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Minimum Wage Does Not Destroy Jobs


Nice job of deceptive statistics, not to mention totally bad data.

You can see it just from what they say. Note the median age is 31 but the "average" age (presumably mean) is 36. That shows we don't have anything like an even distribution here.

Looking for some real data I find: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm Look at table 7:

Note that a hair under half are 16-24. Nothing like the 31 median of the EPI.

Furthermore, more telling is the distribution between at minimum wage and below minimum wage. The older a worker the more likely they are at below minimum wage. Below minimum wage means tipped work and includes some people with considerable take-home money. Look at table 6: Higher education means they're more likely to be below minimum wage.

This is the first time I've found EPI categorically wrong but I'm very used to them being deceptive.
 

Nice job of deceptive statistics, not to mention totally bad data.

You can see it just from what they say. Note the median age is 31 but the "average" age (presumably mean) is 36. That shows we don't have anything like an even distribution here.

Looking for some real data I find: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm Look at table 7:

Note that a hair under half are 16-24. Nothing like the 31 median of the EPI.

Furthermore, more telling is the distribution between at minimum wage and below minimum wage. The older a worker the more likely they are at below minimum wage. Below minimum wage means tipped work and includes some people with considerable take-home money. Look at table 6: Higher education means they're more likely to be below minimum wage.

This is the first time I've found EPI categorically wrong but I'm very used to them being deceptive.
First, a difference between the mean and the median is irrelevant to this analysis. It does not indicate any deception or misuse of data.

Second, the fact that "a hair under half" (whatever that means numericallY) are 16-24 does not rebut the possibility of a median of 31 by 2020.

Third, if you had bothered to actually read the insert, it does not claim to describe the current distribution of workers who are affected by the minimum wage. It clearly states "Statistics describe civilian workers, ages 16+ that would be affected by an increase in the federal minimum wage to $12.00 by 2020."

Fourth, your assumption that tipped workers earn more than the equivalent of a minimum wage is unsupported. And if that is true that they earn more than the equivalent of $12 per hour, then raising it should have little effect on their employment. Moreover, unless all those tipped workers earn more than the equivalent of $12 per hour, that means some of them don't.

The EPI numbers may be wrong, but your response is so full of holes as to be meaningless.
 

Nice job of deceptive statistics, not to mention totally bad data.

You can see it just from what they say. Note the median age is 31 but the "average" age (presumably mean) is 36. That shows we don't have anything like an even distribution here.

Looking for some real data I find: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm Look at table 7:

Note that a hair under half are 16-24. Nothing like the 31 median of the EPI.

Furthermore, more telling is the distribution between at minimum wage and below minimum wage. The older a worker the more likely they are at below minimum wage. Below minimum wage means tipped work and includes some people with considerable take-home money. Look at table 6: Higher education means they're more likely to be below minimum wage.

This is the first time I've found EPI categorically wrong but I'm very used to them being deceptive.
First, a difference between the mean and the median is irrelevant to this analysis. It does not indicate any deception or misuse of data.

It doesn't indicate deception but it does indicate that the data isn't remotely normally distributed and thus mean and median say little about what's really going on.

Second, the fact that "a hair under half" (whatever that means numericallY) are 16-24 does not rebut the possibility of a median of 31 by 2020.

48%. To get to 31 by 2020 would take some major changes.

Third, if you had bothered to actually read the insert, it does not claim to describe the current distribution of workers who are affected by the minimum wage. It clearly states "Statistics describe civilian workers, ages 16+ that would be affected by an increase in the federal minimum wage to $12.00 by 2020."

In other words, numbers pretty much pulled out of their ass.

Fourth, your assumption that tipped workers earn more than the equivalent of a minimum wage is unsupported. And if that is true that they earn more than the equivalent of $12 per hour, then raising it should have little effect on their employment. Moreover, unless all those tipped workers earn more than the equivalent of $12 per hour, that means some of them don't.

The EPI numbers may be wrong, but your response is so full of holes as to be meaningless.

The point about tipped workers is that they have a very different profile than the minimum wage workers.
 
The idea that a worker's income should be entirely at the whim of his employer's customers is bizarre, degrading, disguting, medieval, and completely fucked up beyond all reason.

That Americans are completely unaware of just how awful it is, is symptomatic of the wider insanity that includes this nutty idea that minimum wages far below subsistence levels are acceptable.

I still remain astonished that your working classes have not risen in bloody revolution against their oppressors. Nobody in the civilised world would put up with such shit.
 
First, a difference between the mean and the median is irrelevant to this analysis. It does not indicate any deception or misuse of data.

