The two groups are not incompatible, thus you can't use the membership in one to disprove membership in the other..
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Merci Mack, a Black woman killed in Dallas, is 18th transgender death this year
- Thread starter Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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The two groups are not incompatible, thus you can't use the membership in one to disprove membership in the other..
Refuse to respond? Non. I've been pointing out time and again that black men kill transwomen at a higher rate than white men do, so there is a particular problem with black men.
Of course, if you don't accept that there is a particular problem with black men killing transwomen because we don't have particular statistics from the FBI by transgender status of murder victim, then you must also accept that you don't know if it's men killing transwomen at all.
Actually, I've changed my mind now. You see, we don't have crime statistics by trans status of murder victim. So we don't know if it's men killing transwomen at all.
And without the specific statistics about transgender victims, it would be illogical and unevidenced to accept that the murder of transwomen is being perpetrated mainly by men. You've said so yourself.
Toni
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I don't believe I've blamed all men or any man for the murder of Merci Mack Richey.
I've said that we don't know who killed her (before you gave us this link, of course) and that an actual investigation needed to be done to determine who was responsible for her death, just as with any other murder.
Toni
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Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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No you've been claiming it's blackness. You got serious problems.
Don2, you are incapable of accepting the logic, so I can hardly believe a further explanation will help, but I'll try anyway.
If you reject that black men have a particular problem with killing transwomen, then you must also reject that men have a particular problem with killing transwomen. This is not because the two things must be simultaneously true, but because you accept the FBI data showing men are the most likely killers in intraracial killings, yet you reject the same data that shows black people are more likely to kill people. I assume you do not reject the narrative that black transwomen are more likely than other transwomen to be murdered. If you rejected the idea that black transwomen are more likely to be murdered than other transwomen, then it would be valid to say black men don't have a particular problem with it, but men in general do.
Now, here's my take. I accept that men are killing these transwomen. And, for the same reasons that I accept that men (versus women) are killing these transwomen, I must also accept that black men have a particular problem with killing transwomen compared to white men.
Now, whether and what can be done about this depends on the particular causes. When feminists blame men in general for the actions of some men, feminists have no problem demanding behavioural change from all men. For example, feminists demand that men call out other men for telling sexist jokes. As it is, I reject that the behaviour of some people in a group should obligate the other people in that group to alter their behaviour in some specific way. So, even if black men have a particular problem with murdering transwomen compared to white men, I don't think it obligates the entire black community to change its behaviour.
Now, the reasons that black men are more likely to kill transwomen than white men are could be due to the same kind of psychological variables present in both communities, which would not in itself call for a race-specific strategy. For example, I believe some transwomen are murdered (like Merci Mack) because their straight male partners are afraid of being found out socially (as dating/having sex with a transwoman) or the straight male partners were not aware of the trans status of their partner, and feel tricked and betrayed. Perhaps the stigma of dating a transwoman is present in both black and white communities, but the stigma is higher in black communities. So, what can be done about the stigma? The answer will help all transwomen but especially black transwomen.
repoman
Contributor
No, help black men become more resilient to insults to their self image or how others evaluate them.
Are black guys less successful and more stressed, giving them less slack for dealing with a shock to their ego or social position?
"Haha, you fucked a tranny! Did you take it or give it?" Is aconversation some men, especially with lower status (on not on the leading edge of cultual change) peers may have.
Are black guys less successful and more stressed, giving them less slack for dealing with a shock to their ego or social position?
"Haha, you fucked a tranny! Did you take it or give it?" Is aconversation some men, especially with lower status (on not on the leading edge of cultual change) peers may have.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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I am not bothering reading a rehash of your point. I already provided a rebuttal. So, if you are not going to respond to the content of that rebuttal, it makes no sense for me to read your post. If you want me to read your post, then you need to engage in understanding the flaws of your points already rebutted. Thank you.
laughing dog
Contributor
What on earth are you talking about? No one was doing any such thing.
I know you imagine yourself to have provided a rebuttal (where?), but you haven't.
