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Metamodernism

Here's another example of metamodernism. Patriotic immigrants. Loads of immigrants have duel nationalities and duel loyalties. I know lots of people who are able to enthusiastically wave their flag with a swell of passion with total sincerity. But it's different flags in different contexts.

The famous Swedish comedian Soran Ismail has talked about this at length. He both identifies with being Swedish and Kurdish. He's very patriotic for both.

For the modernism mindset this would be a problem. Since we only have one true nature and identity. Metamodernists can have a whole box full.

Another example. I have duel identities. Or more. I'm one person at work. I'm another around friends. Another when I'm having sex.
 
Personally, I've always thought that most believers were only pretend ones. Many if not most people join religious congregations not because they approve of the religion but because they feel better inside a congregation. It's really like animals keeping close to each other in big herds to limit the risk to themselves of being grabbed by a predator.

We already know that people are much more likely to become Muslim if people close to them are Muslims themselves and Christians if people close to them are Christian themselves, so the specific religion doesn't matter much.

The common factor is the congregation. People join congregations because we're a gregarious lot.

If so, then, don't expect people to admit to it.

Real believers can only be a small minority.
EB

I'm inclined to agree. It's just surprising how few people admit it, and I wonder what the motivation is behind refusing to admit it. Is there some fear that they are the only ones pretending? A fear that saying it out loud will spoil the illusion?
I suspect that most people instinctively feel that they have to play the part, even to the extent that they nearly fool themselves.

Or it's because most people are much less rational than we think.

Or it may be self-protection, which would be a rational attitude if you consider the long litany of massacres throughout human history.
EB
 
Metamodernism is a way for skeptics/atheists to have their cake and eat it to. I like cake. So I'm all for it.

Yes, but there are many different ways you can carve this cake.
EB
 
Metamodernism is a way for skeptics/atheists to have their cake and eat it to. I like cake. So I'm all for it.

Yes, but there are many different ways you can carve this cake.
EB

Yes. Which is what the metamodern mindset allows. It rejects just one way to look at the world. It accepts that we can only see the world in the form of various metaphors. That's it's fucking impossible to use a word that perfectly captures what we're feeling (or mean) in every nuance. It acknowledges that our understanding and description of the world is at best quite blunt. That's why we can have the cake and eat it to.

Sure, God doesn't really exist. But believing that it does, in some way, unlocks access to a bunch of feelings, we otherwise wouldn't have access to. So we chose to believe in God in some ways, while we also believe that God doesn't exist in an other way. We just make sure that when we do believe in God, we keep it as far away from our scientific beliefs as possible, ie don't do science at the same time.
 
Here's another example of metamodernism. Patriotic immigrants. Loads of immigrants have duel nationalities and duel loyalties. I know lots of people who are able to enthusiastically wave their flag with a swell of passion with total sincerity. But it's different flags in different contexts.

The famous Swedish comedian Soran Ismail has talked about this at length. He both identifies with being Swedish and Kurdish. He's very patriotic for both.

For the modernism mindset this would be a problem. Since we only have one true nature and identity. Metamodernists can have a whole box full.

Another example. I have duel identities. Or more. I'm one person at work. I'm another around friends. Another when I'm having sex.

Are you really a different person around different people, or are you just one person with contextual behaviors?
 
Here's another example of metamodernism. Patriotic immigrants. Loads of immigrants have duel nationalities and duel loyalties. I know lots of people who are able to enthusiastically wave their flag with a swell of passion with total sincerity. But it's different flags in different contexts.

The famous Swedish comedian Soran Ismail has talked about this at length. He both identifies with being Swedish and Kurdish. He's very patriotic for both.

For the modernism mindset this would be a problem. Since we only have one true nature and identity. Metamodernists can have a whole box full.

Another example. I have duel identities. Or more. I'm one person at work. I'm another around friends. Another when I'm having sex.

Are you really a different person around different people, or are you just one person with contextual behaviors?

Identity is an heuristic, and so your question doesn't apply. There's no such thing as identity in reality; the materials that comprise your body at any given time are constantly being exchanged with your environment, and all that persists is a pattern - which is itself a dynamic entity whose form varies dramatically over time.

