Loyalty is deeply immoral

[SIB]

This brief video outlines five "pillars of morality":

• Avoiding harm to others (especially the weak)
• Fairness
• Loyalty (to an in-group)
• Authority and tradition
• Purity

According to the video,

• conservatives give high weight to ALL five pillars
• libertarians give low weight to all five — whatever you want to do is OK.
• liberals give high weight only to the first two — actions are OK if they're fair and not harmful to others

There are MANY discussions of this idea on the 'Net. Here is a 18-page pdf paper by Jonathan Haidt et al; and one more click from this link will take you to a more recent 20-page pdf paper.

Jonathan Haidt is an intelligent centrist commentator who is cited here often, especially by me:

. . .
Yet huge attention is hijacked away from all important issues so one side can yell at the other about gender identity, racial conflicts, and so on. A big problem — working toward fixing it should be one of the most urgent tasks of political America — is this extreme polarization. Without a strong center, priorities get scrambled and conflict just grows.

I look in vain for a thread in "Political Discussions" where this highest-priority discussion is on point. In all the dozens of recent threads, this one may come closest. So I'll repost here some comments from another thread.

Here is a YouTube in which Jonathan Haidt discusses the "Structural Stupidity" which arose in America about 2012. (He blames Twitter, Instagram and other social media.) It's related to his article "Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid" in The Atlantic

yeah, the first red flag is when I see "My group" is really following the path. "liberals, the far left kind, are as sick as the far right. I wonder how many "liberals" will admit to that?

"conservative", not the far right, but more the middle, do look at all five. People can't just do what they want. And they take the stance that "we" would love to help everybody, but we just don't have enough resources. and of course, they look at what was "our" role in the outcome. Liberals, again not the middle left, tend to see who can we blame for what happened to a person, other than the person.

The "perceived victims" can do 90/100 things wrong and if the perceived "suppressor" does 10/100 wrong, they lay total blame on the perceived oppressor.

Yeah, they are exactly the problem with loyality.

 

[SIB]

This brief video outlines five "pillars of morality":

• Avoiding harm to others (especially the weak)
• Fairness
• Loyalty (to an in-group)
• Authority and tradition
• Purity

According to the video,

• conservatives give high weight to ALL five pillars
• libertarians give low weight to all five — whatever you want to do is OK.
• liberals give high weight only to the first two — actions are OK if they're fair and not harmful to others

There are MANY discussions of this idea on the 'Net. Here is a 18-page pdf paper by Jonathan Haidt et al; and one more click from this link will take you to a more recent 20-page pdf paper.

Jonathan Haidt is an intelligent centrist commentator who is cited here often, especially by me:

. . .
Yet huge attention is hijacked away from all important issues so one side can yell at the other about gender identity, racial conflicts, and so on. A big problem — working toward fixing it should be one of the most urgent tasks of political America — is this extreme polarization. Without a strong center, priorities get scrambled and conflict just grows.

I look in vain for a thread in "Political Discussions" where this highest-priority discussion is on point. In all the dozens of recent threads, this one may come closest. So I'll repost here some comments from another thread.

Here is a YouTube in which Jonathan Haidt discusses the "Structural Stupidity" which arose in America about 2012. (He blames Twitter, Instagram and other social media.) It's related to his article "Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid" in The Atlantic

yeah, the first red flag is when I see "My group" is really following the path. "liberals", the far left kind, are as sick as the far right. I wonder how many "liberals" will admit to that?

 

[lostone]

What is 'Far Left'? The American (Conservative?) POV seems to include many that would be merely moderate leftist Centrists in other parts of the world.

 

[SIB]

What is 'Far Left'? The American (Conservative?) POV seems to include many that would be merely moderate leftist Centrists in other parts of the world.

yeah that's a problem to me also. I often say "most people are liberals." Some of us just think that loyalty in one direction is stupidity. Its ok to ask "I (we) am giving you all of this. What are you doing to help yourselves? What is your community doing with the resources you are given?"

for me, when the right says "You're not a real righty" and the lefty says "you're not one of us" that means I am probably just about right. No pun intended.

 

[Swammerdami]

What is 'Far Left'? The American (Conservative?) POV seems to include many that would be merely moderate leftist Centrists in other parts of the world.

America's political perceptions are a travesty. A right-wing talking point is that "America has the best health care in the world." It is true that we have the best hospitals and the best doctors . . . but also the worst outcomes in the developed world for infant mortality and life expectancy.

Even Thailand has free health care. "In 2016, Thailand became the first country in Asia to eliminate HIV transmission from mother to child, owing to its robust public healthcare system." Has the U.S.A. achieved that?

To listen to the babblings on FoxNews, you'd think Biden to be a communist. In fact he'd be right-of-center in any other Western country. Political labels are used ridiculously in the U.S.A. The following is only a SLIGHT exaggeration:

"Right-wingers wanted both Pence and Pelosi executed on Jan 6. Leftists wanted neither executed. Therefore a centrist — midway between left and right — wanted just one of the two killed."​

 

[SIB]

What is 'Far Left'? The American (Conservative?) POV seems to include many that would be merely moderate leftist Centrists in other parts of the world.

America's political perceptions are a travesty. A right-wing talking point is that "America has the best health care in the world." It is true that we have the best hospitals and the best doctors . . . but also the worst outcomes in the developed world for infant mortality and life expectancy.

Even Thailand has free health care. "In 2016, Thailand became the first country in Asia to eliminate HIV transmission from mother to child, owing to its robust public healthcare system." Has the U.S.A. achieved that?

To listen to the babblings on FoxNews, you'd think Biden to be a communist. In fact he'd be right-of-center in any other Western country. Political labels are used ridiculously in the U.S.A. The following is only a SLIGHT exaggeration:

"Right-wingers wanted both Pence and Pelosi executed on Jan 6. Leftists wanted neither executed. Therefore a centrist — midway between left and right — wanted just one of the two killed."​

Maybe planned? As in social engineering? If we talk about abortion to control population that sends us into a tizzy. Let it look "natural"? Or even an unintended outcome but they thought "Hey, check this out ..."

Yeah, key words "They thought about it ..." those words and our gov don't seem to work well together. "Loyalty" to me and mine is what they thought about.

 

[Tigers!]

"Right-wingers wanted both Pence and Pelosi executed on Jan 6. Leftists wanted neither executed. Therefore a centrist — midway between left and right — wanted just one of the two killed."​

Which one was to be killed?

 

[TomC]

"Right-wingers wanted both Pence and Pelosi executed on Jan 6. Leftists wanted neither executed. Therefore a centrist — midway between left and right — wanted just one of the two killed."​

Which one was to be killed?

That's not really the point.

I despise Pence for a raft of reasons, going back way before he was VP. I was still horrified by Trump's scaffold on the Capitol steps.
Tom