If you think the male community needs to work on itself because men are responsible for a disproportionate share of killing compared to women, then for the exact same reason, the black community needs to work on itself because black people are responsible for a disproportionate share of killing compared to nonblack people.
If you are incapable of understanding why that is so, then I can only say your own prejudice or lack of intelligence is responsible.
Don2 implied it when he named 'men' as the group that needed to work on itself. He appears to believe that having identified one group of people (men) who kill disproportionately, then there's nothing else to look at. Of course, black people also kill disproportionately, so Don2 is wrong.
Indeed, you can add as many dimensions as is relevant. If younger people are disproportionately more likely to kill, then you can look at the youth community and what is going on there.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
A disparate number of transgender murder victims in the US are black.
Metaphor alleges a disparate number of their murderers are black.* Let's assume that's true for purposes of discussion.
The vast majority of women who are murdered are murdered by an ex or current intimate partner. Most relationships in the US are not interracial. For example, marriages are only 4% interracial in the US.
Also, studies show that income inequality is the most tightly associated variable to homicide. This statistic is true worldwide, not only in the US. Guess which statistic isn't true worldwide? (Hint: that blacks murder most trans women).
Guess what else? Specifically in the US, there are more homicides among African Americans where income inequality is higher than African Americans where inequality is lower...and the same is true across race/ethnicities in the US:
Transgender women are 4 times more likely to be poor.
However, women of color are even more likely to be poor. So, black trans women are way more likely to live in high homicide risk environments...with higher probability of partner who could murder. Black trans women also far more resort to sex work for employment due to discrimination, which also increases chances of homicidal environment.
No, this doesn't mean poor people own transphobia. The vast majority are not transphobic.
Interestingly, among people in pockets of income inequality, there are higher incidence of perception of disrespect, leading to homicide...looking at someone the wrong way...stepping on someone's shoes...whatever...again, the vast majority do not respond with murder, but there is a higher probability of it.
Why is this? Poorer people can rely less on wealth or assets to convey their confidence? So it's about reputation more. Or something else such as vastly more likely to have poorer mental health, coping skills, and medication for mental health?
As cited in previous post, out of countries where trans women homicides are tracked, Brazil has the most. Not the US. Probably, countries in the Middle East are even higher but numbers may be difficult to derive: people will not out themselves to everyone. They may be considered homosexual which is often illegal.
In this post, I have entertained Metaphor's allegation that the vast majority of murderers are black, but showed that these murders are likely not about "blackness" but more associated instead to income inequality.
* The truth is we do not know the identities of the killers in most cases. For example, in Brazil, something like 150 trans women are killed in a year. The vast majority are also black, but suspects are only identified in 8% of cases. The vast majority of victims are also young. Homicides are very high in Brazil. So is income inequality (ranked 8th highest gini coefficient in the world). Many people in Brazil shout "Bolsonaro" when they commit murder.
Metaphor alleges a disparate number of their murderers are black.* Let's assume that's true for purposes of discussion.
The vast majority of women who are murdered are murdered by an ex or current intimate partner. Most relationships in the US are not interracial. For example, marriages are only 4% interracial in the US.
Also, studies show that income inequality is the most tightly associated variable to homicide. This statistic is true worldwide, not only in the US. Guess which statistic isn't true worldwide? (Hint: that blacks murder most trans women).
Guess what else? Specifically in the US, there are more homicides among African Americans where income inequality is higher than African Americans where inequality is lower...and the same is true across race/ethnicities in the US:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190221110500.htm
Transgender women are 4 times more likely to be poor.
However, women of color are even more likely to be poor. So, black trans women are way more likely to live in high homicide risk environments...with higher probability of partner who could murder. Black trans women also far more resort to sex work for employment due to discrimination, which also increases chances of homicidal environment.
No, this doesn't mean poor people own transphobia. The vast majority are not transphobic.
Interestingly, among people in pockets of income inequality, there are higher incidence of perception of disrespect, leading to homicide...looking at someone the wrong way...stepping on someone's shoes...whatever...again, the vast majority do not respond with murder, but there is a higher probability of it.