Dr Z is not only a different person in different situations; he is a different person at different times even if all other circumstances were unchanged. And it is equally (in)valid to describe him as 'a different person' or as 'the same person with contextual behaviours' - which you choose depends only on what you are seeking to explain.

But whichever you choose is a flawed 'rough and ready' characterisation of the complex underlying reality, and will inevitably be misleading to both yourself and your audience.

Both are true, for a given value of 'true'; neither is really true.
 
Meta modernism is essentially the second reboot of Marxism. As soon as a few get wise we'll see the emergence of Post metamodernism or some such.
 
Meta modernism is essentially the second reboot of Marxism. As soon as a few get wise we'll see the emergence of Post metamodernism or some such.

Let's start a new fad right now. Together we can do it! Let's pull together (for once)!
EB
 
Here's another example of metamodernism. Patriotic immigrants. Loads of immigrants have duel nationalities and duel loyalties. I know lots of people who are able to enthusiastically wave their flag with a swell of passion with total sincerity. But it's different flags in different contexts.

The famous Swedish comedian Soran Ismail has talked about this at length. He both identifies with being Swedish and Kurdish. He's very patriotic for both.

For the modernism mindset this would be a problem. Since we only have one true nature and identity. Metamodernists can have a whole box full.

Another example. I have duel identities. Or more. I'm one person at work. I'm another around friends. Another when I'm having sex.

Are you really a different person around different people, or are you just one person with contextual behaviors?

Bilby nailed it. Saved me the effort. Your actions define you. Not your idealised image of yourself or your hopes of who you want to be. If you behave differently in different contexts the contexts are part of you and your identity/ies.
 
Meta modernism is essentially the second reboot of Marxism. As soon as a few get wise we'll see the emergence of Post metamodernism or some such.

I don't think it's helpful to call it Marxism, or even to think of it in those terms. Do you mean that metamodernism is the reaction to liberal individualism (the dominant paradigm)? I think it is as well. But there's a major and critical difference. I'm using the term "Marxism" in the sense that USSR and 20'th century communists used it. Not the liberal arts academic use of Marxism (which was different).

Marxism and collectivism aimed at replacing the the individual with the collective. The idea was to create a kind of super individual. A collective with one will and one voice. So individualism had to be subjugated.

While metamodernists are more collectivist. They're not placing the collective above the individual. Metamodern collectivism is more an acknowledgement that humans are inherently collectivist. We are always a part of collectives. They shape us, form us and define who we are. It's an acknowledgement that claiming that we able to rise above the influence of others is just childish.

I think the South East African philosophy of Ubuntu catches what I mean very well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)

You don't know who you are until you see the effect of your actions on other people. You and your identity is made by other people...and you make them. Your view of yourself will change depending on how your actions affect other people. If you are moved to a new context your sense of self and identity will probably change.

It might be good to delve a bit into history of philosophy. Liberal individualism is what Marx reacted against. But it was different from today. It was 19'th century romantic ideals holding up the lone genius, artist, scientist or political leader, who by sheer force of character, rises above any influence and shapes history. We are all either a leader or a follower. Hegel put geniuses in front of each ideological movement. His thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Napoleon can be seen as a good example of this (or Hitler or Churchill). What Marx did was to keep the model but just remove the genius. No, it's not geniuses who shape history. It's other stuff. Money, technology, lack of security, mass hysterias, rumours and so on. He made Napoleon as just an opportunist. Napoleon didn't make Napoleon. His context did. Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.

Marx wasn't inherently collectivist. He was too early a thinker. His view of the collective was more Rousseauist. You could say that Marx himself wasn't Marxist (using the term define at the begining of this post). Marx believed that with the removal of power structures we'd return to some unspoiled pristine state of pure goodness and kindness.

Marxist/fascist collectivist theory were shaped by, now largely forgotten philosophers, like Sorel, Barres, Herder, Haeckel, Herbert Spenser and so on. I think Charles Darwin was a bigger influence on these people than Marx. The ideas of social Darwinism in particular. These saw history as the war between collectives. The more organised and singular in their goals, the more successful will the collective be.

