• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Lifting the Veil of “Islamophobia”

How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture. Islam is not just a different culture, it's a whole primitive, alien way of life that really has no bearing to the 21st century. It's lack of distinction between a private and a public life, treating all aspects of human relations as governable by allahs law. The sharia laws are based on the qu'ran and hadiths, it's part of who a muslim is, no matter if he is a shia, sunni or whatever. All adhere to their paedophile prophet Mohammad and some magic man called Allan. [allah]
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture.

You've never run across Christians who put down work for religious reasons when there might have been business? That's ... interesting.

Here's a list of public holidays in Austria with their dates (in 2014 in the case of movable holidays), all but three being Christian religious celebrations.
  • New Year's Day 1st January
  • Epiphany 6th January
  • Easter 19th April - 21st April
  • National Holiday 1st May
  • Ascension Day 29th May
  • Whit Monday 9th June
  • Corpus Christi 19th June
  • Assumption of the Virgin Mary 15th August
  • National Holiday 26th October
  • All Saints' Day 1st November
  • Immaculate Conception 8th December
  • Christmas 24th - 26th December
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith.
Really? And how many Christian denominations and their resulting doctrines have you observed rather than "hear about"? Has it been a long term hobby of yours to be a member of diverse denominational Churches to where you can come to your conclusion? I had got close to 40 years of direct participation as a Christian in a variety of Christian denominations. Starting off with the RCC to then be immersed in Protestant and Reformed Churches and then Apostolic and charismatic Evangelical denominations.

How could anyone *think* that charismatic Churches members who claim to have the "Gifts of the Spirit" do not base their whole being on their faith? How could anyone *think* that Ligonier Ministries scholars such as RC Sproul who have developed on the doctrine of total depravity would consider that Christians do not base their whole being on their faith? Are you so removed from Christianity that you are unaware of the number of Christians who abide to religious practices dictated by the doctrines taught in their respective Churches?


I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
And how does that differ from "dry counties" in the US where the sale and serving of alcoholic beverages is prohibited on Sundays? How does that differ from the "unnatural sex" law of the State of Virginia? I will tell you how it differs : the impact of your praying Muslim and delayed access to a store is extremely minimal compared to the impact on the public at large of legislation and laws in the US pushed forward and promoted and passed by elected politicians affiliated with the Christian Religious Right Wing. Oh but you are going to whine about Muslims exercising their religious rights protected under their Constitutional Identity while in a pluralistic democratic Republic like the US the Religious Right Wing has managed to influence elected conservative legislators into passing laws obstructing women's access to health care specifically targeting their reproductive rights!

I never ran across that in any other culture. Islam is not just a different culture, it's a whole primitive, alien way of life that really has no bearing to the 21st century.
And what bearing to the 21 st Century do you *think* the ongoing attempts from the Christian Right Wing to turn a pluralistic democratic Republic into a Christian theocratic craphole have? And what further bearing on the 21st Century about the ongoing attempts to infiltrate the public educational system by imposing curriculum items in Science Classes covering ID and by extension YEC crap? And what bearing on the 21st century when an elected legislator claims that there is no such thing as a pregnancy resulting from a "real rape" because the female anatomy automatically protects the victim from getting pregnant if it is a "real rape". Do you have any idea of the number of primitive and barbaric beliefs those politically empowered Christians hold in the 21 st Century?

It's lack of distinction between a private and a public life, treating all aspects of human relations as governable by allahs law.
As if PUBLIC displays of Christian religious piety are somehow not observed throughout the US. As if those displays are not the direct product of devout Christians who insist and persist in shoveling down everyone's throat their beliefs while claiming to detain a copyright on character and morality. As if such devotion is not the direct product of their considering the Bible as THE manual of instructions for human relations and laws. It even goes as far as considering the Bible as the manual of instructions for human health. Goes as far as considering the Bible as the manual for absolute truth regarding science such as YECreationism.


The sharia laws are based on the qu'ran and hadiths, it's part of who a muslim is, no matter if he is a shia, sunni or whatever. All adhere to their paedophile prophet Mohammad and some magic man called Allan. [allah]
And all Christians are called to abide to the Great Commission and preach the Gospel of a sugar coated Jesus whose motto is "believe onto me or else....".Need I to start a thread in GRD and expand on what the "or else" is all about? Yet it is that Jesus boogie man who relies on threats and intimidation whom Christians are called to follow, obey and worship and be thankful for.
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
You've never tried to buy a Chik-Fil-A on a Sunday?
You've never heard of people choosing not to do business with gays because their religion says it's wrong, which is more important to them than business?
Never heard of the so-called 'blue laws?' Legislating religion so that people who don't share one's faith still have to live by one's dogma?

