MLK's Dream

[Ramaraksha]

We recently celebrated his holiday in the US - so the following incident is appropriate and a fascinating look into human psychology or morality or sociology - maybe you guys can tell me

This happened with a co-worker of mine - about the same age - we got along well - an African-American & I am from India - and one day we got to talking religion and then he suddenly says that since I am not Christian, but a Hindu, I am going to Hell. The cool way he says it, so unfeeling, so uncaring was stunning. He actually believed it - gave no thought to my feelings or anything. Coming from an African-American that was rich because i reminded him about MLK's dream - what was it again? That we should not be judged by the color of one's skin but by the strength of one's character? My "friend" would have been very upset when faced with racism - to be followed around in a store, to be abused and discriminated because of his skin color would have made him angry and yet the same guy, the very same guy, was ok with discrimination based on religion!

I would be like the Jew under Hitler - to be set apart because of my religion and sent off to Gas Chambers waiting for me in Hell - Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists and billions of others like us - would put Hitler to shame

So can anyone figure out why the very same person would behave so differently? That his morals would do a 180 degree turn?

I call it the Dichotomy of the Minority and the Majority

The way i figure is that as a black man facing racism, he was a minority - and all minorities speak the same way - they are ALL Enlightened. As a minority lacking power, feeling helpless against evil, he reacts by asking us to raise our morality - to see the human being first, everything else comes second

But then as a Christian, he was no longer a minority! Now, he was with the Majority! Ah, now his ideas changed! Now, suddenly he was no better than a racist

We see that with Muslims today here in the west - as a minority they speak the same language - "We should not judge people by religion, underneath we are all the same. Underneath we are human beings, with loved ones, hopes and dreams". The tell is to check where these Muslims are coming from - from which country? Where they are the majority and see if they behave the same way in their own country and that might tell a different story

So, the story of my "friend" makes me depressed - do our morals and ethics change according to our situation in life? I believe they do - Morals are subjective not objective, we already knew that, but we never realized how subjective we can be

 

[BH]

When I was Church of Christ I had a discussion before church services over freedom of religion. I don't remember what brought it up or most of the discussion about it, but someone asked whether it was biblical or not. Some of us thought it was, because in the New Testament there were no forced conversions. However, som argued that if a Church of Christ person ever came to the political power to do so and enough people converted to Church of Christ to make it happen they would according to Romans (verses about the government punishing lawbreakers) have every right to ban any other church besides Church of Christ. The reasoning was that the government was approved of God to fight lawbreakers, cheats, ect. If you would not allow a con man to cheat an old lady out of her money and not punish him why would you let a con man teach "false doctrine" i.e. anything not Church of Christ. Sad to say I had my doubts but could not refute his reasoning there. It was the preacher who pressed this point.

Could you imagine a country where the Church of Christ was the state church, only one allowed? Brrrrrrrr!

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't know if my answer helps you understand, but here goes. I live in a small city that is about half black. I know and am friendly with many black people, most of them are Christians. I try to avoid religious conversations with them because I realize how important their church community is for them, but I will give you an example of one conversation I had a few years ago with a black hospice chaplain.

Until I retired recently, I was the only RN in a small long term care facility. One day, I asked a black chaplain who was visiting a hospice patient, what he could do for atheists like myself when we were dying. He was stunned and didn't have an answer, but said he wanted to think about it. Being a professional, he didn't come out and tell me I'm going to hell but I assumed he thought this. We discussed how atheism was becoming more common and I told him about a black atheist organization in Atlanta. He got very excited and said to me, "No, not the Brothers. No. Not the brothers," while shaking his head. "Yes, I told him. Yes. The Brothers." Apparently, it was beyond his comprehension that any of his black brothers could be atheists.

I was raised in a white fundamentalist home, but I know that all hardcore Christians, regardless of ethnicity, honestly believe that non Christians are going to suffer eternally in this place in their imagination, called Hell. They have been brainwashed and for many, the indoctrination will remain with them for the rest of their lives. I was one of the lucky ones that escaped this cruel belief. Perhaps, if you are close enough to this person, you can help him understand why he is wrong. It will only work if he is able to think and is willing to question the things that he has been programmed to believe since childhood. I just wouldn't take what he said to you too personally. It's a cult thing and they are the true victims.