The current paradigm, liberal individualism. Is a reaction to this. But they replaced the lone genius with, (the nebulous concept) everybody's equal value. And that if we only give people equal opportunities they will shape their life in whatever way makes them flourish the most. People are different and we just need to get out of people's way and let them explore themselves and their world freely. The less we try to shape and control people the better. Instead we "educate". Within this paradigm telling anybody what to do is pure evil.

Note, I now risk putting words in the mouth of Metamodernists, and conflate their ideas with mine. I apologise if I give that impression and are trying not to. My interpretation of metamodernists is that they agree with that we're usually better off just getting out of people's way and let them shape their lives as freely as they can. They just question if it's possible to shape it freely.

They also reject the idea of everybody's equal value. If you're lost in the middle of nowhere without reception, a passing taxi is more valuable to you than anything else. Unless you haven't got any money. In which case just a car driven by someone friendly is worth more to you. Or if you are bleeding to death an ambulance. Your changing needs will lead you to value other people differently. It's not an inherently elitist view. It just questions the vapid claim that all people have equal value. We clearly don't have equal value. There is no inherent worth in human life that we don't give it. And we have never behaved as if we thought every human life is equally valuable. We all treat our friends better than non-friends.

Our human value is based on our context/collective and our capacity to figure out a way to be useful to that context/collective. In that way metamodernism is collectivist. But one huge difference is that the Marxist or fascist collective is something you are born to, or something inevitable or essential. It's also singular/monolithic, and your only choices are to be "with us or against us". This type of collective justifies force if you aren't part of it.

The metamodern collective is more free flowing. Collectives aren't eternal. They spontaneously emerge and disapear in the meetings of people. Collectives only stick around if they are continually useful to the individuals it comprises. While you are part of a collective your feelings, thoughts and emotions are still just stuck inside an individual. Those will be paramount to you. If a collective isn't working out for you, then you pick another. Also, we don't have to make an effort to form a collective, and we don't need a committee to figure out the will of the collective. Collectives form spontaneously and their borders are amorphous. A collective is whatever it's members do.

A good example I think is Christianity. Christianity is one collective of sorts. There's loads of denominations. Those are all collectives. Not necessarily in conflict with other Christian denominations. Then there's your local church. Your group of friends within the church. Even if you never go to church, if you are a Christian you are in some way part of the Christian collective, just based on interactions with people around you. Chritstian and non-Christian. Your sense of belonging to the Christian church will shape your behaviour in some way.

I think metamodernists maintain that the idea of people as being a detached sea of liberal individuals rationally picking and choosing what suits them best, is a lie. This forum isn't a collection of free individuals posting. This forum is a collective where our actions are shaped by how our posts are read, received and responded to. If we wouldn't get the responses we need, we would leave and find another forum, or another way to nurture our needs.
 
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What Marx did was to keep the model but just remove the genius. No, it's not geniuses who shape history. It's other stuff. Money, technology, lack of security, mass hysterias, rumours and so on. He made Napoleon as just an opportunist. Napoleon didn't make Napoleon. His context did. Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.

Sorry, I'm very ignorant as to Marx but I'm sure it must have been clear to him that not anybody would have turned out similar as Napoleon. I believe myself that very, very few people could have possibly turned out similar in the circumstances and Marx would have been aware of that too.

Each individual contributes something potentially different to groups so the "context" can't possibly be thought of as the key to explain what goes on in human societies. Or else how could we account for change in social relations and structures? History? And I believe Marx was particularly keen on history.

Ah, at least I found something to disagree on.
EB
 
What Marx did was to keep the model but just remove the genius. No, it's not geniuses who shape history. It's other stuff. Money, technology, lack of security, mass hysterias, rumours and so on. He made Napoleon as just an opportunist. Napoleon didn't make Napoleon. His context did. Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.

Sorry, I'm very ignorant as to Marx but I'm sure it must have been clear to him that not anybody would have turned out similar as Napoleon. I believe myself that very, very few people could have possibly turned out similar in the circumstances and Marx would have been aware of that too.