Man. Do you really not see this or just not notice it because they're not muslims?
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture.

You've never run across Christians who put down work for religious reasons when there might have been business? That's ... interesting.

Here's a list of public holidays in Austria with their dates (in 2014 in the case of movable holidays), all but three being Christian religious celebrations.
  • New Year's Day 1st January
  • Epiphany 6th January
  • Easter 19th April - 21st April
  • National Holiday 1st May
  • Ascension Day 29th May
  • Whit Monday 9th June
  • Corpus Christi 19th June
  • Assumption of the Virgin Mary 15th August
  • National Holiday 26th October
  • All Saints' Day 1st November
  • Immaculate Conception 8th December
  • Christmas 24th - 26th December

And I will add that the above is certainly not unique to Austria. Finding a pharmacy open on August 15th in Naples, Italy, was not a piece of cake. Then you have to add (in the case of Italy) all the local Saints celebrations as businesses will close down. The village where I lived in Sicily (Trecastagni) held a yearly celebration of their 3 Saints lasting 2 days during which everything was closed. On August 15th which is considered one of the holiest of the Catholic holidays, NATO facilities in Naples would shut down in accordance with the host nation's (Italy) calendar of holidays.

Is it also unknown to someone who lives in the UK the number of Catholic origin holidays in France when businesses shut down? Spain? Portugal?
 
I had a business meeting with a high street bank (the Global HQ, not a branch) cancelled because the execs were in a prayer meeting.
 
You said it all.

The fun fact (or sad fact, for you), though, is that the Catholic and mainline Protestant establishment is inerrantist but not literalist. People do get heresy charges for questioning inerrantism (I posted one example in #227, repeated below for your convenience). Now it's true that in mainline Protestantism, being charged with, and convicted for, heresy means you loose your ministry, while in some Islamic contexts it can mean you loose your life. But that's not the point. The point is that this is enough to show that your claim that moderate Christians are not inerrrantist is false, and thus demanding of Muslims to give up inerrantism hypocricy.

Peter Cameron (Presbyterian, Australia, 1992)[edit]
On 2 March 1992, at a Dorcas Society rally in the Ashfield Presbyterian Church, Peter Cameron, Principal of St Andrew's College at the University of Sydney, preached a sermon entitled "The Place of Women in the Church". As well as supporting the principle that women should be ordained to the ministry, it argued that the Bible had to be understood in the context of the times in which it was written. Cameron was tried and convicted for heresy. He appealed, but resigned before the appeal could be heard.


I do not deny that there are problems with Christianity and I am actually very critical of the aspects which are below the standards of Enlightenment. However liberal (or moderate) Christianity definitely embraced the methodologies of Enlightenment science as the basis for interpreting the Bible, contrary to what you say renouncing innerantism is not only far from anathema but it is actually applied. Actually even more conservative Christians are open to it (I remember now one of Bart Ehrman's stories; when he tried during his school years, he was a fundamentalist at the time, to explain away some contradiction in the New Testament, if I remember well, by writing a very very long essay his conservative professor wrote under it 'Well maybe Mark was wrong'). The way toward extending the rejection of inerrancy to much more important aspects of religion is paved.

From what I see people here focus on some negative aspects of Christianity (especially form USA) but fail to see the sea of positive parts which bring this religion eons ahead of Islam (where innerantism is dogma and the prospects dim, no chance to hear soon 'maybe Muhammad was wrong' in the day light). Sadly there is not even a liberal islam (on a par with liberal Christianity) not to mention the so called 'Progressive Christianity'* (see Wikipedia, I do not really like the term 'progressive', the so called 'western progressives' apologists of islam brought the term progressive into disrepute :) , but I can only be very sympathetic with their approach).

There is a cause that islam is slow to modernize and this is of course the well known fact that its core is much more reactionary (having also a lot of 'special' mechanisms to prevent important change and replacement, thus inherently more difficult to bring it in line with Modernity). Only an important change can bring it beyond a certain 'barrier of potential' which to make very plausible that it will not fall back toward the past (small reforms do not really work, see the near end of the Ataturk experiment, the same await the more modern approaches of many dictators in the Islamic world in the future, sadly at the base the masses are still too indoctrinated with the defective parts of islam). And here I think we have a moral obligation to catalyse the apparition of a new islam via simply telling the truth.

