Libertarians as authoritarians?

[Jarhyn]

Ive always believed the government should completely stay out of the pro life vs control over individual body debate. That the government should neither pay for abortions nor should it make them illegal. I also believe the federal government should allow prostitution, consumption of drugs/alcohol and stay out of fake foreign wars.

So most people say my ideology libertarian.

Yet I also totally support Trump and his MAGA campaign. Does that mean I am a fascist and a libertarian? Or does it mean someone is calling Trump something he really isnt?

I think a lot of people are listening to fake news and calling Trump something he really isnt.

You realize your support of Trump undermines the views you've just espoused, right?

... like with appointment of Jeff Sessions to the DoJ, BK to the SCOTUS, etc.

Part of the issue with the belief that (federal) gov't should stay out of the abortion discussion is that many STATE governments will utterly NOT stay out of that debate... so you still end up with some huge geographical barriers (i.e., contiguous blocks of flyover states) between the women who need abortions and the places they could get them... not to mention the fact that women who can't afford an abortion definitely can't afford to give birth in a hospital or raise a baby, and expecting them to do either of those things is essentially saying that people who have sex should randomly be saddled with debts even worse than the child support payments that a lot of mysogynists buck at when they decide they don't want to be parents.

 

[Sarpedon]

Right, I've said it before.

I fear my local government more than I fear the federal government. The local government has more immediate means and motivations to interfere with me than the bureaucrats in Washington. Of course, I fear the nut next door with a gun more than I fear my local government.

 

[Bronzeage]

I've had discussions with many people who describe themselves as Libertarians. There is diversity, but the common thread through all of them is a belief that society and civilization have given them nothing, and thus they owe nothing back. It's sort of like talking to a large toddler, who has a driver's license.

It's strange to hear a Coast Guard veteran declare that all taxation is theft, but then praise his own selflessness for risking his life, while in the pay of the government. He had no problem accepting stolen money, but he does have a problem sharing it with anyone else, in order to pay for things like public education, clean water, healthcare, etc.

 

[lpetrich]

I've done a lot of collection of political-quiz scores, and I've found that they have some interesting patterns (Political-Compass Scores; Density Plots of Political-Compass Scores). There is typically more variation in the economic axis than in the social axis, and they are correlated in a rather interesting fashion: being rightward is more socially authoritarian, and vice versa. The axis of variation tends to be tilted to the bottom-left-top-right diagonal. Meaning that self-styled libertarians tend to be socially authoritarian.

This is contrary to what libertarians seem to think that it ought to be: bottom-right (them) to top-left (statists).

 

[repoman]

The "State" is already enforcing the contracts dictated by the very wealthy and powerful people who fund libertarian think tanks.

What if the state said to these mega rich people, "enforce your own contracts if you can but without any police force"?

They would pay for private security forces, wouldn't they?

 

[Bomb#20]

The axis of variation tends to be tilted to the bottom-left-top-right diagonal. Meaning that self-styled libertarians tend to be socially authoritarian.

"Meaning" meaning whatever you pull out of your ass and decide it means? Where the heck in those graphs did you measure "self-styled libertarian"-ness? What your graphs appear to show is that conservatives outnumber libertarians. I'm sure that will come as shocking news to the nation's political analysts.

 

[Worldtraveller]

The axis of variation tends to be tilted to the bottom-left-top-right diagonal. Meaning that self-styled libertarians tend to be socially authoritarian.

"Meaning" meaning whatever you pull out of your ass and decide it means? Where the heck in those graphs did you measure "self-styled libertarian"-ness? What your graphs appear to show is that conservatives outnumber libertarians. I'm sure that will come as shocking news to the nation's political analysts.

Did you read the links?

 

[Bomb#20]

Did you read the links?

Yes, but not the 20-odd links within the links. If there is evidence backing up lpetrich's claim, feel free to point it out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'll agree that Trump and his supporters are largely authoritarian, but how does this lend support to the idea that libertarians are authoritarian or support authoritarian government?

From what I've been able to tell, calling oneself "Libertarian" has become somewhat similar to calling oneself "Independent." For many in this crowd, they want to portray themselves as not part of the crowd, and likely honestly think of themselves as not being adequately represented by either party.

A lot of Trump voters call themselves Libertarians even though they don't seem to have the foggiest notion of what the Libertarian party actually represents. The extent of their sophistication on the matter seems to be something along the lines of, "I like capitalism and think gay people are cool." Yet, these people hate liberals, immigrants, and anything not currently associated with Trumpism. IOW, they've hijacked the libertarian name, but for all intents and purposes are Trump Republicans.