Marxist historiography is called "historical materialism". After Marxist theory came it completely took over how we interpret history. Today we just call it history. Earlier history we call "great man theory of history"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism

More people should read Marx. He was a brilliant thinker. It's so common to forget just how early he was. The Communist Manifesto came out in 1848. That was not that long after the fall of Napoleon. It was ages ago. He's gotten a bad reputation for his association with Communist totalitarianism. If he'd seen what the USSR and China became he may have written those a bit differently.

Each individual contributes something potentially different to groups so the "context" can't possibly be thought of as the key to explain what goes on in human societies. Or else how could we account for change in social relations and structures? History? And I believe Marx was particularly keen on history.

Ah, at least I found something to disagree on.
EB

Napoleon was a brilliant general. But the weapon by which he conquered Europe was with Enlightenment ideals, which made enemy populations less willing to fight the French armies. They were in many cases seen as liberators. He also conquered Europe with a new view of science. He was fighting enemies who upheld traditions above all else. Because that was the only thing keeping them in power. They adapted to new times reluctantly. France, on the other hand, saw themselves as breaking with tradition. They saw themselves as scientific trailblazers. This allowed Napoleon to experiment with new scientific ideas. He didn't come up with any of the innovations France used. He just took over a country that already worshiped science. All good ideas migrated to the top. Napoleon used it. He didn't use the new invention of conscription because it was a great idea, but because if he hadn't France would have lost real fast.

Sure, if Napoleon would have been a traditionalist he would have snubbed the new fangled ideas. But if he'd been a traditionalist he would never have been allowed to become dictator. He was brilliant, aggressive and politically savvy. Again... if it hadn't been him it would have been somebody else with those qualities.

He didn't start any of the wars he fought. All his wars started out as defensive wars. So anybody else having taken power would have had to fight the same wars. He attacked where he attacked because that is where his enemies were the weakest. His enemies dictated where he would attack.

Napoleon became a dictator because he was asked to. The Directory was an incredibly ineffectual and corrupt government. Sooner or later it would have been overthrown. If not by Napoleon, then by somebody else. Napoleon was France's greatest war hero. But there would always have been a greatest war hero.

Somebody as aggressive and meteorically successful as Napoleon was bound to fail sooner or later. Whoever would have seized power in France it would very likely have had a similar trajectory.

Don't forget that Napoleon also grew to the challenge. He became what he needed to become. As would any leader in a pressed situation.

And don't take me for a fatalist. I don't believe in destiny. I believe there's a fuck tonne of random. At any of these battles Napoleon could have been hit by a stray bullet. He had several friends killed right next to him. That would have changed history. But in hindsight I think individuals are less important than the context they find themselves in.

A classic mistake CEO's of companies make is that they think a companies success it down to their genius. When in reality it's 99% luck. Of course, if they hadn't worked damn hard... that 1%... then they'd never been in a position to enjoy the fruit of that luck. So they have the helm of a successful company, and then move on to another company, do the same thing and it all goes to shit. The key to success in business has always been to be a player in an expanding market. Just to stay alive. If that market continues to expand you might get lucky and it explodes.
 
They also reject the idea of everybody's equal value. If you're lost in the middle of nowhere without reception, a passing taxi is more valuable to you than anything else. Unless you haven't got any money. In which case just a car driven by someone friendly is worth more to you. Or if you are bleeding to death an ambulance. Your changing needs will lead you to value other people differently. It's not an inherently elitist view. It just questions the vapid claim that all people have equal value. We clearly don't have equal value. There is no inherent worth in human life that we don't give it. And we have never behaved as if we thought every human life is equally valuable. We all treat our friends better than non-friends.

That is quite profound.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.
Sorry, I'm very ignorant as to Marx but I'm sure it must have been clear to him that not anybody would have turned out similar as Napoleon. I believe myself that very, very few people could have possibly turned out similar in the circumstances and Marx would have been aware of that too.