It doesn't indicate deception but it does indicate that the data isn't remotely normally distributed and thus mean and median say little about what's really going on.
Means and medians are usually used as frame of reference. This data indicates that contrary to the myth, minimum wage workers are not primarily teenagers or people under 24.

48%. To get to 31 by 2020 would take some major changes.
Without knowing the distribution, there is no way for us or you to know. It is possible the median is 31 right now.

In other words, numbers pretty much pulled out of their ass.
No, because that is your trademark. Whether you or I agree with the frame of reference, they are looking at a point in the near future.

The point about tipped workers is that they have a very different profile than the minimum wage workers.
So? The point, which seems to elude you, is that they are minimum wage or below minimum wage workers.
 
The idea that a worker's [wage] income should be entirely at the whim of his employer's customers is . . .

No one thinks that. The wage should be entirely determined by 2 parties -- the worker and the employer, each one having the sovereign right to refuse any amount. And any amount they both agree to is the right wage for any worker to be paid, with no one else having any right to interfere to impose anything different than what the individual employer/company and individual worker agree to.

And along with this, the customer and the seller also need complete freedom to reject any price, and whatever price both agree to is the right price. So indirectly the customers/buyers help set the wage levels by their choice of what price to pay -- thus making everyone better off.

With the only caveat to the above being that neither the worker or employer, or the buyer or seller, commits fraud onto the other.

This rule for wage and price levels is the one which would lead (or does lead) to the best possible condition for all humans, because it results in the optimum production for human benefit.


. . . is bizarre, degrading, disgusting, medieval, and completely fucked up beyond all reason.

No, what's "bizarre, degrading," etc. is anything other than the individual employer and individual worker deciding the amount, and free to accept or reject anything with no outside interference, thus making the world better off.

Meaning any desperate job-seeker must be free to accept a low wage in order to be able to get hired, i.e., free to choose a low-paying job rather than have no job at all -- and thus making everyone better off.

And to deny a desperate job-seeker the freedom to compete by offering his labor at a lower wage is bizarre, degrading, disgusting, etc., because denying the choice to work at a lower wage eliminates many jobs and needed production, thus making the world worse off.


That Americans are completely unaware of just how awful it is, is symptomatic of the wider insanity that includes this nutty idea that minimum wages far below subsistence levels are acceptable.

Meaning most wage levels in poor countries -- having a third or half the world's population -- are not acceptable. So, to make it "acceptable," those countries must be forced to increase all the wage levels up to "subsistence levels" -- meaning millions of people would starve who otherwise would live to an old age. Because when you force the wages up above "subsistence levels" in those countries, vast numbers of those jobs would be eliminated, tens of millions made poor, production vastly reduced > extreme scarcities of food and other necessities.

It would mean vast suffering and starvation, possibly a billion humans starving or brought to near starvation, in order to make it "acceptable."

In other words, it's a "nutty idea" that millions of humans should be able to live and not have to starve, as they would if all the world's wages were forced up to "subsistence level" and no jobs could exist which pay below that level.

And it's also a "nutty idea" that millions more are made better off, in the higher-income countries, from the benefits they buy from the poor countries at lower prices.

So "acceptable" means making everyone worse off, greatly increasing the world's suffering, and imposing starvation onto a billion or so humans. That's "acceptable" -- while making people better off, letting them improve their lives by taking advantage of cheap labor in poor countries, thus making poor people better off and less poor -- that's a "nutty idea."


Why?

Why is it "nutty" for people to be better off? And why isn't it "acceptable" unless a billion of them starve from increasing the wage to an "acceptable" level which would eliminate so much needed production?
 
Many workers are not in a position to negotiate a wage rate. More often than not it's a case of 'this is the pay rate, take it or leave it.'
 
No one thinks that. The wage should be entirely determined by 2 parties -- the worker and the employer, each one having the sovereign right to refuse any amount. And any amount they both agree to is the right wage for any worker to be paid, with no one else having any right to interfere to impose anything different than what the individual employer/company and individual worker agree to.

And along with this, the customer and the seller also need complete freedom to reject any price, and whatever price both agree to is the right price. So indirectly the customers/buyers help set the wage levels by their choice of what price to pay -- thus making everyone better off.

With the only caveat to the above being that neither the worker or employer, or the buyer or seller, commits fraud onto the other.

This rule for wage and price levels is the one which would lead (or does lead) to the best possible condition for all humans, because it results in the optimum production for human benefit.




No, what's "bizarre, degrading," etc. is anything other than the individual employer and individual worker deciding the amount, and free to accept or reject anything with no outside interference, thus making the world better off.