Why is this? Poorer people can rely less on wealth or assets to convey their confidence? So it's about reputation more. Or something else such as vastly more likely to have poorer mental health, coping skills, and medication for mental health?
As cited in previous post, out of countries where trans women homicides are tracked, Brazil has the most. Not the US. Probably, countries in the Middle East are even higher but numbers may be difficult to derive: people will not out themselves to everyone. They may be considered homosexual which is often illegal.
In this post, I have entertained Metaphor's allegation that the vast majority of murderers are black, but showed that these murders are likely not about "blackness" but more associated instead to income inequality.
* The truth is we do not know the identities of the killers in most cases. For example, in Brazil, something like 150 trans women are killed in a year. The vast majority are also black, but suspects are only identified in 8% of cases. The vast majority of victims are also young. Homicides are very high in Brazil. So is income inequality (ranked 8th highest gini coefficient in the world). Many people in Brazil shout "Bolsonaro" when they commit murder.
If you are willing to use the statistics to assume most murderers are male, and the same statistics to assume most murders are intraracial, you have no justification for not accepting that most murdered black transwomen were murdered by black men.
I did not say that blacks murder most transwomen. I didn't say anything like that. I said black transwomen are more likely to be murdered than other transwomen (which everybody accepts as true), and that the people murdering these black transwomen are mostly black men.
Of course, you've shown no such thing. You've speculated that all of the variability in trans murders that take place in black communities is attributable to 'poverty' and 'income inequality'. I think that's incorrect, because the black community is known to be higher in homophobia than nonblack communities (black people were more likely to oppose the introduction of same sex marriage than white people). I think some men kill their trans partners because of 'exposure' panic related to their own as well as societal homophobia.
repoman
Contributor
How does poverty affect male pride and machismo?
This measuring of violence as a proxy for levels of dislike for the group being killed is similar in my mind to evaporation of a liquid.
The activation energy to have a liquid molecule break free is roughly independent of temperature, but the average energies go up with temp and the highest energies go up fast with temp.
Sort of like a person with poverty, family structure, employment, social network safety net issues can have some high energy rage in his system not far below the activation energy.
So all the people with more relaxed lives may be just as judgmental on average as the guy who snaps and kills a transwoman.
This measuring of violence as a proxy for levels of dislike for the group being killed is similar in my mind to evaporation of a liquid.
The activation energy to have a liquid molecule break free is roughly independent of temperature, but the average energies go up with temp and the highest energies go up fast with temp.
Sort of like a person with poverty, family structure, employment, social network safety net issues can have some high energy rage in his system not far below the activation energy.
So all the people with more relaxed lives may be just as judgmental on average as the guy who snaps and kills a transwoman.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
1. Homicides are mostly committed by men.
2. Homicide risk is associated to income inequality, world-wide, across and within race.
3. Homophobia is worst at lowest socio-economic level.
BUT the idea that homophobia or transphobia are at play is contrary to the statistic that most homicides of women are caused by a current or ex intimate partner. The few cases I have looked at may have been boyfriends with mental health issues.
Where's the data?
2. Homicide risk is associated to income inequality, world-wide, across and within race.
3. Homophobia is worst at lowest socio-economic level.
BUT the idea that homophobia or transphobia are at play is contrary to the statistic that most homicides of women are caused by a current or ex intimate partner. The few cases I have looked at may have been boyfriends with mental health issues.
Where's the data?
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
Homophobia is worst at lowest socio-economic level.
I have successfully shown how you keep assuming blackness because I have demonstrated alternatives at all levels.
You don't even have data on the murderers yet you keep repeating your ideological mantra.
Even an admitted Stormfront white supremacist is writing about economics and proximity. Can't you at least try as hard as him?
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
I don't completely disagree. Income inequality IS related to having reputation of your person, not stable long term career or assets...the perceptions of you may be all you own.
I do think you ought to consider other risk factors...such as untreated mental health problems at higher incidence among poor and more homophobia and transphobia among poor.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
You're arguing that the problem is a male problem but this in no way rebuts the notion that it's a black problem. It might be a black male problem.