Morality without God

[Ramaraksha]

One of the oft-repeated statements from Theists is that a person cannot be moral without belief in God

I offer the following rejoinders:

1. The first is obvious - so without belief in God these same Theists would be running around raping and killing and what-not. Only the threat of punishment and lure of the easy life in Heaven is making them be good - their morals don't come within their hearts but come from above, which leads to......

2. Primitive, ossified societies that find it hard to change to changing times. They remain stuck, backward since the ancient books don't change they are forced to remain as they were back in the day. We see that today in certain islamic countries as they impose islamic law - these laws may have made sense back in the day but today they are hopelessly out of date. The bank of oil is masking a lot of problems in these countries - they insist on not giving opportunities to 50% or more of their population(women) and that means they fall behind other countries, not that other countries are doing such a bang-up job of giving women more opportunities.

3. The scary thing is that anything can be justified - they can kill, murder, rape and say God approved it, their religion says it is ok. I read reports on women captured by ISIS? or some other islamic outfit, that the guys would first pray, yes pray to Allah, before raping these women! Just simply jaw-dropping! God says it is ok to rape - they have gotten the ok from God. But this is a slippery-slope - what else can be justified?

A similar view can be seen in Christianity as they are happy to tell people that God is ever-forgiving. Just cry some croc tears of remorse and nice God will forgive and off they go enjoy Heaven! How nice! What about the victim? Victim who? The victim is twice-raped - "God" it seems couldn't care less for his or her feelings. And neither does the criminal think it is wrong to ask forgiveness from a 3rd party instead of the victim. But asking for forgiveness from the victim poses a problem - the victim won't be an easy mark - a few croc tears of remorse won't do - the victim will demand compensation - now that might be a problem whereas nice God will happily forgive, how nice of him

There have been several killings recently by deranged gun owners - the victims families have said that they are in no mood to forgive the mass killer and that is the right attitude - but again just a religion more than happy to tell everyone what they want to hear - in this case, pandering to the criminals but it works because all of us have done some wrongs at one time or another. Correcting those wrongs is difficult, time-consuming, may cost us money - some cheap croc tears are easy - takes but 2 minutes!

But even as we are shocked by the above, is there a rational explanation to the above? I believe there is - yes. These peoples views of God came from their King, their Master - they made God in the image of their King - that was the society that they had back in the day. Master is always right, obey the master, if master says the sky is green, agree with all your heart and say yes sir, the sky is green

There is a slave mentality in these religions and that is why the rapist prays to God and gets his ok to rape. As long as Master says it is ok to rape, then it is ok - only Master's word counts. Same thing with forgiveness - Master has forgiven us - we are done. No need to apologize to the victim nor make amends

 

[another1]

so without belief in God these same Theists would be running around raping and killing and what-not

They'd probably just rape and kill a little more, without Religion. Not sure, but removing one Religion from the mix makes raping and killing numbers in Religion waaaay lower. I've never met someone who justified rape using religion. But true I have conveniently heard a lot about that in news lately for some reason. Not denying that it has always happened, jus disappointed in how something so tragic is only brought to outsiders when it is necessary for them to know for the wrong reason.

these laws may have made sense back in the day but today they are hopelessly out of date.

This may not be as relevant as you'd like but that fact is that pretty much all laws are out of date. Religious laws I guess are no exception. Man laws have more influence on Religion than the other way around if you ask me. At least in my field of view. I don't have much interest in knowing about Islam, but I'll say again, remove Islam from this and the rape-kill factor goes down kinda low. Christian laws aren't even obeyed in the South. I don't see a strict set of laws laid down. I see a lot of sweaty people who want to think they're nice. They disobey every law of the Bible but they would do it if they'd never heard of God anyway. They would just find another way to cope with emotions that tell them they're bastards. At least you can corral them all in one place and pasteurize them safely in this way. Seeking a good therapist instead of going to a Church would make more sense but the key word here is South.

A similar view can be seen in Christianity as they are happy to tell people that God is ever-forgiving.

Christianity doesn't motivate people to kill, and it takes a lot of skill to justify killing, using only the words in the Bible. Way less than necessary in Islam, where the "similar view" is found. I think we can find marvelous ways to be held unaccountable without using Religion. To your point about Christianity being responsible for making murderers become murderers because it forgives murderers... Cutting off an arm or some testicles does make more sense. That is what I'd want, if someone I knew got physically raped.

