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Metaphysics is a self delusional anadyne

I don't accept there is any such thing as a mind...

Where does this conclusion come from unless there is something that is aware of ideas and can use ideas freely to come to conclusions?

We know it is not the brain because that brain above is not coming to any conclusions.

It must be something that is not the brain.
 
Causing something to happen does not make the cause the same thing as what happens.

That depends on the conditions.

The activity that creates the mind is not the mind.

A) You can't know that. B) The "activity" does not "create" a "mind" like a fucking tea kettle. The "mind" is what we call the activity just as "heat" is what we call the act of exciting air molecules. It is a fucking verb.

It cannot be the mind

It most certainly can be, but again YOU CAN'T KNOW THAT. The conditions of your OWN ontology preclude you--a "mind"--from making any such objective declaration.
 
That depends on the conditions.

Worthless.

The activity that creates the mind is not the mind.

A) You can't know that.

It takes the ability to reason.

There are many activities in the brain. None are a mind.

Cells emitting transmitters are not a mind.

Cells taking transmitters up are not a mind.

Electricity is not a mind.

Magnetism is not a mind.

Blood flowing is not a mind.

You can't show me any activity that is a mind.

It is absurd to think a mind and some activity are the same thing unless some known activity can be shown to be a mind, whatever that could possibly mean.

Saying a mind and some activity are the same thing is gibberish. Activity can be seen and examined. A subjective mind cannot be seen or examined.

It is absolute gibberish to say that something that can be examined is the same thing as something that cannot be examined.
 
I would aver that UM is closest to the mark when it comes to staying true to a formality that could transcribe to encompassing Metaphysics.

If you wish to converse with Um on UMs level then you would need to stay away from the tendency of continually dropping the mind back into reality. If one is going to think metaphysically and think it honestly, one should at least attempt to depart from the constraints of physical realism; not be controlled by it. As is the situation within 90% of posts to this thread so far.

The OP was a misleading challenge, being somewhat cheeky in its brief composition with the declaration ‘Only material reality exists, everything else can be termed metaphysical verbosity (hogwash)’.
Grendel may well be spruiking a fact, it is well accepted that everything that is not real, must be unreal. Unfortunately he placed the unreal with a metaphysical tag to it…. I think it was designed to suck you guys in. I also think he was seeking confirmation on a subject that he cannot comprehend. For if he understood the subject, why put forward the qualification. Or alternatively, why the need for a stupid statement in the first instance?

Metaphysics is beyond physical reality. One has to step aside from the comfort of a finite creation and totally shift focus to the unknown metaphysical label. In so doing, be bold enough to rid oneself of the ego’s attitudes and the attached sentiments that skew the unwary dualistic mind.

Ums dilemma:
Even the best of thinkers would find it difficult enough to concentrate on metaphysical continuance without a then added difficulty of transferring the scene back into language that is capable of being decoded to recognizable (peer acceptable) physical experiences.

This thread certainly bears witness to the complexities of a consistently misunderstood metaphysical infinity.
 
I would aver that UM is closest to the mark when it comes to staying true to a formality that could transcribe to encompassing Metaphysics.

Sure. It's a frame of mind, a perspective.

And I am saying very little, but since there is contention it becomes a big deal.

Some modern thinkers have merely assumed they have the "mind" wrapped up in a nice little box and they actually understand it.

Their perspective is without merit.

There can be no real understanding if the mind is never even looked for.

Looking at brain activity will not show you a mind. Ever.

It will possibly show you how one arises.

You have to think of the mind as something that is created by activity of some kind to find it.

That is why the 1990's was the decade of the brain and we are no closer to understanding the mind than in 1990.

We know a lot more about the brain and brain activity.
 
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It takes the ability to reason.

Which you clearly do not possess.

There are many activities in the brain. None are a mind.

You can't know that.

Cells emitting transmitters are not a mind.

You can't know that.

Cells taking transmitters up are not a mind.