Let us know if you ever speak to him about this. I have often told Christians that I know well, how insulting, irrational and imaginary the things they believe are to me. So far, none of them have changed, but it has made me feel better to be able to tell them how they come across to others. It lets them know how absurd and silly they sound. I tell them that a good god would judge us by our works, not our beliefs, if there was such a thing as god. It blows their minds, I live in the Bible Belt and this type of interaction helps me stay sane. On the other hand, sometimes it's best to simply ignore the stupid things that Christians say, but sometimes I can't stay quiet.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Until I retired recently, I was the only RN in a small long term care facility. One day, I asked a black chaplain who was visiting a hospice patient, what he could do for atheists like myself when we were dying. He was stunned and didn't have an answer, but said he wanted to think about it. Being a professional, he didn't come out and tell me I'm going to hell but I assumed he thought this. We discussed how atheism was becoming more common and I told him about a black atheist organization in Atlanta. He got very excited and said to me, "No, not the Brothers. No. Not the brothers," while shaking his head. "Yes, I told him. Yes. The Brothers." Apparently, it was beyond his comprehension that any of his black brothers could be atheists.

I was raised in a white fundamentalist home, but I know that all hardcore Christians, regardless of ethnicity, honestly believe that non Christians are going to suffer eternally in this place in their imagination, called Hell. They have been brainwashed and for many, the indoctrination will remain with them for the rest of their lives. I was one of the lucky ones that escaped this cruel belief. Perhaps, if you are close enough to this person, you can help him understand why he is wrong. It will only work if he is able to think and is willing to question the things that he has been programmed to believe since childhood. I just wouldn't take what he said to you too personally. It's a cult thing and they are the true victims.

Let us know if you ever speak to him about this. I have often told Christians that I know well, how insulting, irrational and imaginary the things they believe are to me. So far, none of them have changed, but it has made me feel better to be able to tell them how they come across to others. It lets them know how absurd and silly they sound. I tell them that a good god would judge us by our works, not our beliefs, if there was such a thing as god. It blows their minds, I live in the Bible Belt and this type of interaction helps me stay sane. On the other hand, sometimes it's best to simply ignore the stupid things that Christians say, but sometimes I can't stay quiet.

Thank you that was a nice answer - that guy has moved to a different location and a diff job - well we did not communicate much after that talk. He also told me that works don't matter, so what we do in life doesn't matter - just our religion matters. And when i asked how that makes any sense, he kept saying he doesn't make the rules, that's just the way it is. Obviously he is on the "right" side, the side that is being rewarded so he was happy with such rules and "morals"

Not sure if my reference to MLK went home or not - he did fall a bit silent on that

But what you wrote does make sense when you realize the times that these ideas came about - the ancients who gave birth to these religions lived under Kings, sometime very brutal kings - they had to be - it was a very violent world. These were not democratic times - the King/Strong man/Dictator demanded obedience and loyalty and rewarded accordingly. And that was what the ancients had to work with and so when describing the heavens, they described the life they knew and had - a King-like God sits on his throne in the Heavens, rewards his loyal supporters (believers get heaven) and punished the rest (unbelievers get hell)

Simple primitive ideas that made a lot of sense to the ancients living back in the day - you and I would probably agree with such a "God" if we lived back then. And of course, for a proselytizing religion such ideas were Gold! Now they could entice people with the easy life of heaven and threaten others with hell! Drive conversions

What is sad to me is that we, the so-called much more advanced, civilized, educated blindly follow these primitive ideas even today! We don't polish the right shoes to get ahead today, we ask to be treated as individuals, we ask to be judged based on our actions, our accomplishments - whether we go for a job or a promotion or win a contract, we want to do that based on our accomplishments

But yet the dominant religions preach a collective moral - all believers believing in the "right" God will be rewarded and others condemned - collective reward and punishment based simply on belief - that is what Hitler did - he condemned ALL Jews regardless of their individuality. He didn't see them as human beings and these religions are saying the same thing

What ISIS did was not surprising to me - they were simply carrying out the ideas that they were told would happen to non-muslims in the after life

What is sickening is that not even one article-writer or editor referenced the dominant religious ideas when writing about ISIS - they were evil yes, so was Hitler but not one said their ideas were not new - the dominant religions were preaching the same ideas without any opposition for centuries and still do!

