdami]

We should avoid constructing "straw men" but sometimes there seems to be little choice.

Whatever the instruction or amusement value of these anecdotes, the gold standard obviously came with severe problems.
(1) Inflation could be caused by a major gold discovery anywhere in the world. (Britain's retail price index rose over 16% from 1852 to 1855. Was this caused by the '49er Rush in California?)
(2) The LACK of new gold discoveries could cause deflation. Does it seem good to leave an important economic parameter, the inflation/deflation rate, to the happenstance of mining discoveries?
(3) Changes to the ratio between silver and gold values would impact countries on a bimetallic standard. W.J. Bryan's famous "Cross of Gold" rants were less about coinage than that Bryan's farming constituents wanted inflation rather than the deflation Republican bankers were enjoying.
(4) Especially important with the economy growing much faster than the gold supply was simply the availability of gold to repay gold promises. IIRC, the Panic of 1893, perhaps the biggest U.S. financial crisis prior to the Great Depression, abated literally when a ship carrying gold from London (or Rotterdam?) was sighted in New York Harbor.

But let's not argue against a possible straw-manned return to the gold standard in this Libertarians are Crazy thread. Our resident expert has not yet chimed in with what he expects to replace the FedRes Benjamins we're used to.

@ Jason — Do you have an answer yet? Gold? Bitcoins? Beanie Babies? The brilliant Free Market will automatically and magically figure this out?

Money is quite convenient in a complex economy so with the Federal Reserve dismantled surely some other form of money will take its place. Have we still not heard from any Libertarian what that new money is likely to be?

Do we just dynamite the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing and the Federal Reserve branches and see what happens next?

 

[blastula]

The kind of thing that people are leaving the party over.

 

[blastula]

And this.

 

[lpetrich]

The kind of thing that people are leaving the party over.

Libertarians making excuses for ChiComs?

And this.

Sam Bankman-Fried as an evil Jew. But a favorite negative stereotype of Jews is that they are very determined to succeed in business, no matter what. Something that US libertarians normally consider very admirable.

From a response, another one showing SBF supporting Joe Biden supporting Volodymyr Zelensky supporting SBF.

 

[blastula]

Oh, I guess I didn't include the LP tweet which has been deleted.

 

[senor boogie woogie]

I call myself a "Conservative/Libertarian". When it comes to the government (of the USA, my nation), the government needs to be way way cut down to size. It wastes ungodly amounts of money (the deficit is over $30 TRILLION DOLLARS) and most of it is waste, or just "bread and circuses" for the masses. I would (and this is an LP view) bring home all the American troops for overseas and not involve the United States in any foreign entanglements unless it effects America directly. I know this is easier said than done since the World is so interconnected now. If I was President during this Ukraine War, I would stop any aid to Russia altogether and maybe suspend diplomatic relations. But troops? No way. Probably there would be no NATO, let Europe come together for their own defense.

Same with China, the billionaires and awful corporations with the agreement of the government of the United States basically gave away the store to China and now China is a powerful nation. I would have kept factories in the USA and put a heavy tariff on goods from China that can be made here. Most of this is because of China's horrible record concerning human rights. The way to weaken China is to no longer trade with them and letting them produce everything because the labor is cheap. This is why billionaires and corporations are disgusting. To save a few bucks, they will employ slave labor in a Communist nation.

Conservatism comes from the root word "conserve" which is to save. I would try to privatize everything that can be privatized. Education can be privatized, Let the people save money on the failing public schools and give them the money to send their child what suits them best. That is one example. Some things like the military and the prison system cannot be privatized and should not be, because this is an overall public interest. Same goes with the police.

Drugs? I support the legalization of Marijuana. Missouri legalized marijuana by vote last week (although it was a skewed vote with the city folks saying yes and the rural people saying no. Tax and sell marijuana to adults. My stupid home state of Tennessee wont ever do that. I dont think all drugs should be legal, heroin shouldnt be legal. But what is the answer to that? People do heroin, and heroin cannot be stopped. Prostitution should be legal. If someone wants to sell their body, it is their's to sell if they are willing to take the risk.

