Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath

[NobleSavage]

Missouri Governor announces St. Louis County Police to be relieved of their duties in Ferguson. About time!

 

[NobleSavage]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...ps-fire-tear-gas-and-bean-bags-at-news-crews/

Holy Shit! Watch as Ferguson Cops Fire Tear Gas and Bean Bags at News Crews

Yep. They are pretty amped up. And that becomes the a big problem with riot police, they think they are at war. I have no problem with tear gas to disperse rioters throwing rocks and Molitov cocktails, but just don't feed the beast.

And by the way, where are all the Soverun' Patriots? This is your revolution!

Yeah:

I don't know how it was in IRQ and AFG, but in Bosnia we had less firepower while on patrol than the cops in #Ferguson
— @CaptainAwwsum

FWIW I led foot patrols in downtown Baquba, #Iraq in 2005-06 w/less firepower than #Ferguson PD (excl fire spt) @CaptainAwwsum @AthertonKD
— @inteldump

@joanmccarter My troops were never as well equipped, nor as poorly trained or disciplined as they are. This is something else.

@dailykos

— @soonergrunt

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am using an eyewitnesses words, hence why it is in quotes. Anyway, it would have to be a slow moving bullet since three eyewitnesses put the shots after Brown had disengaged and was 20ft away.

Which makes it a perfect opportunity to verify or impeach the testimony of the witnesses that claim that. If autopsy determines that no gunshot wounds on Brown's body came from that far away it would mean the witnesses that claim he was shot at that distance are either mistaken or lying. If on the other hand the police officer claims he only shot him at short distance but autopsy proves otherwise it would impeach his testimony.
In any case physical evidence is important.

Trouble is that we do have more than 3 eyewitnesses who are telling the same story. This is what we know right now:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot..._Michael_Brown

1. there was some kind of altercation in or at the car
2. brown ran away from the car
3. the officer fired a shot (possibly hitting brown?)
4. brown turned around and put his hands in the air
5. the officer then fired at least two more shots, at least one of which hit and killed brown
6. brown was 20-30 feet away from the car at that point (supported by evidence)

Also, the lack of dashboard cameras might be a factor in officer behavior-departmental culture, especially after the Washington Post reporter non-arrest-detainment in jail.

I agree with you about the lack of dashboard cameras. Those should be mandatory equipment on all US police vehicles and also include a rear facing camera on the rear shelf.
The situation with McD reporters is more complicated as the police are handling a rather difficult situation with rioting, looting and arson.

Not really the police came in and tried to pick a fight with the reporters. The governor has just removed the police department from the situation.

 

[NobleSavage]

Evil Missouri cops on the other side of the state

 

[Derec]

Anonymous says that the officer is named: Bryan P. Willman

It turns out they are probably wrong.
Police Say Name Released By ‘Anonymous’ Is Not Officer In Controversial Shooting

 

[doubtingt]

doesn't disprove it either. And those number do indicate something besides basic police work and chance is at work. And then of course there is that pesky little thing called history. Gosh darn it.

It's not like we are dealing with random things.

now that is true.

When they find whites in drug territory it's usually an easy bust, they'll see the buy and then scoop up the buyer. Basically 100% chance of contraband. There's no corresponding easy bust for blacks.

are you saying black people aren't being busted for drugs?

And *WHY* are they arrested?

Loren that is the point of contention. Do try to keep up.

How many are for outstanding warrants?

you tell us.

I heard about a similar report this morning for the state of IL, claiming higher search rates yet lower found-drug "hit" rates for blacks than whites. At first, I thought that seem rather damning, but then I realized that factors like suspicious behavior and shitty/abusive initial attitudes towards the cops are major determinants of whether a traffic stop leads to a search.

if black people didn't have bad attitudes , cops wouldn't have to kill us. But bad attitudes are a high crime and deserving of capital punishment. the police, the trained professional who are supposed to be well versed in de-escalation technique have no power of the force of the black bad attitude and must therefore shoot and kill.

And what do black people have to feel out of sorts about? Not like there has ever been anything any police officer has ever done to any black person, past or present, that should make a black person guarded or even a teensy bit anxious. And since all black people know cops have guns and will shot them, heaven forbid they don't just acquiesce and be happy, smiling ... Citizens.