Each individual contributes something potentially different to groups so the "context" can't possibly be thought of as the key to explain what goes on in human societies. Or else how could we account for change in social relations and structures? History? And I believe Marx was particularly keen on history.

Ah, at least I found something to disagree on.
EB
<snip>

<snip> Napoleon became a dictator because he was asked to. The Directory was an incredibly ineffectual and corrupt government. Sooner or later it would have been overthrown. If not by Napoleon, then by somebody else.

<snip>

<snip> I think individuals are less important than the context they find themselves in.

<snip>

On the 18th of Brumaire 1799, General Bonaparte overthrew the Directory. It was a coup. Possibly somebody suggested it to him, although I doubt that very much, but in any case you can't say "he was asked to seize power". Other people would have done differently. Most would have declined to seize power. The few who would have tried would have failed. The fewer still who would have succeeded in seizing power would all have changed France's history each one in their own way.

Marx's own view, expressed in his book on the 18th of Brumaire, was that "people make their own history, but they do not make it however they want, not under self-selected circumstances, but out of the actual given and transmitted situation". So sure, the context is very important but only in that it restricts the range of options people can choose from but it's ridiculous to claim like you did that "anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices". No, much more likely, anybody in Bonaparte's situation would have fared very different even if the range of options available is necessarily limited by the context. However, it's combinatory. Once you've changed the situation a little bit you're also opening up new options and, over time, the initially limited range of options fast becomes a burgeoning forest of new options. Somewhat like the butterfly effect in chaotic systems. Someone else than Napoleon would have caused the world to be very different from what it is.

Anyway, there's no way to decide who is right, so you can keep your strange view without fear of being proved wrong. But I can at least claim on the basis of the quote above that Marx was on the same line as I am, at least on this narrow point.
EB
 
DrZoidberg said:
Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.
Sorry, I'm very ignorant as to Marx but I'm sure it must have been clear to him that not anybody would have turned out similar as Napoleon. I believe myself that very, very few people could have possibly turned out similar in the circumstances and Marx would have been aware of that too.

Each individual contributes something potentially different to groups so the "context" can't possibly be thought of as the key to explain what goes on in human societies. Or else how could we account for change in social relations and structures? History? And I believe Marx was particularly keen on history.

Ah, at least I found something to disagree on.
EB
<snip>

<snip> Napoleon became a dictator because he was asked to. The Directory was an incredibly ineffectual and corrupt government. Sooner or later it would have been overthrown. If not by Napoleon, then by somebody else.

<snip>

<snip> I think individuals are less important than the context they find themselves in.

<snip>

On the 18th of Brumaire 1799, General Bonaparte overthrew the Directory. It was a coup. Possibly somebody suggested it to him, although I doubt that very much, but in any case you can't say "he was asked to seize power". Other people would have done differently. Most would have declined to seize power. The few who would have tried would have failed. The fewer still who would have succeeded in seizing power would all have changed France's history each one in their own way.

Marx's own view, expressed in his book on the 18th of Brumaire, was that "people make their own history, but they do not make it however they want, not under self-selected circumstances, but out of the actual given and transmitted situation". So sure, the context is very important but only in that it restricts the range of options people can choose from but it's ridiculous to claim like you did that "anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices". No, much more likely, anybody in Bonaparte's situation would have fared very different even if the range of options available is necessarily limited by the context. However, it's combinatory. Once you've changed the situation a little bit you're also opening up new options and, over time, the initially limited range of options fast becomes a burgeoning forest of new options. Somewhat like the butterfly effect in chaotic systems. Someone else than Napoleon would have caused the world to be very different from what it is.

Anyway, there's no way to decide who is right, so you can keep your strange view without fear of being proved wrong. But I can at least claim on the basis of the quote above that Marx was on the same line as I am, at least on this narrow point.
EB

I don't think you understand the argument I'm making. The point is that there are many different roads that lead to the same end result. We have a tendency to think that the way it happened is the only way it could have happened.

I'm not saying that whoever toppled the Directory would have done exactly what Napoleon did. But it would have been a similar kind of person. And outcomes would have been similar.

