Merci Mack, a Black woman killed in Dallas, is 18th transgender death this year

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What on earth are you talking about? No one was doing any such thing.

You're arguing that the problem is a male problem but this in no way rebuts the notion that it's a black problem. It might be a black male problem.

It's not because there are non-blacks that kill transgender women, too. We don't even know how many. But imagine you solve the male problem with the male community. Then, guess what? You've solved the alleged black male problem, too. So focusing on blackness is both insufficient and redundant at a minimum. Now, I've also shown this may not even be race anyway but instead economics. So in addition to being insufficient and redundant, it may also be wrong-headed.

Let's agree to this.

• Educating against homophobia and transphobia across the board is helpful.
• Reducing economic inequality is also helpful to reduce all homicides, not just trans women homicides.
• Improving healthcare by increasing access and quality across the board reduces the problem.
• Removing barriers and discrimination against trans women also reduces the problem so that they are not ending up in high risk situations. That includes stopping promoting a hierarchy where trans women are at the bottom, calling them mentally ill and mocking them and their identities.
• Educating against conservative and fundamentalist religions as well as keeping separation of church and state and promoting secularism is also very helpful to vulnerable persons.

Can we agree?

 

[repoman]

Don't set current/recent attitudes about transgenderism as proof that religious people are stupid and bigoted. Many are bigoted on this topic because of their religious training, but as the zeitgeist shifts they will drop it and pretend they never were. Painting all religious as trans haters will slow their change of heart.

This is different than concern about transwomen in women's sports or worry from a parent about a trans leaning child.

So, carrot or stick at the right time for the right person.

More closely hewing to street epistemology than being polemical.

 

[laughing dog]

What on earth are you talking about? No one was doing any such thing.

You're arguing that the problem is a male problem but this in no way rebuts the notion that it's a black problem. It might be a black male problem.

No, I was arguing that it is clearly a man problem using Metaphor's "logic". Which means if men address the issue, then clearly black men are also addressing the issue a well.

 

[Metaphor]

It's not because there are non-blacks that kill transgender women, too. We don't even know how many. But imagine you solve the male problem with the male community. Then, guess what? You've solved the alleged black male problem, too.

It's not alleged. Black men are killing black transwomen at a far higher rate than white men are killing transwomen.

So focusing on blackness is both insufficient and redundant at a minimum.

No: it is insufficient; it is not redundant. Focusing on maleness is also insufficient, because some of these murders may have been perpetrated by women.

 

[Metaphor]

What on earth are you talking about? No one was doing any such thing.

You're arguing that the problem is a male problem but this in no way rebuts the notion that it's a black problem. It might be a black male problem.

No, I was arguing that it is clearly a man problem using Metaphor's "logic". Which means if men address the issue, then clearly black men are also addressing the issue a well.

It is a male problem and a black problem (and probably a youth problem). One does not address or exclude the other.

How did we decide that it was a male problem? Because men are disproportionately more likely to kill.

Yet blacks are also disproportionately more likely to kill. Indeed, it seems like black men are three times as likely to kill a transwoman as men of other races.

The strategies that work to reduce the violence of men might differ in effectiveness between black and white communities. Let's say you have an enormously successful strategy targeted at men that halved the murder rate across all races of transwomen. You'd still have black transwomen murdered at a far higher rate than nonblack transwomen.

Let's say part of the attitude problem is homophobia. "Anti-homophobia" messaging will work in both communities, but if you do not acknowledge differences between black and white communities, your targeting will not be as effective. For example, in a 'talking heads' style commercial to reduce homophobia, black men will respond better to antihomophobic messaging coming from black people (and vice versa with white people).

But, if you are not actually interested in protecting black transwomen, then go ahead and deny that there is an especially acute problem with black men killing black transwomen.

 

[Mumbles]

A few months ago Andy Ngo did a twitter thread on the black trans women that were killed, I am not sure how comprehensive it was, but they were involved with prostitution and drug addicts.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1144149578842697729

So, black transwomen being shunted disproportionately to this shitty lifestyle is the root cause.

Transwomen probably have shittier jobs, more easily fired, and have less desirable and stable guys willing to date them. FInally, guys who have sex with them must be a bit paranoid about it being known - especially guys in the crappy lower unstable segment of society.

But they are not being hunted down by strangers.

Frankly, given his long history of working with white nationalists and manipulating video, I wouldn't trust Andy Ngo very far at all as far as I could spit. Yes, It's almost certainly true that, like everyone else, black trans people tend to know their murderers.

Black trans women, in particular, face a nasty mix of lack of wealth and thus support, conservative evangelical bias, violence cause by toxic masculinity, and overall hatred of trans women in the US. In other words, everything that holds black people back, *and* everything that holds trans people back.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

No, I was arguing that it is clearly a man problem using Metaphor's "logic". Which means if men address the issue, then clearly black men are also addressing the issue a well.

It is a male problem and a black problem (and probably a youth problem). One does not address or exclude the other.

How did we decide that it was a male problem? Because men are disproportionately more likely to kill.

Yet blacks are also disproportionately more likely to kill. Indeed, it seems like black men are three times as likely to kill a transwoman as men of other races.

The strategies that work to reduce the violence of men might differ in effectiveness between black and white communities. Let's say you have an enormously successful strategy targeted at men that halved the murder rate across all races of transwomen. You'd still have black transwomen murdered at a far higher rate than nonblack transwomen.