Shows the brainwashing power of religion - even the best of us do not seem immune to it

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree with your reply. It's difficult for us to understand how people can continue to be so strongly drawn to a cult that judges those outside of the cult on nothing more than their non belief in the cult. It is sad and it doesn't make sense, which is why my last sentence may not have made sense either. I have pretty much become a determinist in my old age. By believing that we are all merely the products or perhaps, victims of our genetic and environmental heritage and influences, makes it easier to tolerate people. I'm no genius so I could be wrong, although the evidence for determinism is more convincing to me, than for the alternative. By denying free will, I am able to be more tolerant, to accept people as they are and to just thank my own genetic and environmental heritage that I am not them. That philosophy really helped me be a better nurse.

There is always hope, as the environmental influences can always trigger a change. That's how I see it.

 

[Kharakov]

This happened with a co-worker of mine - about the same age - we got along well - an African-American & I am from India - and one day we got to talking religion and then he suddenly says that since I am not Christian, but a Hindu, I am going to Hell. The cool way he says it, so unfeeling, so uncaring was stunning. He actually believed it - gave no thought to my feelings or anything. Coming from an African-American that was rich because i reminded him about MLK's dream - what was it again? That we should not be judged by the color of one's skin but by the strength of one's character? My "friend" would have been very upset when faced with racism - to be followed around in a store, to be abused and discriminated because of his skin color would have made him angry and yet the same guy, the very same guy, was ok with discrimination based on religion!

It's simple. Those who are corrupt achieved technological and socioeconomic superiority first (Christians are a larger group than Jews, better land position than Muslims, Asians, or Indians), and used it to ensure their continued socioeconomic superiority by implementing a plan that erased any vestiges of guilt from their minds, and gave themselves continual socioeconomic security, while forcing the poor into positions in which they do the shit work with little return.

They also networked with other, non Christian nations to make sure that they had corrupt people, willing to betray their own, on top of every nation. So if you aren't a "real Christian", in other words, someone who is willing to force others to do all the crap work so you don't have to do it, you are forced to do the crap work.

In other words "you go to hell" with all the other good people and do all the crap work, with corrupt Christians hanging out alongside you to kill, or force you into bad or discrediting situations if you go against their corruption. Ohh, and they enjoy all the good things in life like drugs, alcohol, pretty woman, sports (through steroids, etc.), fast cars, jets, yachts... while you do the work that maintains their lavish lifestyles. And they don't give a shit that they enslaved you, because they literally have programmed themselves (with the same mind control techniques that they plant "work ethic" in the minds of the poor) to believe that you would have done the same thing to them if you had the power.


If you're in a nation with a Christian majority, and you're not Christian, you are going to hell to do all the shit work. They might let you have a little bit of the good life (enough to string you along with hope)... but you aren't getting nearly as good of a life as them.

Christians in the USA are comprised of 2 groups: fools, and corrupt pieces of shit, and there aren't a lot of fools... there are just a lot of people willing to act like fools to be in a position of socioeconomic superiority.

If you're a Christian, in the USA, you are a piece of shit that deserves to be tortured, than killed. Nobody is stupid enough to believe the shit they say, but they have the guns, and plenty of people are complacent to those pieces of shit because.. well, they prefer being lower middle class to being given to the really fucked up Christians who like to rape and torture people (they willingly live in jails) or being poor. It's not like the poor can band together to fight off Christian corruption, or torture and kill enough of the pieces of shit to make the world a good place.