Questioning public servants when you have done nothing wrong or asserting the rights of citizens not to be harassed, that's not for black people. Nor is the right to have a bad day or a bad attitude. That's for other people.

None of this has any relevance to what I said or to the issue of why blacks are searched more often during stops. If a person bad mouths or hassles a cop who asks for licence and registration, they are going to be far more likely to get searched, no matter what color they are. Whether this is appropriate by the cop is irrelevant to how it related to differential search rates. If blacks who get stopped are more likely to have such a reaction, then they will be more likely to be searched, not because they are black but because of such a reaction. Why they engage in the reaction is also not relevant to the search in question. If they are upset about 500 years of oppression and suspect racism by the cop (whether justified or not) and this makes them have such a reaction, then they will be more likely to get searched, and again that search will not be triggered by their race but by their reaction. Notice that about 90% of blacks who are stopped do not get search. They are all black, so being black is not why those that get searched are searched. The individual person's reaction to the cops is one factor that could play a role, but the whole point of my post is that even without this speculative but plausible factor that could create different search rates, the actual data posted provide more than enough direct evidence of differences that more than warrant to greater search rates without race having anything to do with it.

The data in this table add even more reason to doubt that the discrepancy in searches and arrests is racial profiling. First, "contraband" includes merely having a joint or an empty beer can in the back seat or even a 6 pack in the trunk if the driver is under 21. But contraband also includes having a weapon or stolen property. If we exclude the drug/alcohol category of "contraband", then blacks who are pulled over are twice as likely as whites to have weapons or stolen property. Then there is the age difference. 40% of the whites that are stopped are over the age of 40, whereas only 27% of blacks stopped are that old.
Then there is the reason for the stop. Whites are more likely to be stopped for a specific traffic or equipment violation, whereas blacks are about twice as likely than whites to be stopped due to the car not having a proper licence/registration or as part of investigating a suspected crime (more on that in minute). Then we come to outstanding warrants. Blacks in a traffic stop are 4 times as likely to have an outstanding warrant, which accounts for far more arrests than all other reasons combined. Not only do the warrants fully account for the higher arrest rates during a stop, but they also would contribute greatly to the car/person being searched.

In sum, the data show plenty of justified non-racial profiling reasons why blacks would be more likely to be searched and arrested once pulled over. The only thing that remains "suspicious" is why blacks are more likely to be pulled over for non-traffic "investigation" reasons. More detail from the police reports is needed to determine that, especially specifics about what parts of town the stops are being made in. Given that in almost every town or city blacks drive more often in the areas where the most ongoing criminal activity is being reported and investigated, it isn't surprising that they would be more likely to be pulled over while cops are in these areas investigated reported robberies, shooting, drug deals, etc..

Are there racist cops in America targeting blacks? Very likely. Is this data evidence of that? No.

Actually they are. You could argue the numbers are not conclusive, but not that they are not evidence.

They are not just inconclusive, they are not at all suggestive of racial profiling in terms of the differential search and arrest rates. Yes, they are "evidence", but evidence strongly in favor of the opposing theory that the cops are justified in their greater searches and arrests based solely upon outstanding warrants for prior crimes and the double odds of a weapon or stolen property in the vehicle. As soon as they run the license, they know there is a warrant and for what prior crime. They are required to arrest those with warrants and searches will be part of that process given that the warrant will likely give more than enough probable cause.
So, there is no room for discretion there in which the racism of the cop can play a role. So, we (rationally) should (which means you will not) subtract the incidents where their is an outstanding warrant and thus and arrest and search is essentially mandated. When we do that, we find that white people without warrants are searched 5% of the time, while black people without warrants are only searched 4% of the time. IOW, if the "evidence" suggests anything, it suggests racism-motivated searches against white drivers.

why are black folk being pulled over to begin with?