The unification of Italy and Germany are two examples. Both came as a result of French occupation under Napoleon. Well... the mistake is to think without Napoleon it would never have happened. If it wasn't for Napoleon they would have found some other catalytic event. Both countries are stronger unified.

Same thing with the Nazis and the Holocaust. Antisemitism was strong all over Europe. Some country would have done It, ie gone too far. Which country is less interesting.
 
I don't think you understand the argument I'm making. The point is that there are many different roads that lead to the same end result. We have a tendency to think that the way it happened is the only way it could have happened.

I'm not saying that whoever toppled the Directory would have done exactly what Napoleon did. But it would have been a similar kind of person. And outcomes would have been similar.

The unification of Italy and Germany are two examples. Both came as a result of French occupation under Napoleon. Well... the mistake is to think without Napoleon it would never have happened. If it wasn't for Napoleon they would have found some other catalytic event. Both countries are stronger unified.

Same thing with the Nazis and the Holocaust. Antisemitism was strong all over Europe. Some country would have done It, ie gone too far. Which country is less interesting.


You said "would probably have turned out similar". This in itself much more than you could possibly know. You're entitled to believe it but keep in mind you have no rational justification for your belief and you certainly have provided none.

Maybe there are many roads leading to the same result but you don't actually know that there are many, many more roads leading to different, possibly very different results. And this seems fairly uncontroversial to me.

In any case, you've failed to provide any clinching argument and that's because this is not even possible in principle because we're unable to play counterfactual world histories to begin with. It's all wishful thinking on our part.

Your thinking is just very significantly more wishful than mine. :cool:
EB
 
I don't think you understand the argument I'm making. The point is that there are many different roads that lead to the same end result. We have a tendency to think that the way it happened is the only way it could have happened.

I'm not saying that whoever toppled the Directory would have done exactly what Napoleon did. But it would have been a similar kind of person. And outcomes would have been similar.

The unification of Italy and Germany are two examples. Both came as a result of French occupation under Napoleon. Well... the mistake is to think without Napoleon it would never have happened. If it wasn't for Napoleon they would have found some other catalytic event. Both countries are stronger unified.

Same thing with the Nazis and the Holocaust. Antisemitism was strong all over Europe. Some country would have done It, ie gone too far. Which country is less interesting.


You said "would probably have turned out similar". This in itself much more than you could possibly know. You're entitled to believe it but keep in mind you have no rational justification for your belief and you certainly have provided none.

Maybe there are many roads leading to the same result but you don't actually know that there are many, many more roads leading to different, possibly very different results. And this seems fairly uncontroversial to me.

In any case, you've failed to provide any clinching argument and that's because this is not even possible in principle because we're unable to play counterfactual world histories to begin with. It's all wishful thinking on our part.

Your thinking is just very significantly more wishful than mine. :cool:
EB

Fundamentally the argument is just that people respond to incentives. Modern economical theory is based on this. All government policies is based on accepting that this is true. Nah, the burden of proof is on you. Marx introduced this way of thinking about society and the economy.

Before this the idea was that things were stable until some great man came along and changed history to suit his ambition. I think that way harder to argue for.

We didn't buy iPhones because Steve Jobs talked us into it. We bought them because they answered to a need (or needs) in us.

So I think you agree with Marxist history theory, you just don't understand what the alternative theories are, because you've probably never been exposed to them. Almost nobody has today. Today we just think that Marxist historical theory is common sense.
 
Meta modernism is essentially the second reboot of Marxism. As soon as a few get wise we'll see the emergence of Post metamodernism or some such.

I don't think it's helpful to call it Marxism, or even to think of it in those terms. Do you mean that metamodernism is the reaction to liberal individualism (the dominant paradigm)? I think it is as well. But there's a major and critical difference. I'm using the term "Marxism" in the sense that USSR and 20'th century communists used it. Not the liberal arts academic use of Marxism (which was different).

Marxism and collectivism aimed at replacing the the individual with the collective. The idea was to create a kind of super individual. A collective with one will and one voice. So individualism had to be subjugated.