I have no problem with foreigners coming to the United States, but the foreigner has to be able to take care of themselves without welfare or handouts. The people from Latin America probably wont come here if they know that nothing awaits them here if they dont have money or skills to make it in America. Ironically many come here because their home nations are utterly dangerous and corrupt due to illegal drug traffic. As long as people do cocaine and heroin in the United States, the people will come. I have joked that I would love in El Salvador if the Salvadorians left. Tropical country, mountains, beaches. For whatever reason, Costa Rica and Panama have their act together, the people running away are running away from the drug violence in Honduras, Guatamala and El Salvador.

The so called "Covid" crisis. I am so angry about this "covid" nonsense since it began three years ago. Under my government, there would be no closings of anything. I would not mandate the people to wear a stuffy, disgusting face diaper, and wont confine them to their homes. Covid is a scam anyway, the way that Big Government controls people and a way for the elite billionaires to make money by destroying the middle class. This shit wont end and the government of California or part of it now is back to mandating face diapers to go outside and live a life. It is OK to say "Hell No!!" to this nonsense.

Shocking the stupid re-elected Democrats back to office since that party has totally shitted on the economy, energy

 

[crazyfingers]

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The Manhatten Institute is an old, very right winged think tank that was active in the days of Presiden Reagan, and was an enthusiatic supporter of Supply Side economics and other conservative economic policies since then. Brian Riedel is a chief economist with the Manhatten Institute. Riedel under the auspices of the Manhatten institute has recently published a study of Trump's 4 years of budget plans and economic policies. Google for it, it makes for sobering reading.

Trump's policies created $7.8 tri)ion in deficits. Big tax giveaways to the 1% and big companies. Trump inherited a good economy, thanks to Obama. Riedel states had Trump done nothing at all for 4 years, the U.S. would have cur $3 trillion off the national debt. The problem is not spending. It is massive tax cuts under the ancient illusion tax cuts pay for themselves.

I would like to remind us all President Clinton actually balanced the budget, Reagan and the Bushes did not. Obama fixed our economy that crashed under G.W. Bush and his GOP Senate and House.

Spare us Libertarian, GOP lectures on economics. We saw what happened in Louisiana and Kansas following the advice of Arthur Laffer.

No more starve the beast GOP, Libertarian dirty tricks. Google starve the beast for that evil idea.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Google youtube, katie porter, price gouging. Big pharmacy, big oil, big corporations. Katie Porter tells us why we have inflation and rising prices. Youtube has several Katie Porter videos that demonstrate this problem. Libertarians could not as far as I can possibly care any less about this. Nor the GOP.

 

[Swammerdami]

I do sincerely want to understand today's Libertarianism; so it's good to see Jason has a fellow Libertarian now. Perhaps you two should start your own thread, iron out your differences if any, and present a united front. Do you also want to abolish the Federal Reserve, senor boogie woogie?

I call myself a "Conservative/Libertarian". When it comes to the government (of the USA, my nation), the government needs to be way way cut down to size. It wastes ungodly amounts of money (the deficit is over $30 TRILLION DOLLARS) and most of it is waste, or just "bread and circuses" for the masses.

Depending on your accounting method much of that "waste" goes to Baby Boomers on SocSec like myself. I spend it on food, petrol, red-eye treatment, and entertainment — mostly entertainment — but try to help out by allotting 10 or 15% of my budget to "waste."

One big difference between SocSec and privately-managed retirement savings — in addition to the unusually tiny overhead of SocSec administration — is that when I die, my SocSec will be cut to zero, in acknowledgement of my reduced need for food and entertainment. This is unlike private savings which would go to my children. Feature or bug?

... I would have kept factories in the USA and put a heavy tariff on goods from China that can be made here. Most of this is because of China's horrible record concerning human rights. The way to weaken China is to no longer trade with them and letting them produce everything because the labor is cheap. This is why billionaires and corporations are disgusting. To save a few bucks, they will employ slave labor in a Communist nation.

So Americans shouldn't have the Liberty™ to buy goods from China? (Is that okay with you, Jason?) I'm also confused about your disgust for billionaires: Are you an Ayn Rand fan or not? Are you okay with the Libertarian Champion Charles Koch or is he disgusting too?

Conservatism comes from the root word "conserve" which is to save. I would try to privatize everything that can be privatized. Education can be privatized, Let the people save money on the failing public schools and give them the money to send their child what suits them best.