Meaning any desperate job-seeker must be free to accept a low wage in order to be able to get hired, i.e., free to choose a low-paying job rather than have no job at all -- and thus making everyone better off.

And to deny a desperate job-seeker the freedom to compete by offering his labor at a lower wage is bizarre, degrading, disgusting, etc., because denying the choice to work at a lower wage eliminates many jobs and needed production, thus making the world worse off.


That Americans are completely unaware of just how awful it is, is symptomatic of the wider insanity that includes this nutty idea that minimum wages far below subsistence levels are acceptable.

Meaning most wage levels in poor countries -- having a third or half the world's population -- are not acceptable. So, to make it "acceptable," those countries must be forced to increase all the wage levels up to "subsistence levels" -- meaning millions of people would starve who otherwise would live to an old age. Because when you force the wages up above "subsistence levels" in those countries, vast numbers of those jobs would be eliminated, tens of millions made poor, production vastly reduced > extreme scarcities of food and other necessities.

It would mean vast suffering and starvation, possibly a billion humans starving or brought to near starvation, in order to make it "acceptable."

In other words, it's a "nutty idea" that millions of humans should be able to live and not have to starve, as they would if all the world's wages were forced up to "subsistence level" and no jobs could exist which pay below that level.

And it's also a "nutty idea" that millions more are made better off, in the higher-income countries, from the benefits they buy from the poor countries at lower prices.

So "acceptable" means making everyone worse off, greatly increasing the world's suffering, and imposing starvation onto a billion or so humans. That's "acceptable" -- while making people better off, letting them improve their lives by taking advantage of cheap labor in poor countries, thus making poor people better off and less poor -- that's a "nutty idea."


Why?

Why is it "nutty" for people to be better off? And why isn't it "acceptable" unless a billion of them starve from increasing the wage to an "acceptable" level which would eliminate so much needed production?

So if you agree that wages should be set by only the employer and employee, then you agree with me that tipped work - where the customers set the pay rate without any regard to the employee or employer, is unacceptable?
 
Why is it "nutty" for people to be better off? And why isn't it "acceptable" unless a billion of them starve from increasing the wage to an "acceptable" level which would eliminate so much needed production?

your argument is false for the following reason. An employer will pay as little as a hungry one will accept unless that bar is set at living wage. Then since there are no willing workers to take jobs at less than living wage since living wage is as little as the employer can offer. Employers will still make money in the usual ways by selling better or for less than competition only a bottom living wage provides dignity to wage earner.

If one permits scofflaws then Smith's formulation is correct. Eliminate scofflaws and Smith is still right except there is a moral lower bound to wage offered.

As for Trump thinking just add morality backed with ethical behavior and, wallah. No Trump behavior.

One does not decrease the number of available workers by increasing wage limits. One changes how capital is spent in business. Should one choose not to participate it hurts the businessman because his capital is not engaged in producing more capital. the correct decision is to change calculation to meet demand of new model by shifting cost cutting to other areas either by improving process or product.
 
The idea that a worker's income should be entirely at the whim of his employer's customers is bizarre, degrading, disguting, medieval, and completely fucked up beyond all reason.

That Americans are completely unaware of just how awful it is, is symptomatic of the wider insanity that includes this nutty idea that minimum wages far below subsistence levels are acceptable.

I still remain astonished that your working classes have not risen in bloody revolution against their oppressors. Nobody in the civilised world would put up with such shit.

Whether tipped culture is right or not has nothing to do with what I'm saying about minimum wage work.

And it's not entirely a negative--having your income be related to how your customers feel provides a considerable incentive to treat your customers well.
 
Means and medians are usually used as frame of reference. This data indicates that contrary to the myth, minimum wage workers are not primarily teenagers or people under 24.

48%. To get to 31 by 2020 would take some major changes.
Without knowing the distribution, there is no way for us or you to know. It is possible the median is 31 right now.

You just flunked statistics 101.

The point about tipped workers is that they have a very different profile than the minimum wage workers.
So? The point, which seems to elude you, is that they are minimum wage or below minimum wage workers.

But the data says nothing about how much they actually make. A quick search turned up a tipped profession with an average (at least reported, reality is probably higher) income of $46k.
 
Many workers are not in a position to negotiate a wage rate. More often than not it's a case of 'this is the pay rate, take it or leave it.'

Yes and no. They can't negotiate with an individual employer but they still have their biggest weapon--their feet. The company that offers below-market wages will end up with shitty workers if they can find them at all.

(And note that unions demand seniority-based systems to deny workers their feet as a weapon so they have to rely on the union to get raises.)
 
Feet won't work if any employer is able to pay less than a living wage to a worker.