While metamodernists are more collectivist. They're not placing the collective above the individual. Metamodern collectivism is more an acknowledgement that humans are inherently collectivist. We are always a part of collectives. They shape us, form us and define who we are. It's an acknowledgement that claiming that we able to rise above the influence of others is just childish.

I think the South East African philosophy of Ubuntu catches what I mean very well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)

You don't know who you are until you see the effect of your actions on other people. You and your identity is made by other people...and you make them. Your view of yourself will change depending on how your actions affect other people. If you are moved to a new context your sense of self and identity will probably change.

It might be good to delve a bit into history of philosophy. Liberal individualism is what Marx reacted against. But it was different from today. It was 19'th century romantic ideals holding up the lone genius, artist, scientist or political leader, who by sheer force of character, rises above any influence and shapes history. We are all either a leader or a follower. Hegel put geniuses in front of each ideological movement. His thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Napoleon can be seen as a good example of this (or Hitler or Churchill). What Marx did was to keep the model but just remove the genius. No, it's not geniuses who shape history. It's other stuff. Money, technology, lack of security, mass hysterias, rumours and so on. He made Napoleon as just an opportunist. Napoleon didn't make Napoleon. His context did. Anybody in Napoleons situation and context would probably have turned out similar and made similar choices.

Marx wasn't inherently collectivist. He was too early a thinker. His view of the collective was more Rousseauist. You could say that Marx himself wasn't Marxist (using the term define at the begining of this post). Marx believed that with the removal of power structures we'd return to some unspoiled pristine state of pure goodness and kindness.

Marxist/fascist collectivist theory were shaped by, now largely forgotten philosophers, like Sorel, Barres, Herder, Haeckel, Herbert Spenser and so on. I think Charles Darwin was a bigger influence on these people than Marx. The ideas of social Darwinism in particular. These saw history as the war between collectives. The more organised and singular in their goals, the more successful will the collective be.

The current paradigm, liberal individualism. Is a reaction to this. But they replaced the lone genius with, (the nebulous concept) everybody's equal value. And that if we only give people equal opportunities they will shape their life in whatever way makes them flourish the most. People are different and we just need to get out of people's way and let them explore themselves and their world freely. The less we try to shape and control people the better. Instead we "educate". Within this paradigm telling anybody what to do is pure evil.

Note, I now risk putting words in the mouth of Metamodernists, and conflate their ideas with mine. I apologise if I give that impression and are trying not to. My interpretation of metamodernists is that they agree with that we're usually better off just getting out of people's way and let them shape their lives as freely as they can. They just question if it's possible to shape it freely.

They also reject the idea of everybody's equal value. If you're lost in the middle of nowhere without reception, a passing taxi is more valuable to you than anything else. Unless you haven't got any money. In which case just a car driven by someone friendly is worth more to you. Or if you are bleeding to death an ambulance. Your changing needs will lead you to value other people differently. It's not an inherently elitist view. It just questions the vapid claim that all people have equal value. We clearly don't have equal value. There is no inherent worth in human life that we don't give it. And we have never behaved as if we thought every human life is equally valuable. We all treat our friends better than non-friends.

Our human value is based on our context/collective and our capacity to figure out a way to be useful to that context/collective. In that way metamodernism is collectivist. But one huge difference is that the Marxist or fascist collective is something you are born to, or something inevitable or essential. It's also singular/monolithic, and your only choices are to be "with us or against us". This type of collective justifies force if you aren't part of it.

The metamodern collective is more free flowing. Collectives aren't eternal. They spontaneously emerge and disapear in the meetings of people. Collectives only stick around if they are continually useful to the individuals it comprises. While you are part of a collective your feelings, thoughts and emotions are still just stuck inside an individual. Those will be paramount to you. If a collective isn't working out for you, then you pick another. Also, we don't have to make an effort to form a collective, and we don't need a committee to figure out the will of the collective. Collectives form spontaneously and their borders are amorphous. A collective is whatever it's members do.