I addressed that along with the clear evidence showing non-race motivated searches and arrests that you completely ignored and somehow pretend is still in favor of your preferred hypothesis.
First, warrants come up when a plate is run and can be the cause of the stop to begin with. So, the fact that blacks are much more likely to have a warrant makes them more likely to get pulled over, searched, and arrested. IT alone accounts for it all without even having to consider the added fact of more probable gun and stolen property possession or their reaction to being pulled over, or the difference in where they are driving, their younger age, etc.. But all of these other factors could easily add to their likelihood of being pulled over without the cops factoring in their race. Heck I didn't even mention the number of passengers or the hours at which they are driving, both of which are generally related to age (younger drivers having more passengers cruising late at night), and thus likely related to race since the stats show that the biggest discrepancy is among drivers 18-29 years old.

And why is Michael Brown dead?

Clearly for reasons unrelated to the stats in question, since they show the discrepancy is entirely due to higher warrant rates and prior criminal behavior by black drivers, and Brown had no warrants and wasn't driving. Perhaps racism was a part of his death, but your desire to "prove" that is making you point to data that lend zero support for that belief and if anything undermine it. At minimum, Brown's deliberate refusal to cooperate and resist detention (which was admitted to by his friend that was walking with him) was a major contributor to his death. Given the admitted refusal to cooperate, it lends credence to the cops claim of a physical altercation. The cop also says that struggle inside his cruiser led to an initial gun shot inside the cruiser. That should be easy to verify and hard to account for without such a struggle, unless the cop thought to fire a shot inside his car after-the-fact in some kind of very clever cover story. Did the cop act unreasonably and too aggressively at the start or any other point? Maybe, we have no data in it. Even if true, is that evidence of racism. Not unless cops never act overly aggressive with with people who resist detention. Was the cop racist? Maybe, but if so it isn't evidence that the vehicle search numbers are anything other than a rational analysis shows them to be, which is cops responding to outstanding warrants.

this is what I read when I read you.

Racism could exist (we don't know that for a fact, but it could) but nothing so far can prove it. Nothing so far ever has.

So, it is clear you have basic problems comprehending the meaning of statistics (even those you put forth as "evidence" for your claims), and trouble grasping written prose as well. Nothing I have said implies the stance you attribute to me. I very much acknowledge the existence of racism, and of empirical evidence for it, including the sadly few well controlled studies that have demonstrated it at work. Also, both statistical odds and specific case examples say that it definitely exists among some cops and impacts their actions. I have said all this in various threads about racism.

And as long as there is another reason or rationalization available,

IOW, you view clear evidence of a variable like outststanding warrants that we know does (and must by law) directly impact arrests as a mere "rationalization" for why one person with a warrant is arrested and another without a warrant is arrested.

reasonable people must dismiss racism,

No, reasonable people would not do what you just did and dismiss a well established alternative cause as a "rationalization". It has nothing to do with beliefs about racism in general, at least not for reasonable people, because the question is about whether racism is a major cause of a specific act (Brown's shooting) or narrow subset of acts (searching and arresting of drivers in that town), which may or may not be the case regardless of the general existence of racism.
I believe that smoking causes lung cancer and thus death. But every time someone dies, I don't blindly assume it was smoking even if the person was a smoker. You do the equivalent of assuming every smoker who dies does so due to smoking, even when they clearly have a bullet wound to the head. Ironically, what your approach is the application of a generalized stereotype to inferring what must be true in specific cases.

Your comments really highlight the source of your unreason and total refusal to honestly consider empirical data relevant to the specific actions in question that arise in this and other threads. You allow your general beliefs about racism to completely determine your beliefs about the causal factors of any specific act where a black person is negatively treated, not only when there is no evidence of it in that case but even when there is clear evidence in favor of non-racist causal factors, as in the case of the greater searches and arrests of black drivers, even though this only exists for black drivers with warrants against them. Your sole tool in your toolbox is an anti-racism hammer, so everywhere you look, you see racist nails.

ok

can you provide an example of your posting here or in the archives where you plead the case that racism is a viable cause of a racially charged situation?

I could provide plenty of examples, some within that last 24 hours, but as always, I've already done too much of your intellectual work for you, and it has zero relevance to the arguments at hand. First, why don't you show a milligram of sincerity in wanting to address the issue rationally and not completely ignore the facts and arguments I've presented that expose all your posts for the unreasoned religious faith that they represent.
Oh, and while your at it, go ahead and show any post I have every made that denies the general existence of racism and that it impacts people's actions. Saying that is how you "read" me doesn't count, because that just means that you invented a straw man since you have no capacity to address the facts and reasoning I actually present.