You can't know that. Indeed, as you have conceded elsewhere, you can't know anything at all about "mind"--including whether or not it even exists at all or in what form. All your ontology allows is that "something experiences." You can't even legitimately separate out "mind" from brain.

All you have--all you are doing--is petulantly asserting objective conditions that YOU CAN'T MAKE.

Electricity is not a mind.

You can't know that.

Magnetism is not a mind.

You can't know that.

Blood flowing is not a mind.

You can't know that.

You can't show me any activity that is a mind.

Neither can you, which is the point. Normal people use the term "mind" to refer to what the brain does. YOU are desperately trying to fiat that it is an objective, distinct, independent "thing"; i.e., like a tea kettle.

Nothing in your ontology allows you to do that, however, so you are forever fucked. You can't eve get to "I am," only "I think."
 
My point is that no activity is a mind.

No, your point was that I can't show you any activity that is a mind. Or at least, that's what I was referring to.

Neither can you, neither can anyone. Because "minds" don't exist. There is--as you put it--no THING to show.

I am that which experiences and commands the arm.

Call it mind, call it what you want.

But I exist.

I am not a brain. When I die you can search my brain and you will never find me.
 
I see you. You are in my realm of Here where you claim to be and you're on this thread writing untrue trivia.

I am totally separated from you.

I am not in your confused realm.

You confuse me with my products.

You confuse so many things.

It takes a very special "education" to be so lost.
 
Then you are brain.

A brain can be seen.

I cannot be seen.

If only that were true.

All you know is if you damage the machine that creates me I will be effected.

Just as I know that if I turn the projector on, your character will be shown on the wall. Or if I turn the heater on, the air in the room will get warmer. Or if I spin the paddle, it will look like there is a bird in a cage.
 
Yes.

Phenomena is produced.

The phenomena of mind is produced. It is a product.

Unlike any other known product.
 
The phenomena of mind is produced. It is a product.

A) You can't know that. B) Equivocation. It is not a "product" in the sense of it being independent or the end result of process; i.e., separate or distinct from process, except in the most trivial, abstract sense.

Do you simply not know what animation is or how it works? Or how a film works? You won't find "Hamlet" on any of the film frames either, because in this context, "Hamlet" is an animated character. It requires twenty four frames per second passing through a light source for the illusion of the character of "Hamlet" to appear on a screen.

But it doesn't take a fucking mensa member to comprehend HOW the character is animated and HOW the character appears to come to life, but actually does not. It is the act of projection that generates the illusion, but the illusion itself is not a "product" in the sense that it is an independent form/entity/thing, except in the abstract.

That's what you keep doing. You keep shifting the context, so that you go from verb to noun; from specific example to abstract condition. You can't do that. It gets you exactly nowhere.

In context, the particular character of Hamlet is the act of projecting the film.

For all you know, that is precisely the case with the brain. Just as the letters on your screen are actually nothing more than 1's and 0's that tell a projector which pixels are "on" and which are "off." You can sift through those 1's and 0's individually and of course you won't find any words or letters. That's not how it works, so why are you constantly making those category errors?
 
The phenomena of mind is produced. It is a product.

...It is not a "product" in the sense of it being independent or the end result of process...

You can't know that.

Do you simply not know what animation is or how it works?

Animation is a human activity.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the brain except humans use their minds, something created by the brain, to do it.
 
Knowing is when something is universal.

Like the universal knowing that a command is given to move the arm as desired.

It does not just move.

Why does the brain cause the muscles of respiration to work without any commands experienced, most of the time, but needs some command experienced to move the arm, most of the time, or to breath a little harder if desired?
 
Knowing is when something is universal.

How would you know that something is indeed universal? It's not possible.

Why does the brain cause the muscles of respiration to work without any commands experienced

How would you know that no command is experienced? You don't know that I experience redness or pain and yet I do. So, it's entirely possible the part of your brain that's unconscious to you is nonetheless conscious to and of itself and has subjective experience, for example of whatever it does to control breathing. What you take to be special, may well be mundane and unremarkable.

A bit a perspective is required here.
EB
 
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