A good example I think is Christianity. Christianity is one collective of sorts. There's loads of denominations. Those are all collectives. Not necessarily in conflict with other Christian denominations. Then there's your local church. Your group of friends within the church. Even if you never go to church, if you are a Christian you are in some way part of the Christian collective, just based on interactions with people around you. Chritstian and non-Christian. Your sense of belonging to the Christian church will shape your behaviour in some way.

I think metamodernists maintain that the idea of people as being a detached sea of liberal individuals rationally picking and choosing what suits them best, is a lie. This forum isn't a collection of free individuals posting. This forum is a collective where our actions are shaped by how our posts are read, received and responded to. If we wouldn't get the responses we need, we would leave and find another forum, or another way to nurture our needs.



It seems to me that postmodernism got played out. There was nothing at the end of the road but a nihilistic pointlessness.

Metamodernists have adopted a sort of quantum reality where every reality is no more or less valid than any other reality. A tent so big that everyone can get under it. The ultimate collective. You like horizontal hierarchies? Vertical hierarchies? Come inside! There's room for both. Heck we even validate Diagonal, Clustered, Rotational and Random Walk hierarchies.

It brings to mind derivatives as a financial instrument. Nobody understands them or how they work but the US has $537 trillion worth.

Metamodernism atomizes both the collective and the individual. If every thing is no more or less valid than any other thing then everything becomes invalid except for power. In an infinite number of valid view points the one that's pointing a gun to your head becomes the most valid. Power justifies power.
 
You said "would probably have turned out similar". This in itself much more than you could possibly know. You're entitled to believe it but keep in mind you have no rational justification for your belief and you certainly have provided none.

Maybe there are many roads leading to the same result but you don't actually know that there are many, many more roads leading to different, possibly very different results. And this seems fairly uncontroversial to me.

In any case, you've failed to provide any clinching argument and that's because this is not even possible in principle because we're unable to play counterfactual world histories to begin with. It's all wishful thinking on our part.

Your thinking is just very significantly more wishful than mine. :cool:
EB

Fundamentally the argument is just that people respond to incentives.

Modern economical theory is based on this. All government policies is based on accepting that this is true. Nah, the burden of proof is on you. Marx introduced this way of thinking about society and the economy.

Before this the idea was that things were stable until some great man came along and changed history to suit his ambition. I think that way harder to argue for.

We didn't buy iPhones because Steve Jobs talked us into it. We bought them because they answered to a need (or needs) in us.

So I think you agree with Marxist history theory, you just don't understand what the alternative theories are, because you've probably never been exposed to them. Almost nobody has today. Today we just think that Marxist historical theory is common sense.

Sorry but I fail to see where it is you addressed my points. I'm not going to waste my time trying to read the runes. We were talking about great men and history, not about third millenium governments staffed with standardly trained politicians trying to manage the world's economies. You would have to prove that history works essentially like economy.
EB
 
Fundamentally the argument is just that people respond to incentives.

Modern economical theory is based on this. All government policies is based on accepting that this is true. Nah, the burden of proof is on you. Marx introduced this way of thinking about society and the economy.

Before this the idea was that things were stable until some great man came along and changed history to suit his ambition. I think that way harder to argue for.

We didn't buy iPhones because Steve Jobs talked us into it. We bought them because they answered to a need (or needs) in us.

So I think you agree with Marxist history theory, you just don't understand what the alternative theories are, because you've probably never been exposed to them. Almost nobody has today. Today we just think that Marxist historical theory is common sense.

Sorry but I fail to see where it is you addressed my points. I'm not going to waste my time trying to read the runes. We were talking about great men and history, not about third millenium governments staffed with standardly trained politicians trying to manage the world's economies. You would have to prove that history works essentially like economy.
EB

Hm... It seems I was wrong. You seem to really do believe in the pre-19'th century historiography. Fancy that. I don't. Yeah, I believe history works like economy. If something can be invented... it will... by somebody. If something is invented... somebody will use it. Pandemonium ensues. rinse. Repeat. That's Marxist history in a nutshell.

Where Marx fucked up is where he started to make cocksure predictions about the future based on his historiographic theory. Turns out he couldn't predict inventions that nobody had thought of before. Well... duh. So a genius, but not infallible.
 
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