 

[Derec]

Missouri Governor announces St. Louis County Police to be relieved of their duties in Ferguson. About time!

Who is going to take their place? National Guard?

 

[Derec]

Trouble is that we do have more than 3 eyewitnesses who are telling the same story. This is what we know right now:

No we do not know that yet. Let's wait until the investigation is done before forming conclusions.

By the way, I found an interesting quote by MLK Jr.:

"Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We've got to face that. And we've got to do something about our moral standards," he said. "We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves."

From this article.
The more things change and all that. One black teen gets shot and killed by a white police officer and all hell breaks loose. Even if it turns out that the police officer committed murder it will still be one of many young black men who are victims of murder, mostly at hands of other blacks. Talk about misplaced priorities.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Missouri Governor announces St. Louis County Police to be relieved of their duties in Ferguson. About time!

Who is going to take their place? National Guard?

State police and/or FBI, not sure at this time.

 

[Derec]

Who is going to take their place? National Guard?

State police and/or FBI, not sure at this time.

Does FBI even have a crowd/riot control capability? They are in charge of the actual investigation of course, but my question was about trying to restore order and end the rioting.

 

[repoman]

No we do not know that yet. Let's wait until the investigation is done before forming conclusions.

By the way, I found an interesting quote by MLK Jr.:

"Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We've got to face that. And we've got to do something about our moral standards," he said. "We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves."

From this article.
The more things change and all that. One black teen gets shot and killed by a white police officer and all hell breaks loose. Even if it turns out that the police officer committed murder it will still be one of many young black men who are victims of murder, mostly at hands of other blacks. Talk about misplaced priorities.

The article is behind a subscription wall (not too steep a price, but I am not going to consider it for now).

The MLK quote may be accurate and also not taken much out of context.

For me it is a matter of balance, if the ratio of black youths killed by other black youths is 100 times more than killed by police then this issue is blown out of proportion. If it is 10 to 1 then it is not so much.

Put it this way, if you want crime to stop in black areas then they have to feel that when they call the police that they or their family won't be shot by them.

However, it seems that blacks and police have such an antagonistic relationship that this

It takes being a crystal meth addict or mental illness or listening to Alex Jones all day for a white person to be as pissed off at cops as many blacks are.

When it comes to arrests for drugs, why are so damn many young (obviously not homeless) blacks into street loitering and open air drug dealing here in Downtown Seattle? Can we please get some more Boys and Girls clubs opened here, give them something to do? I understand that the need for social connection is strong, but loitering all day on downtown streets where the police are going to hassle you and eventually get you into the system is dumb.

Previously (still now?) in the University District here there were lots of mostly white meth addicts shambling around - many pushed to homelessness by their addiction including a former coworker who tried to sell me a stolen bicycle. I have seen white meth and heroin addicts near the freeway onramps in downtown as well. But these people are homeless and have no other options unlike the non-homeless teenage black kids at 3rd and Pine.

 

[Derec]

The article is behind a subscription wall (not too steep a price, but I am not going to consider it for now).

Funny, there is no pay-wall if you come from the google results page rather than click directly on it. A deal with google perhaps?

For me it is a matter of balance, if the ratio of black youths killed by other black youths is 100 times more than killed by police then this issue is blown out of proportion. If it is 10 to 1 then it is not so much.

You also have to consider how many of the police shooting victims were killed in obvious "good shoots" rather than questionable (like this one at the moment) or obviously "bad shoots."

Put it this way, if you want crime to stop in black areas then they have to feel that when they call the police that they or their family won't be shot by them.

But rioting and "fuck the police" attitude is not going to help matters there.

When it comes to arrests for drugs, why are so damn many young (obviously not homeless) blacks into street loitering and open air drug dealing here in Downtown Seattle? Can we please get some more Boys and Girls clubs opened here, give them something to do? I understand that the need for social connection is strong, but loitering all day on downtown streets where the police are going to hassle you and eventually get you into the system is dumb.