Personally I am very sympathetic with a liberalist approach (very good ideas can be chocked by too much authoritarianism), we are not that far away as you think (actually I come from your direction, moved away after understanding islam), but sometimes we have to be capable to just put a bridle to some extreme ideologies. Sadly islam is in this category (especially it shows little prospect that it can reform to be totally in conformity with Modernity**). It's as simple as that: tell the truth about islam by rejecting the view that sharia is fully compatible with Modernity (or that islam is peace, feminism, democracy, equalitarianism and so on) yet give all the secular rights we enjoy to its adherents.


*its basic tenets, of progressive Christianity, are summarized here:

1. An insistence on personal intellectual integrity, paying attention to one’s reason and experience in conversation with traditional teachings and contemporary scholarship

2. A resistance to claims that Christianity is the only or best religion and a desire for interfaith dialogue as an avenue to peace and global understanding

3. Public advocacy for the full participation of woman and of gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgender people

4. A strong commitment to social justice and ecology

5. A desire for creative worship and spiritual vitality. [9]

http://www.valwebb.com.au/index.php/progressive-christianity-in-the-uniting-church-in-australia/


**
When Muhammad Ali as-Sanusi (1787–1859) attempted to reopen the gates to ijtihad, he was rebuked in a typical fatwa by the mufti of Cairo, who said, “For no one denies the fact that the dignity of ijtihad has long disappeared and that at the present time no man has attained this degree of learning. He who believed himself to be a mujtahid [a scholar qualified to exercise ijtihad] would be under the influence of his hallucinations and of the devil.”

Robert Reilly 'The closing of the muslim mind' chapter 2

In spite of centuries now of exposure to Modernity the 'gates of the ijtihad' remain (almost) closed, the medieval Islamic jurisprudence (which in large parts is not considered immutable) is still with us, almost untouched. What reasons are there to expect renouncing inerrancy in the quran?
 
Last edited:
Whether "liberal (or moderate) Christianity definitely embraced the methodologies of Enlightenment science" surely depends on how you define "liberal"/"moderate". What I've shown is that it requires a definition by which major churches not generally grouped under the label "evangelical", such as the Catholic Church, or what is called "mainline Protestant churches" in the anglophone context (Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian), fail the test.

You're demanding, not just of individual Muslims but of the Islamic religious establishment, that it take steps Catholic/Anglican/Lutheran churches haven't taken yet before you'll even think of accepting them as "moderate". This is a fact. And this is hypocrisy. Nothing in your long post changes this.
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture.

You've never run across Christians who put down work for religious reasons when there might have been business? That's ... interesting.

Here's a list of public holidays in Austria with their dates (in 2014 in the case of movable holidays), all but three being Christian religious celebrations.
  • New Year's Day 1st January
  • Epiphany 6th January
  • Easter 19th April - 21st April
  • National Holiday 1st May
  • Ascension Day 29th May
  • Whit Monday 9th June
  • Corpus Christi 19th June
  • Assumption of the Virgin Mary 15th August
  • National Holiday 26th October
  • All Saints' Day 1st November
  • Immaculate Conception 8th December
  • Christmas 24th - 26th December
WTF..........Apart from easter, xmas, none of those days are public holidays.
 
There is no comparison between xtianity and islam. Even though one cult is around 1400 years old while the other around 2000 years old, the former may have it's fundamentalist, especially in the US, but it has to a certain extent modernised itself in most places, but as I said before, ALL followers of the latter cult are still following their primitive nonsense which is dragging most muslim countries back to the 15th century.
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture.

You've never run across Christians who put down work for religious reasons when there might have been business? That's ... interesting.

Here's a list of public holidays in Austria with their dates (in 2014 in the case of movable holidays), all but three being Christian religious celebrations.
  • New Year's Day 1st January
  • Epiphany 6th January
  • Easter 19th April - 21st April
  • National Holiday 1st May
  • Ascension Day 29th May
  • Whit Monday 9th June
  • Corpus Christi 19th June
  • Assumption of the Virgin Mary 15th August
  • National Holiday 26th October
  • All Saints' Day 1st November
  • Immaculate Conception 8th December
  • Christmas 24th - 26th December
WTF..........Apart from easter, xmas, none of those days are public holidays.
Did you dismiss what I detailed regarding Italy? Dismiss equally l'Ascension, l'Assomption, Easter Monday and Christmas in France? Remember that your claim was " I never ran across that in any other culture". I will safely assume that you are a rare exception to the number of people who would never deny that there are several nations in Europe where religious holidays result in interfering with public life. Same number of people fully aware that those religious holidays are of Christian origin. Which makes it a culture other than one influenced by the religion of Islam. Are you still holding to your claim?
 
