Losing the War for the Sake of a Battle

[Jarhyn]

So, I don't think anyone here could mistake me for a Biden supporter. I'm a voice, oftentimes obnoxiously loud, who calls for principled progress and egalitarianism. I have and will continue to champion causes because I know to be right for myself and my society at large.

With that in mind, I think it is important to ask ourselves, "is it worth losing a war to win a single battle?"

Obviously, the answer here is that NO, it is not worth losing everything over a single hill; even that hill will be soon be lost again.

To make this more clear, I have said this before but I was, for the period of 7 years in a relationship with an abusive man. He took advantage of me, drained me financially, and abused me emotionally and physically. There were physical altercations wherein I defended myself, and walked out only to be coaxed back with empty promises.

I would vote for that man before I would vote for Trump. I wouldn't not vote. I would, with as much pain as can possibly be imagined for someone who has led my life, put that check next to my abuser's name.

Why? Because I know for a fact that Trump is worse.

So when confronted with the choice between a doddering old fool with dimentia who has a questionable history and the child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia, I think the choice is clear. This is just a battle and I would live to see the next. We won't get that if we are unable to swallow our bile and do something distasteful to avoid something worse.

 

[Patooka]

“If you want to pull the major party that is closest to the way you’re thinking to what you’re thinking you must show them that you’re capable of not voting for them. If you don’t show them that you’re capable of not voting for them, they don’t have to listen to you. I promise you that. I worked within the Democratic Party. I didn’t listen or have to listen to anything on the left while I was working in the Democratic Party because the left had nowhere to go.”
Lawrence O'Donnell


I think it's fair to say that the Democratic Party has always taken it's base for granted, and certain elements are frustrated. Frustrated people act impulsively and not rationally. Biden is going to need these people to vote for him and I can't think of an election where someone won solely because they weren't the other person. Ask John Kerry or Bill Shorten.

I also think Trump's net worth to humanity is what you would get if you sold his organs on ebay, but the onus lies with the candidate as to why people should vote for them, and Biden's message has been pretty average. Say what you will about Republicans (and by all means say it often, they fucking deserve it), they always motivated Teabaggers and the Christian Taliban to get out and vote and never took them for granted. Bernie supporters actually have some good ideas and are treated worse than birther fuckwits. I agree 100% that nothing can be worse than Trump, but I really can't condemn someone who feels disillusioned in this election and just wants to donkey vote this one.

 

[Jarhyn]

“If you want to pull the major party that is closest to the way you’re thinking to what you’re thinking you must show them that you’re capable of not voting for them. If you don’t show them that you’re capable of not voting for them, they don’t have to listen to you. I promise you that. I worked within the Democratic Party. I didn’t listen or have to listen to anything on the left while I was working in the Democratic Party because the left had nowhere to go.”
Lawrence O'Donnell


I think it's fair to say that the Democratic Party has always taken it's base for granted, and certain elements are frustrated. Frustrated people act impulsively and not rationally. Biden is going to need these people to vote for him and I can't think of an election where someone won solely because they weren't the other person. Ask John Kerry or Bill Shorten.

I also think Trump's net worth to humanity is what you would get if you sold his organs on ebay, but the onus lies with the candidate as to why people should vote for them, and Biden's message has been pretty average. Say what you will about Republicans (and by all means say it often, they fucking deserve it), they always motivated Teabaggers and the Christian Taliban to get out and vote and never took them for granted. Bernie supporters actually have some good ideas and are treated worse than birther fuckwits. I agree 100% that nothing can be worse than Trump, but I really can't condemn someone who feels disillusioned in this election and just wants to donkey vote this one.

I can and absolutely will fault people for bad strategic decisions.

One thing I consistently uphold is the concept of goal-oriented action. FIRST you consider your goal and then you answer honestly and clearly what series of actions will take you there.

This does not say that the end justified the means, but the end DOES filter the means: if the means don't satisfy the goal, you throw them away, and when the means takes you permanently away from your ends, they are wholely foolish.

Of course, a lot of this comes down to deficiencies in our current process.

I was a Bernie supporter. With any luck, Biden could in fact see the writing on the wall and drop out. Personally, I would rather see him get impeached. But failure to plan the next battle will absolutely lose us the country with the sudden influx of federalist society judges and the loss of RBG.

 

[barbos]

I am confused with war-battle analogy here. What is what?

 

[ZiprHead]

While both of you above make good points, I believe our voting system leaves just two choices of parties. That's why I like the movement that AOC and others like her have started, working within the Democratic party the way the Tea Baggers worked within the Republican party. The left movement is still in its infancy but it seems to be growing slowly and steadily.