Because, as it turns out, employers care not whether one can live only that there are ample supply of those who can work. Without regulation employers would gravitate to lowest paying jobs for making the most profitable items using the cheapest material and distribution. Or put another way if there are enough customers willing to buy something it matters not whether they will survive the purchase.

So producers need only focus on cost to manufacture and distribute, whether it is actually wanted is secondary to is it cheap and shiny. What eliminates that being an actuality rests in the ability to legislate for the social good.
 
Many workers are not in a position to negotiate a wage rate. More often than not it's a case of 'this is the pay rate, take it or leave it.'

Yes and no. They can't negotiate with an individual employer but they still have their biggest weapon--their feet. The company that offers below-market wages will end up with shitty workers if they can find them at all.

(And note that unions demand seniority-based systems to deny workers their feet as a weapon so they have to rely on the union to get raises.)

If work is hard to get, feet don't get you to a new place that offers better pay or conditions.....which is why workers in that position do not have bargaining power and their situation is "this is the pay rate, take it or leave it"
 
Feet won't work if any employer is able to pay less than a living wage to a worker.

Because, as it turns out, employers care not whether one can live only that there are ample supply of those who can work. Without regulation employers would gravitate to lowest paying jobs for making the most profitable items using the cheapest material and distribution. Or put another way if there are enough customers willing to buy something it matters not whether they will survive the purchase.

So producers need only focus on cost to manufacture and distribute, whether it is actually wanted is secondary to is it cheap and shiny. What eliminates that being an actuality rests in the ability to legislate for the social good.

Dog whistles aren't exclusive to the right, "living wage" is a leftist dog-whistle that means "more than they are worth".

Many workers are not in a position to negotiate a wage rate. More often than not it's a case of 'this is the pay rate, take it or leave it.'

Yes and no. They can't negotiate with an individual employer but they still have their biggest weapon--their feet. The company that offers below-market wages will end up with shitty workers if they can find them at all.

(And note that unions demand seniority-based systems to deny workers their feet as a weapon so they have to rely on the union to get raises.)

If work is hard to get, feet don't get you to a new place that offers better pay or conditions.....which is why workers in that position do not have bargaining power and their situation is "this is the pay rate, take it or leave it"

Look at the unemployment rate--work isn't hard to get unless there's something wrong with your employability. (Note that this might be something beyond your control--you don't have the demand locally but relocation would cause other problems.)
 
You just flunked statistics 101.
The fact that 48% of the population is younger than 24 by itself cannot possibly prove what the median is. One would have to make assumptions about the type of distribution to come to some conclusion. But making assumptions is not KNOWING.

Until you come up with actual explanation that involves actual data, it is pretty clear that you are simply misusing what few statistical ideas you may understand.

But the data says nothing about how much they actually make. A quick search turned up a tipped profession with an average (at least reported, reality is probably higher) income of $46k.
And you feel that is relevant to the issue that there are tipped workers who receive the minimum wage or below the minimum wage and who earn significantly less than the average?

BTW, most people who wish to make a convincing argument when they start out with "a quick search" include the link.
 
Look at the unemployment rate--work isn't hard to get unless there's something wrong with your employability. (Note that this might be something beyond your control--you don't have the demand locally but relocation would cause other problems.)

If that is the case, why is the pay rate in the US so shitty for low income earners? If they had any real bargaining power would they not use it to secure better pay?
 
You just flunked statistics 101.
The fact that 48% of the population is younger than 24 by itself cannot possibly prove what the median is. One would have to make assumptions about the type of distribution to come to some conclusion. But making assumptions is not KNOWING.

Until you come up with actual explanation that involves actual data, it is pretty clear that you are simply misusing what few statistical ideas you may understand.

I already gave you the data and you obviously didn't even look at it, instead stupidly twisting what I said without understanding it. I didn't say 48% of the population is under 24--the actual value is more like 38. What I said was 48% of minimum wage workers are 24 or under.

But the data says nothing about how much they actually make. A quick search turned up a tipped profession with an average (at least reported, reality is probably higher) income of $46k.
And you feel that is relevant to the issue that there are tipped workers who receive the minimum wage or below the minimum wage and who earn significantly less than the average?

BTW, most people who wish to make a convincing argument when they start out with "a quick search" include the link.

The point is you can't figure that below minimum wage means low pay.
 
Look at the unemployment rate--work isn't hard to get unless there's something wrong with your employability. (Note that this might be something beyond your control--you don't have the demand locally but relocation would cause other problems.)

If that is the case, why is the pay rate in the US so shitty for low income earners? If they had any real bargaining power would they not use it to secure better pay?

It's low because that's all they're worth.
 
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