My guess is that they are doing it to make money without doing any actual work.

But these people are homeless and have no other options unlike the non-homeless teenage black kids at 3rd and Pine.

Well it's not like they can open a storefront.

 

[Arctish]

One black teen gets shot and killed by a white police officer and all hell breaks loose. Even if it turns out that the police officer committed murder it will still be one of many young black men who are victims of murder, mostly at hands of other blacks. Talk about misplaced priorities.

I heard this same talk about misplaced priorities back in the 1960s. But when people actually looked at what was going on in the precincts that served black communities it turned out the local cops were often corrupt thugs who were just as likely to shoot innocents as save them. The further South you went into the old Slave States, the more likely it was that the cops were there to keep the "coloreds" in line. And if that's what the police are in your neighborhood, changing the status quo is a priority.

 

[RavenSky]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/...ps-fire-tear-gas-and-bean-bags-at-news-crews/

Holy Shit! Watch as Ferguson Cops Fire Tear Gas and Bean Bags at News Crews

I heard they've tear-gassed a state Senator and arrested several clergy members too.

If nothing else, this is a PR disaster to St. Louis police. The visuals of this very small police department deploying more fire power and military vehicles/armor than actual military units have - and using it against largely PEACEFUL protestors - is going to reverberate for a very long time.

 

[RavenSky]

Who is going to take their place? National Guard?

State police and/or FBI, not sure at this time.

State Troopers, who (so far) appear to be handling the situation far far better

 

[Derec]

If nothing else, this is a PR disaster to St. Louis police. The visuals of this very small police department deploying more fire power and military vehicles/armor than actual military units have - and using it against largely PEACEFUL protestors - is going to reverberate for a very long time.

Peaceful my ass! May I remind you that they looted and torched a Quicktrip (or as a reporter misspoke, Kwik-E-Mart) on the first day of the riot aka "peaceful protest".

 

[RavenSky]

LARGELY peaceful, Derec. No matter how many individual photos you scour your right-wing rags for, it won't change the truth of what I've said. EOD

 

[Derec]

LARGELY peaceful, Derec. No matter how many individual photos you scour your right-wing rags for, it won't change the truth of what I've said. EOD

"Apart from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

But even when the protests are peaceful, as they seem to be tonight, I must ask what the fucking point is?
There has been a shooting, there is an investigation. Those take time. There is no point protesting anything at this point.

 

[thebeave]

No we do not know that yet. Let's wait until the investigation is done before forming conclusions.

By the way, I found an interesting quote by MLK Jr.:

"Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We've got to face that. And we've got to do something about our moral standards," he said. "We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves."

From this article.
The more things change and all that. One black teen gets shot and killed by a white police officer and all hell breaks loose. Even if it turns out that the police officer committed murder it will still be one of many young black men who are victims of murder, mostly at hands of other blacks. Talk about misplaced priorities.

Yep. I wonder how many people know about this last July 4th weekend in Chicago:

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/More-than-50-Shot-over-Fourth-of-July-Weekend-265950061.html

Violence in Chicago continued over the Fourth of July weekend with at least 11 people shot in roughly four hours Sunday afternoon, bringing the total number of people shot since the holiday weekend began to 67.
At least 11 people were killed over the long weekend.

Most recently, a 21-year-old man was killed and a 19-year-old man was wounded in a shooting in the 5200 block of West Lake Street around 5:40 p.m. Sunday. Police said the two were sitting in a car when someone approached their vehicle and opened fire before fleeing on foot. The 21-year-old man was shot in the head and pronounced dead at the scene. The 19-year-old man was shot in the upper right thigh and was taken to Stroger Hospital in stable condition.
Earlier Sunday, a 20-year-old man was shot sitting in a vehicle around 12:20 a.m. near Montrose Avenue and Malden Street in the city’s Uptown neighborhood when a man walked up and fired shots.

And no one, particularly white liberals, seem to give a shit, because its blacks killing blacks.

 

[laughing dog]

It is fascinating to see people equate on duty police officers shooting unarmed people with civilian murders. It's as if there is no recognition that the police are supposed to avoid acting like murderers.