That said, not voting against Trump and allowing him to win again will only be detrimental to all the Democratic party. The left movement cannot succeed without cooperating with the moderates in the party and gaining power. For instance, while Biden has stated he is against MFA, if a Democratic controlled congress passes an MFA program, I do believe, considering congressional AND public support, Biden would sign it. It would be the same across many issues. I believe Biden will cooperate with a more left leaning Democratic Party.

If Trump and the Republicans win again, the leftward movement in the party will not matter one bit.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am confused with war-battle analogy here. What is what?

The battle of not voting for an unfortunate candidate vs the war for not having our democracy collapse.

 

[barbos]

I am confused with war-battle analogy here. What is what?

The battle of not voting for an unfortunate candidate vs the war for not having our democracy collapse.

OK, I see, Biden as another Clinton.

 

[Lion IRC]

I am confused with war-battle analogy here. What is what?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHitXxH-us[/YOUTUBE]

 

[lpetrich]

While both of you above make good points, I believe our voting system leaves just two choices of parties. That's why I like the movement that AOC and others like her have started, working within the Democratic party the way the Tea Baggers worked within the Republican party. The left movement is still in its infancy but it seems to be growing slowly and steadily.

That makes me think of what the founders of the PAC  Brand New Congress wanted to create. BNC was founded in 2016 by some campaigners for Bernie Sanders in that year. They wanted to create a European-style political party with unified messaging, but they discovered a problem. Third parties have done *very* badly in US politics. So they decided to run their candidates inside the two existing parties, and as independents where appropriate.

They wanted some 400+ candidates, but they settled on 30 candidates. One ran as a Republican, one as an Independent, and the other 28 as Democrats. Of these, 9 of them won in the primaries, all Democrats, and only one of them won in the general election - AOC, another Bernie Sanders campaigner.

BNC is trying again this year, with 45 candidates, this time all Democrats.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

So, I don't think anyone here could mistake me for a Biden supporter. I'm a voice, oftentimes obnoxiously loud, who calls for principled progress and egalitarianism. I have and will continue to champion causes because I know to be right for myself and my society at large.

With that in mind, I think it is important to ask ourselves, "is it worth losing a war to win a single battle?"

Obviously, the answer here is that NO, it is not worth losing everything over a single hill; even that hill will be soon be lost again.

To make this more clear, I have said this before but I was, for the period of 7 years in a relationship with an abusive man. He took advantage of me, drained me financially, and abused me emotionally and physically. There were physical altercations wherein I defended myself, and walked out only to be coaxed back with empty promises.

I would vote for that man before I would vote for Trump. I wouldn't not vote. I would, with as much pain as can possibly be imagined for someone who has led my life, put that check next to my abuser's name.

Why? Because I know for a fact that Trump is worse.

So when confronted with the choice between a doddering old fool with dimentia who has a questionable history and the child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia, I think the choice is clear. This is just a battle and I would live to see the next. We won't get that if we are unable to swallow our bile and do something distasteful to avoid something worse.

It all makes voting easier if we think of it as voting for future supreme Court justices, cabinet members, economic advisers, and much much more. I am no Biden fan, but I am not voting just for Biden, but for much more beyond Biden. I wanted Warren or Sanders, but the Democratic primary voters have spoken, the bastards. I want a president who does not spend 6 hours a day listening to Faux Nooz, and idiots like Sean Insanity. A president that takes no cues from ALEC. A president that doesn't lie and lie and lie with no shame whatsoever. I want to see the lunatics Trump surrounds himself with, his brain damaged 'spiritual advisers' banish from the oval office. An attorney general that is not corrupt and stupid and right winged.

I will vote for Biden because there is far more at stake than just who will be president.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So when confronted with the choice between a doddering old fool with dimentia who has a questionable history and the child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia, I think the choice is clear.

You need to tell us which one is which.

 

[Tigers!]

If only half the population are voting then you have huge problems.

Your candidates in the last few elections are not ones that would have given me much enthuaism to vote for them. Though I usually vote for parties not people.

 

[Jarhyn]

So when confronted with the choice between a doddering old fool with dimentia who has a questionable history and the child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia, I think the choice is clear.

You need to tell us which one is which.

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

Are you smarter than a sixth grader?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So when confronted with the choice between a doddering old fool with dimentia who has a questionable history and the child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia, I think the choice is clear.

You need to tell us which one is which.

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

Are you smarter than a sixth grader?

Well, all the pictures of Biden sniffing children, and his having grabbed the crotch of one of his staffers, makes me think that the "child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia" must be Biden. Trump talked the talk, and Biden walked the walk.

 

[Derec]

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

I assume that by "child rapist" you mean Trump. What child did Trump supposedly rape?

 

[Jarhyn]

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

Are you smarter than a sixth grader?

Well, all the pictures of Biden sniffing children, and his having grabbed the crotch of one of his staffers, makes me think that the "child rapist old fool with dimentia owned by Russia" must be Biden. Trump talked the talk, and Biden walked the walk.