Where does that money come from? Maybe we have an area of agreement! (Now, public school money is largely local taxes with rather little federal help.)

But suppose my family is Muslim or atheist and the only nearby private schools are evangelical Christian? Will I be given extra money for transport or boarding? Or is it our fault for living in a Christian community?

I have no problem with foreigners coming to the United States, but the foreigner has to be able to take care of themselves without welfare or handouts. The people from Latin America probably wont come here if they know that nothing awaits them here if they dont have money or skills to make it in America.

MSM tells us that immigrants pay taxes but are often ineligible for welfare or handouts. Profit for the native-born! Or is this just more MSM fake news?

The so called "Covid" crisis. I am so angry about this "covid" nonsense since it began three years ago. Under my government, there would be no closings of anything. I would not mandate the people to wear a stuffy, disgusting face diaper, and wont confine them to their homes. Covid is a scam anyway, the way that Big Government controls people and a way for the elite billionaires to make money by destroying the middle class. This shit wont end and the government of California or part of it now is back to mandating face diapers to go outside and live a life. It is OK to say "Hell No!!" to this nonsense.

Shocking the stupid re-elected Democrats back to office since that party has totally shitted on the economy, energy

Okay. Again, it will be fun to see you and @Jason work out your consensus stances.

 

[senor boogie woogie]

Billionaires disgust me by how most of them made their money, off the backs of the poor working class that the Billionaires through their money and power keep poor and downtrodden. By beating back Unions, by fighting raises in pay (being forced to give raises by the government through the minimum wage). How billionaires are some of the biggest welfare queens there is, using the government and municipal districts to do their bidding by graft, payoffs and corruption.

I just dont want to spend anymore of my life "working" to make some billionaire another dime, with me working forty plus hours a week running down my life with stress and hassles while the billionaire sits on his yacht naked as a jaybird in Tahiti drinking a Mai-Tai getting blown by an island girl. I was looking at the Wikipedia page of a billionaire scumbag I used to work for. I worked in one of his hotels and the place was very strict, stupid and repressive and many of the workers were miserable and the supervisors mad. Wasting our youth so that this asshole can try to not pay his yacht fees in Newport Beach. Now he owns a marijuana company in Nevada. Yay, bastard. I think I just hate the human condition of people walking on others for them to get ahead. No pie for you, turn around so I can kick you in the ass and call the hounds.

Jeff Bezos is disgusting. Because of how his company treats his workers as machines who cant keep up, so much so that men urinate in bottles because they cannot get to a bathroom inside one of those ridiculous warehouses of shit. Bezos even has a directive that these employees, no matter how well they work, are fired and given severance after three years because after three years, the worker becomes lazy and compalant.

Amazon drivers dont even technically work for Amazon, even though the driver wears the clothes with the erect penis logo, and drive a truck with an erect penis logo and work against a clock while being constantly monitored by camera carrying boxes of shit with erect penis logos on them. These workers are "contractors". It saves the bastard money and keeps him away from liabilities. Not to mention the sore need for a Union in that shithole so the workers can be treated as humans and not machines to be tossed away, and the Bald Headed Bastard Bezos has a team of Union Busters at the ready if anyone makes any noise.

Unfortunately, Americans are fat and lazy and would rather sit on their fat asses giving this bastard their money rather than waddle out to their car and do their own shopping. I dont want to live in a World where are the stores are shuttered and I have no choice but buy from "The Bastard and the Erect Penis Express" and then wait at my door for my shit so that some crackhead doesnt steal it. Have we gotten that stupid as a people? Dont get me started on "Door Dash" where the lazy orders food from chain restaurants. One day the vast majority of us are going to weigh 900 pounds and will fart ourselves to death. Get off your phone and walk!

 

[scombrid]

I call myself a "Conservative/Libertarian".

. I would have kept factories in the USA and put a heavy tariff on goods from China that can be made here. Most of this is because of China's horrible record concerning human rights. The way to weaken China is to no longer trade with them and letting them produce everything because the labor is cheap. This is why billionaires and corporations are disgusting.

I fail to see how that position on corporations is a libertarian position.