Think of creating the religion of Christianity like creating a caste system that uses caste systems as an excuse to stay on top of the caste system that you create. The truth is, get rid of socioeconomic striation, or else you're corrupt. The truth is also, those that are corrupt enjoy it, and don't care that they are. Trump card played. In the west, these pieces of shit are getting away with it right in front of the poor, and there is absolutely nothing the poor can do. I know. I am poor by western standards.

 

[J842P]

We recently celebrated his holiday in the US - so the following incident is appropriate and a fascinating look into human psychology or morality or sociology - maybe you guys can tell me

This happened with a co-worker of mine - about the same age - we got along well - an African-American & I am from India - and one day we got to talking religion and then he suddenly says that since I am not Christian, but a Hindu, I am going to Hell. The cool way he says it, so unfeeling, so uncaring was stunning. He actually believed it - gave no thought to my feelings or anything. Coming from an African-American that was rich because i reminded him about MLK's dream - what was it again? That we should not be judged by the color of one's skin but by the strength of one's character? My "friend" would have been very upset when faced with racism - to be followed around in a store, to be abused and discriminated because of his skin color would have made him angry and yet the same guy, the very same guy, was ok with discrimination based on religion!

I would be like the Jew under Hitler - to be set apart because of my religion and sent off to Gas Chambers waiting for me in Hell - Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists and billions of others like us - would put Hitler to shame

So can anyone figure out why the very same person would behave so differently? That his morals would do a 180 degree turn?

I call it the Dichotomy of the Minority and the Majority

The way i figure is that as a black man facing racism, he was a minority - and all minorities speak the same way - they are ALL Enlightened. As a minority lacking power, feeling helpless against evil, he reacts by asking us to raise our morality - to see the human being first, everything else comes second

But then as a Christian, he was no longer a minority! Now, he was with the Majority! Ah, now his ideas changed! Now, suddenly he was no better than a racist

We see that with Muslims today here in the west - as a minority they speak the same language - "We should not judge people by religion, underneath we are all the same. Underneath we are human beings, with loved ones, hopes and dreams". The tell is to check where these Muslims are coming from - from which country? Where they are the majority and see if they behave the same way in their own country and that might tell a different story

So, the story of my "friend" makes me depressed - do our morals and ethics change according to our situation in life? I believe they do - Morals are subjective not objective, we already knew that, but we never realized how subjective we can be

Christopher Hitchen's would frequently talk about how happy most religionists knowing that they are "right" and that infidels will suffer for being "wrong." Part of his overall critique about how religion poisons everything.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2LehsA1dk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[fromderinside]

I believe this thread is proof positive that touch is part of what makes us tend to moratiy. Seeing how others feel touches me very much*

*^{_{would be a derali on science basis for touch thread}}

 

[George S]

I remember that speech. It was moving.

"I have a dream. A dream of a day when my children will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

His dream was about character. Yes, he said, judge me by my character reflected in what I do and not by a group I had no choice in membership.

I, today, have a dream. A dream of a day when my children will not be judged by the color of their white skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream. A dream of a day when each and every citizen has equal opportunity. With equal opportunity -- color blind, race blind, religion blind -- there will be unequal results. The playing field is level. If the best engineers are Asian and the best writers Caucasian, so be it. If the best doctors have Taiwanese names and the best lawyers Jewish names, so be it.

I have a dream. A dream of the day when the original native population is no longer under the control of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

I have a dream. A dream of an environment and society in which our collective grandchildren for generations uncountable will find it a joy to live.

I have a dream. A dream of the day when there is no religion anywhere.

I have a dream.

 

[fromderinside]

George S when i was first exposed to the word zeitgeist I was moved. I was moved when I read your typing of MLK's DC speech and I'm now moved by my memory of his speech as we all sat in mess on the Farragut that warm day in Mayport Florida. Like the news of Kennedy's death I was moved to tears that day to the derision of some there with me at each occasion.

I don't know whether my morals changed those days, but, here I am now, a solid pacifist senior sitting in front of this flat screen responding to your broadcast of speech with and my memory of JFK's death, changed from a patriotic minded youngster then. So based on this testimony I believe my morals changed with great those great personal events. Obviously not scientific, probably just sentimental late night posting. Still .....