Apparently you are not, in fact, smarter than a sixth grader. That's sad.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I do not understand sixth graders. Ok Karen.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

I assume that by "child rapist" you mean Trump. What child did Trump supposedly rape?

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-teen-rape-allegation-national-enquirer-ronan-farrow-jane-doe-1465652
...
Among the lurid details of the lawsuit, Jane Doe alleged Trump tied her to a bed, "forcibly raped" her and threatened her and her family with physical harm, if not death, if she told anyone about the assault. "I understood that Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein knew that I was 13 years old," Jane Doe wrote in an affidavit.
...

Don't play dumb.

 

[Jarhyn]

If you can't tell from the statements made by their action ns, then you are already lost. This is a very basic thing to derive, something many 12 year olds can accomplish.

I assume that by "child rapist" you mean Trump. What child did Trump supposedly rape?

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-teen-rape-allegation-national-enquirer-ronan-farrow-jane-doe-1465652
...
Among the lurid details of the lawsuit, Jane Doe alleged Trump tied her to a bed, "forcibly raped" her and threatened her and her family with physical harm, if not death, if she told anyone about the assault. "I understood that Mr. Trump and Mr. Epstein knew that I was 13 years old," Jane Doe wrote in an affidavit.
...

Don't play dumb.

And of course, because they dropped charges after many death threats (they were going to go public and then reversed), there is a vocal band of idiots that says it is all made up. Despite the fact that the guy walked the dressing room where little girls are changing and his own daughter handwaved it away because he does it to her all the time.

Like what the fuck?

I mean he has admitted on multiple occasions to wanting to fuck his daughter.

And you probably shouldn't accuse him of playing dumb. That's giving a lot of credit. When people show me who they are, I at least have the good manners to believe them

As I said, I'd sooner vote for my awful ex before I would vote for Trump because I want there to be a next battle in this war for America's soul, where the guy we need to beat stiffs his own countrymen out of PPE and offers it to Russia unbidden.

 

[Toni]

“If you want to pull the major party that is closest to the way you’re thinking to what you’re thinking you must show them that you’re capable of not voting for them. If you don’t show them that you’re capable of not voting for them, they don’t have to listen to you. I promise you that. I worked within the Democratic Party. I didn’t listen or have to listen to anything on the left while I was working in the Democratic Party because the left had nowhere to go.”
Lawrence O'Donnell


I think it's fair to say that the Democratic Party has always taken it's base for granted, and certain elements are frustrated. Frustrated people act impulsively and not rationally. Biden is going to need these people to vote for him and I can't think of an election where someone won solely because they weren't the other person. Ask John Kerry or Bill Shorten.

I also think Trump's net worth to humanity is what you would get if you sold his organs on ebay, but the onus lies with the candidate as to why people should vote for them, and Biden's message has been pretty average. Say what you will about Republicans (and by all means say it often, they fucking deserve it), they always motivated Teabaggers and the Christian Taliban to get out and vote and never took them for granted. Bernie supporters actually have some good ideas and are treated worse than birther fuckwits. I agree 100% that nothing can be worse than Trump, but I really can't condemn someone who feels disillusioned in this election and just wants to donkey vote this one.

I can and absolutely will fault people for bad strategic decisions.

One thing I consistently uphold is the concept of goal-oriented action. FIRST you consider your goal and then you answer honestly and clearly what series of actions will take you there.

This does not say that the end justified the means, but the end DOES filter the means: if the means don't satisfy the goal, you throw them away, and when the means takes you permanently away from your ends, they are wholely foolish.

Of course, a lot of this comes down to deficiencies in our current process.

I was a Bernie supporter. With any luck, Biden could in fact see the writing on the wall and drop out. Personally, I would rather see him get impeached. But failure to plan the next battle will absolutely lose us the country with the sudden influx of federalist society judges and the loss of RBG.

Real question: For what do you believe that Biden could be impeached?

Second: how would Bernie, yet another doddering old white dude in poor health be a better choice? FFS, within his own campaign there have been allegations of sexism, sexual harassment and btw, Mr. Pay a Living Wage didn’t pay a living wage to his staff. And then here is the weird essay he wrote about women fantasizing about being gang raped—for a class? And it wasn’t even well written much less appropriate for any coursework. He’s a doddering old man with poor health and attitudes straight out of the sixties and seventies. Which were far less cool or progressive than you might have been led to believe. I remember them. I wasn’t a fan in my teens and I expect far more now than I did 40 years ago.

Sanders wasn’t the only progressive running. He hasn’t even been very effective as Senator. There was a full slate of good candidates and still we end up with doddering old white guy and guys bemoaning it wasn’t the right doddering old white guy.