 

[scombrid]

Billionaires disgust me by how most of them made their money, off the backs of the poor working class that the Billionaires through their money and power keep poor and downtrodden. By beating back Unions, by fighting raises in pay (being forced to give raises by the government through the minimum wage). How billionaires are some of the biggest welfare queens there is, using the government and municipal districts to do their bidding by graft, payoffs and corruption.

I just dont want to spend anymore of my life "working" to make some billionaire another dime, with me working forty plus hours a week running down my life with stress and hassles while the billionaire sits on his yacht naked as a jaybird in Tahiti drinking a Mai-Tai getting blown by an island girl. I was looking at the Wikipedia page of a billionaire scumbag I used to work for. I worked in one of his hotels and the place was very strict, stupid and repressive and many of the workers were miserable and the supervisors mad. Wasting our youth so that this asshole can try to not pay his yacht fees in Newport Beach. Now he owns a marijuana company in Nevada. Yay, bastard. I think I just hate the human condition of people walking on others for them to get ahead. No pie for you, turn around so I can kick you in the ass and call the hounds.

Jeff Bezos is disgusting. Because of how his company treats his workers as machines who cant keep up, so much so that men urinate in bottles because they cannot get to a bathroom inside one of those ridiculous warehouses of shit. Bezos even has a directive that these employees, no matter how well they work, are fired and given severance after three years because after three years, the worker becomes lazy and compalant.

Amazon drivers dont even technically work for Amazon, even though the driver wears the clothes with the erect penis logo, and drive a truck with an erect penis logo and work against a clock while being constantly monitored by camera carrying boxes of shit with erect penis logos on them. These workers are "contractors". It saves the bastard money and keeps him away from liabilities. Not to mention the sore need for a Union in that shithole so the workers can be treated as humans and not machines to be tossed away, and the Bald Headed Bastard Bezos has a team of Union Busters at the ready if anyone makes any noise.

Unfortunately, Americans are fat and lazy and would rather sit on their fat asses giving this bastard their money rather than waddle out to their car and do their own shopping. I dont want to live in a World where are the stores are shuttered and I have no choice but buy from "The Bastard and the Erect Penis Express" and then wait at my door for my shit so that some crackhead doesnt steal it. Have we gotten that stupid as a people? Dont get me started on "Door Dash" where the lazy orders food from chain restaurants. One day the vast majority of us are going to weigh 900 pounds and will fart ourselves to death. Get off your phone and walk!

How does a libertarian propose to fix this billionaire problem as you describe here? How does the Trump/Ryan/McConnell tax giveaway (in the name of libertarian style supply side economics, letting the super rich have more of their money available to invest) address this problem? I see pro-union noise but I fail to see how anything conservative or libertarian in the US is pro-union. You are just supposed to take your labor to a higher bidder if you don't like the deal your employer is giving you. Or is the government supposed to step in and force some kind of floor in the market or is collective bargaining something that is good as opposed to the traditional conservolibertarian view on labor?

 

[Patooka]

How does a libertarian propose to fix this billionaire problem as you describe here?

Didn't you read the entire post? Walking fixes everything apparently.

 

[scombrid]

Smells of old man yells at cloud. But it is the pulse. The libertarian amounts to "you can't tell me what to do!" because they want to smoke pot or drive fast or drive drunk. But then they want to regulate business in a way that is quite antithetical to libertarian or even classic liberal capital philosophy. What it boils to is that they are generally discontent, fearful, and think that The Powers That Be have taken everything from them to give to the undesiring. Strange thing is, many of them decry the billionaire class but don't see the problem with the Trump/McConnell/Ryan tax give away or all of Trumps industry shill cabinet picks. They think AOC is part of the plot to get them.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Let us discuss crony capitalism a bit. Companies have boards of directors. Some people populating such boards are rather friendly to the CEOs et al. Rubber stamping huge CEO salaries and bonuses. Short term policies such as off shoring jobs. Sitting on a board like this can be quite lucrative. Big money for a few days work a year rubber stamping such things. Such people have reputations for being complacent and not challenging robber baron policies. They thus get invited to sit on numerous such boards. If you are not familiar with this phenomena, which has been a problem for decades, you do not have any understanding of how we got to this point of extreme wealth inequalty in modern day America. The cant that the invisible hand gurantees all good things if government would just get out of the way is Libertarian bull doo doo. The invisible hand gets us oligarchs, robber barons, crony Capitalists, and bad policies. How can Libertarianism help except to make things worse by unleashing raw oligarchy on all based on proven bad propositions?