Let's say part of the attitude problem is homophobia. "Anti-homophobia" messaging will work in both communities, but if you do not acknowledge differences between black and white communities, your targeting will not be as effective. For example, in a 'talking heads' style commercial to reduce homophobia, black men will respond better to antihomophobic messaging coming from black people (and vice versa with white people).

But, if you are not actually interested in protecting black transwomen, then go ahead and deny that there is an especially acute problem with black men killing black transwomen.

Just because it may or may not be a good idea to have commercials that target different groups in different ways does not mean that the root cause of the problem is blackness or that it's a problem that is an inherent characteristic of the black community.

So, no.

I've have already shown that homicides are correlated to economic inequality. You asked what is different about the black community and why so many blacks might commit more murders of trans women. I gave you an answer. The answer is a thing that is correlated to blacks, i.e. lesser economic equality. But it's also about the victims who end up in the situations, not merely the victimizers, also lesser equality means more blacks end up as victims. And proximity and implicit racial segregation and lack of interracial relations also means higher risk of black violence against other blacks. So you seem to have confused causation with correlation.

Now, you are talking consequents that while may be true or not have no bearing on what you said before about the cause of the problem.

AND you are being reactionary in your approach by suggesting an education campaign which is not only inadequate, it doesn't structurally change anything.

You need to deal with income inequality.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It's not because there are non-blacks that kill transgender women, too. We don't even know how many. But imagine you solve the male problem with the male community. Then, guess what? You've solved the alleged black male problem, too.

It's not alleged. Black men are killing black transwomen at a far higher rate than white men are killing transwomen.

So focusing on blackness is both insufficient and redundant at a minimum.

No: it is insufficient; it is not redundant. Focusing on maleness is also insufficient, because some of these murders may have been perpetrated by women.

I didn't say to focus on maleness exclusively.

What I did say was to reduce economic inequality among quite a few other bullets. For some unknown reason you chose to snip those items when responding to me.

Here were the bullet points:

• Educating against homophobia and transphobia across the board is helpful.
• Reducing economic inequality is also helpful to reduce all homicides, not just trans women homicides.
• Improving healthcare by increasing access and quality across the board reduces the problem.
• Removing barriers and discrimination against trans women also reduces the problem so that they are not ending up in high risk situations. That includes stopping promoting a hierarchy where trans women are at the bottom, calling them mentally ill and mocking them and their identities.
• Educating against conservative and fundamentalist religions as well as keeping separation of church and state and promoting secularism is also very helpful to vulnerable persons.

Your strategy so far is you want to have white commercials and black commercials. Because. Blackness.

 

[Metaphor]

No, I was arguing that it is clearly a man problem using Metaphor's "logic". Which means if men address the issue, then clearly black men are also addressing the issue a well.

It is a male problem and a black problem (and probably a youth problem). One does not address or exclude the other.

How did we decide that it was a male problem? Because men are disproportionately more likely to kill.

Yet blacks are also disproportionately more likely to kill. Indeed, it seems like black men are three times as likely to kill a transwoman as men of other races.

The strategies that work to reduce the violence of men might differ in effectiveness between black and white communities. Let's say you have an enormously successful strategy targeted at men that halved the murder rate across all races of transwomen. You'd still have black transwomen murdered at a far higher rate than nonblack transwomen.

Let's say part of the attitude problem is homophobia. "Anti-homophobia" messaging will work in both communities, but if you do not acknowledge differences between black and white communities, your targeting will not be as effective. For example, in a 'talking heads' style commercial to reduce homophobia, black men will respond better to antihomophobic messaging coming from black people (and vice versa with white people).

But, if you are not actually interested in protecting black transwomen, then go ahead and deny that there is an especially acute problem with black men killing black transwomen.

Just because it may or may not be a good idea to have commercials that target different groups in different ways does not mean that the root cause of the problem is blackness or that it's a problem that is an inherent characteristic of the black community.

So, no.

I've have already shown that homicides are correlated to economic inequality. You asked what is different about the black community and why so many blacks might commit more murders of trans women. I gave you an answer. The answer is a thing that is correlated to blacks, i.e. lesser economic equality. But it's also about the victims who end up in the situations, not merely the victimizers, also lesser equality means more blacks end up as victims. And proximity and implicit racial segregation and lack of interracial relations also means higher risk of black violence against other blacks. So you seem to have confused causation with correlation.

Now, you are talking consequents that while may be true or not have no bearing on what you said before about the cause of the problem.

AND you are being reactionary in your approach by suggesting an education campaign which is not only inadequate, it doesn't structurally change anything.

You need to deal with income inequality.

No. You speculated that income inequality causes anti-trans violence, and then you are the one who accused me of confusing correlation with causation!

Of course, for "income inequality" to be the "explanatory" variable in black-white differences, we might expect that in similarly poor black or white communities, anti-trans violence would be equal. Do you have evidence of that?

 

[Metaphor]

I didn't say to focus on maleness exclusively.

Well, you excluded any focus on blackness. Because.

Your strategy so far is you want to have white commercials and black commercials. Because. Blackness.

That isn't even my strategy. All I've argued is that if you think maleness is a problem, so is blackness. Both stand out because both communities are relatively more likely to kill transwomen.