How many faiths live and breath their delusions. I don't often hear of xtians basing their whole being on their faith. I was a sales rep, and had some muslim clients which I and other reps knew to not call at their stores just after 12 pm because it was prayer time and we would need to either wait or return later, even though customers were walking out because they were been ignored while the muslim was in a corner on a prayer mat with his ass up in the air.
I never ran across that in any other culture.

You've never run across Christians who put down work for religious reasons when there might have been business? That's ... interesting.

Here's a list of public holidays in Austria with their dates (in 2014 in the case of movable holidays), all but three being Christian religious celebrations.
  • New Year's Day 1st January
  • Epiphany 6th January
  • Easter 19th April - 21st April
  • National Holiday 1st May
  • Ascension Day 29th May
  • Whit Monday 9th June
  • Corpus Christi 19th June
  • Assumption of the Virgin Mary 15th August
  • National Holiday 26th October
  • All Saints' Day 1st November
  • Immaculate Conception 8th December
  • Christmas 24th - 26th December
WTF..........Apart from easter, xmas, none of those days are public holidays.

All of them are in Austria. Which is what I said.
 
There is no comparison between xtianity and islam. ...
he said, immediately followed by comparing Xianity and Islam....
no, he immediately followed by contrasting them.
Both the old meaning of "comparision" and the meaning of "comparison" in the idiomatic phrase "there is no comparision" focus on significant similarity.
 
Last edited:
I'm still a little confused by the thrust of the argument. It seems to revolve around the idea that because Muslims adhere to a philosophy that is more foreign than Christianity, the normal human rights shouldn't apply.

If you believe that human rights are contingent on how they're used, then you don't really believe in human rights. Let alone 'enlightenment values'.

And how is any of this different from good old-fashioned bigotry?
 
There is no comparison between xtianity and islam. ...
he said, immediately followed by comparing Xianity and Islam....
no, he immediately followed by contrasting them.
Both the old meaning of "comparision" and the meaning of "comparison" in the idiomatic phrase "there is no comparision" focus on significant similarity.

But, but, but... But toothpaste commercials never say 'let's contrast!'
Or car dealerships.
Or coffee.
Or detergent...
 
I'm still a little confused by the thrust of the argument. It seems to revolve around the idea that because Muslims adhere to a philosophy that is more foreign than Christianity, the normal human rights shouldn't apply.

If you believe that human rights are contingent on how they're used, then you don't really believe in human rights. Let alone 'enlightenment values'.
And not just human rights. Tampering with the Rights and Privileges conferred by one's Constitutional Identity strikes me as a contradiction to any claim of upholding democratic principles.

And how is any of this different from good old-fashioned bigotry?
IMO, folks who advocate measures which result in tampering with human rights and Constitutional Identity while targeting all Muslims do not see themselves as bigots. They see themselves as champions of a cause, the specific cause of neutralizing the propagation of Islam by attacking the believers themselves and depriving them of rights and privileges afforded to all other members of our society. The point they keep missing is that they attempt to penalize thought or belief rather than focusing on the members of factions who have engaged in criminal activities. Such "champions" while portraying themselves as guardians of Western democratic values end up undermining those values via their wishful thinking of penalizing X group's thoughts/beliefs.
 
<snip>but as I said before, ALL followers of the latter cult are <snip>

You mean like when you claimed that ALL Muslims send their kids to Islamic schools and Islamic schools only, whereas an analysis of the atual data showed that the ratio of kids going to secular schools is higher among many Western Muslim populations than among Western Christians? Shouldn't that have taught you to be a bit more careful with absolute claims?
 
<snip>but as I said before, ALL followers of the latter cult are <snip>

You mean like when you claimed that ALL Muslims send their kids to Islamic schools and Islamic schools only, whereas an analysis of the atual data showed that the ratio of kids going to secular schools is higher among many Western Muslim populations than among Western Christians? Shouldn't that have taught you to be a bit more careful with absolute claims?
You'd think he was starting with the conclusion and then looking for evidence. He might just be skipping that last part.
 
Back
Top Bottom