So according to you Crony Capitalism is basically when the board are all friends with each other. That's not exactly the standard definition and there are free market solution to a board that rubber-stamps the actions of the CEO.

 Crony capitalism

Crony capitalism, sometimes called cronyism, is an economic system in which businesses thrive not as a result of free enterprise, but rather as a return on money amassed through collusion between a business class and the political class.

In your version of crony capitalism, which involves the board rubber-stamping anything the CEO says about draining the company dry and putting all the money in their own pockets, how does that prevent other companies that aren't doing that from out-competing them? Are you suggesting that the same people are on the boards of all the companies?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The "political class" has never bothered to deal with the friendly board of director problem.

Google CEO friendly board problem for more. And them perhaps vulture capitalism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Let us discuss crony capitalism a bit. Companies have boards of directors. Some people populating such boards are rather friendly to the CEOs et al. Rubber stamping huge CEO salaries and bonuses. Short term policies such as off shoring jobs. Sitting on a board like this can be quite lucrative. Big money for a few days work a year rubber stamping such things. Such people have reputations for being complacent and not challenging robber baron policies. They thus get invited to sit on numerous such boards. If you are not familiar with this phenomena, which has been a problem for decades, you do not have any understanding of how we got to this point of extreme wealth inequalty in modern day America. The cant that the invisible hand gurantees all good things if government would just get out of the way is Libertarian bull doo doo. The invisible hand gets us oligarchs, robber barons, crony Capitalists, and bad policies. How can Libertarianism help except to make things worse by unleashing raw oligarchy on all based on proven bad propositions?

So according to you Crony Capitalism is basically when the board are all friends with each other. That's not exactly the standard definition and there are free market solution to a board that rubber-stamps the actions of the CEO.

Free market solutions? We saw how the free market worked in the late 19th century. And we are seeing it again today, because the calendar on January 1, 2000, just didn't update the 19 to 20 and we apparently are reliving the 20th century.

The idea that the "free market" can solve the ills within capitalism is just beyond being naïve. Boards of directors aren't in charge to ensure that the will of the free market reigns. They are there to ensure their company reigns.

• Which means consolidation. Look at Facebook. The company hasn't done anything with the IPO money except buy up the "free market solutions" to replacing Facebook with a "better" product.
• It means underselling. Look at Uber and Lyft. These companies ensure others can't exist because they don't even make money! A start up can't fight against that.
• It means using the global system to reduce costs which help the consumer, but not the worker.

I'm uncertain why you need to relive the 19th and 20th centuries to understand that capitalism inevitably leads to massive conglomerations. Fewer choices, fewer jobs, almost no alternatives. It happened with several industries 130 years ago and it has happened again. There are no free market solutions to prevent this, because this isn't a bug of capitalism, it is a benefit to those that come to the game early. Wanna talk newcomers to the automobile, aeronautical, shipment, cable/sat industries? Heck even shopping online has stagnated with options.

 

[marc]

The 'Free Market' always sounds like a religion to me. The 'Free Market' can fix anything, if you just have faith in it. The 'invisible hand' is just another hand of god to set things right. And every time it fails, the excuses tend to be that the example is not a truly free market, because some regulation exists somewhere.

Some of the claimed benefits do seem reasonable when you get closer to perfect competition, such as business trying to produce better products to edge out the other. But with laissez faire capitalism the market tends towards the monopoly end of the spectrum instead. The free market delusion also seems to require customers to be near omnipotent in knowing when a business is providing an inferior or even dangerous product.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Government always sounds like a religion to me. Government can fix anything, if you just have faith in it. Regulation is just another hand of god to set things right. And every time it fails, the excuses tend to be that the example is not truly regulation, because some deregulation exists somewhere.

No back to actual discourse, instead of banal stupidity (and my mockery of banal stupidity).

So when is it free market and when is it crony capitalism? There's got to be a way to distinguish between the two. If I provide such a distinction, idiots will say I'm talking religion, so I guess it is up to others to try to help distinguish between the two.