As to actual Libertarians, they seem to have an honest and good faith belief that their ideas would bring the greatest good. However, as the relentless creep of corporations has shown,as well as their history of pollution, labor oppression, etc., the nation would become a tyranny of a few large companies with a government too weak to do anything about it.

Agreed. Libertarians are not authoritarian. However, many authoritarians pretend to be libertarian.

And you're looking at the more radical libertarians who have the notion the market can deal with anything. As you show, it can't--the market has very little power to influence a monopoly or even a quasi-monopoly. Those of us on the moderate end of the libertarian spectrum recognize this failing and understand we need the government to step in in the areas where the market can't be made to do the job. Monopolies are one such example--they need regulation and the government should try to avoid their creation in the first place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've had discussions with many people who describe themselves as Libertarians. There is diversity, but the common thread through all of them is a belief that society and civilization have given them nothing, and thus they owe nothing back. It's sort of like talking to a large toddler, who has a driver's license.

Disagree. While there certainly are such idiots they aren't anything like all libertarians and I would hesitate to call them libertarian at all. True libertarians recognize that what services the government provides cost money that needs to be obtained somehow.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I've had discussions with many people who describe themselves as Libertarians. There is diversity, but the common thread through all of them is a belief that society and civilization have given them nothing, and thus they owe nothing back. It's sort of like talking to a large toddler, who has a driver's license.

Disagree. While there certainly are such idiots they aren't anything like all libertarians and I would hesitate to call them libertarian at all. True libertarians recognize that what services the government provides cost money that needs to be obtained somehow.

And true scotsman only eat porridge with honey.

...or was it sugar?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've had discussions with many people who describe themselves as Libertarians. There is diversity, but the common thread through all of them is a belief that society and civilization have given them nothing, and thus they owe nothing back. It's sort of like talking to a large toddler, who has a driver's license.

Disagree. While there certainly are such idiots they aren't anything like all libertarians and I would hesitate to call them libertarian at all. True libertarians recognize that what services the government provides cost money that needs to be obtained somehow.

And true scotsman only eat porridge with honey.

...or was it sugar?

This isn't a true scotsman case, it's a lot of people claiming to be of an ideology that they actually are nothing like.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ive always believed the government should completely stay out of the pro life vs control over individual body debate. That the government should neither pay for abortions nor should it make them illegal. I also believe the federal government should allow prostitution, consumption of drugs/alcohol and stay out of fake foreign wars.

So most people say my ideology libertarian.

Yet I also totally support Trump and his MAGA campaign. Does that mean I am a fascist and a libertarian? Or does it mean someone is calling Trump something he really isnt?

I think a lot of people are listening to fake news and calling Trump something he really isnt.

You realize your support of Trump undermines the views you've just espoused, right?

... like with appointment of Jeff Sessions to the DoJ, BK to the SCOTUS, etc.

Part of the issue with the belief that (federal) gov't should stay out of the abortion discussion is that many STATE governments will utterly NOT stay out of that debate... so you still end up with some huge geographical barriers (i.e., contiguous blocks of flyover states) between the women who need abortions and the places they could get them... not to mention the fact that women who can't afford an abortion definitely can't afford to give birth in a hospital or raise a baby, and expecting them to do either of those things is essentially saying that people who have sex should randomly be saddled with debts even worse than the child support payments that a lot of mysogynists buck at when they decide they don't want to be parents.

I believe the federal government is by definition involved in the abortion discussion for the simple reason that bodily autonomy underpins our other rights. While I'm no longer a libertarian, I still hold some of the principles dear, and one is that the government should not be able to decide for us such personal issues as abortion, assisted suicide, and so forth. They are involved in the discussion. The federal government has a duty to protect the rights of people when those rights are threatened, particularly when the states are involved in attacking said rights.

 

[Bomb#20]

I've had discussions with many people who describe themselves as Libertarians. There is diversity, but the common thread through all of them is a belief that society and civilization have given them nothing, and thus they owe nothing back. It's sort of like talking to a large toddler, who has a driver's license.

Disagree. While there certainly are such idiots they aren't anything like all libertarians and I would hesitate to call them libertarian at all. True libertarians recognize that what services the government provides cost money that needs to be obtained somehow.

And true scotsman only eat porridge with honey.

...or was it sugar?

This isn't a true scotsman case, it's a lot of people claiming to be of an ideology that they actually are nothing like.

Both of your analyses proceed from the implicit assumption that a reliable way to find out what somebody believes is to uncritically accept claims about what he believes made by his political opponents.