American courts use a Christian God Bible to make sure that suspected rapists aren't lying. Rapists swear on the Bible and then they are usually sentenced to somewhere to get raped for a while. That seems fair and it seems to be working pretty well in my opinion. I'm thinking that a person bad enough to justify rape with religion is likely to be a lil rapey in the first place. You may agree that religion that justifies rape is just sort of oxymoronic. Rapists who justify physical rape by using religion aren't a part of my world so I don't know.

the victims families have said that they are in no mood to forgive the mass killer and that is the right attitude

The victims should band together and kill those mass killers on a massive scale? Maybe that wasn't what you meant. One cool thing about Christianity is DOOM. Killers are coming to get us. But if we kill them, that means that more killers are coming for someone else. I don't think they need to understand why that does and doesn't make sense, as long as they're too afraid to kill somebody. Luckily I don't have a lot of murderers stalking me. I've dodged the bullet so far.

Master is always right, obey the master, if master says the sky is green, agree with all your heart and say yes sir, the sky is green

I think that is a wide complaint and Religion is a symptom of what you're complaining about there. Animals in the forest can't seem to move past the habit of raping each other just to say hello, but humans are at least progressing a little faster. Yet animals couldn't understand the concept of slavery, so my point isn't too relevant. They consume their own regurgitation after eating each other alive and they use surprise-anal-sex like small talk, but they're not deranged enough to come up with something as insane as slavery. Hopefully that will never happen because it would be so tragic.

There is a slave mentality in these religions and that is why the rapist prays to God and gets his ok to rape.

A rapist gets his ok to rape by being a piece of shit. Like I said, people who pray before they rape probably have a rapey nature to begin with. Raping is raping weather done before or after prayer I suppose. Thing is that Christians don't use God as an excuse to do it, and if they need to confess about it to feel like a better person, I see no actual problem with that - as long as they have been satisfactorily raped in prison enough already.

 

[Keith&Co.]

One of the oft-repeated statements from Theists is that a person cannot be moral without belief in God

I offer the following rejoinders:

1. The first is obvious - so without belief in God these same Theists would be running around raping and killing and what-not.

I think a far simpler rejoinder would be to note how many theists do not support slavery. The god of The Books gives rules for acquiring, releasing, selling, and punishing slaves (and for punishing people who beat their slaves to death). The whole idea that slavery is bad is a moral position the believers got from someplace extrabiblical.
No where does OT God say, "Oh, hey, people have rights, don't enslave them."

No one observes all the rules set down by God in His Word. They're using something other than biblically-inspired morality to pick and choose the morals they adopt and the morals they'll make some rationale for abandoning.

Either way, they've acquired a moral code from someplace other than their divine sponsor.

IF anyone's daughter is raped and they want to shoot the rapist rather than make him pay virgin-price to marry the raped daughter, then they do not use God as the basis for their morality.

 

[another1]

One reason I don't care to know much about Islam would be a phrase like "virgin-price". It sounds like a positive thing somewhere like Vegas but when I think of Syria I get bad feelings about exploited women who aren't allowed to use their hands to eat, or whatever it is they are doing to them over there.

 

[Ramaraksha]

One of the oft-repeated statements from Theists is that a person cannot be moral without belief in God

I offer the following rejoinders:

1. The first is obvious - so without belief in God these same Theists would be running around raping and killing and what-not.

I think a far simpler rejoinder would be to note how many theists do not support slavery. The god of The Books gives rules for acquiring, releasing, selling, and punishing slaves (and for punishing people who beat their slaves to death). The whole idea that slavery is bad is a moral position the believers got from someplace extrabiblical.
No where does OT God say, "Oh, hey, people have rights, don't enslave them."

No one observes all the rules set down by God in His Word. They're using something other than biblically-inspired morality to pick and choose the morals they adopt and the morals they'll make some rationale for abandoning.

Either way, they've acquired a moral code from someplace other than their divine sponsor.

IF anyone's daughter is raped and they want to shoot the rapist rather than make him pay virgin-price to marry the raped daughter, then they do not use God as the basis for their morality.

Yes and nowhere do these books say - racism is wrong, sexism is wrong, ageism is wrong - all taught to us by modern society, without the need for a magic Master telling us what to do

"No one observes all the rules set down by God in His Word. They're using something other than biblically-inspired morality to pick and choose the morals they adopt and the morals they'll make some rationale for abandoning." ???? All ideas come from life - nothing came from invisible magic beings - all morals written in holy books were the thoughts of ancients based on the life they led then at that time - at that time slavery was not thought to be evil, hence the different teachings on how to treat slaves etc

Simple primitive ideas from simpler times

 

[Ramaraksha]

Basically these religions were born when Kings ruled with an iron fist - they were the masters of the land, their word was THE LAW! Religions made God in the most powerful man they knew then, the King. Obey the King/Master and be rewarded with the good life, disobey and pay the price. Subjects were more like slaves/servants blindly obeying Master's orders. Master is always right - it's not about discussing about an issue and coming to an agreement on doing the right thing, if the King/Master says this is the right thing to do, the slave did it - no questions asked

Master says it is ok to kill, in fact, master orders it - it must be done. Anything can be justified - that is how if you saw a man on the street yelling that he is going to kill his kids, you would call the cops and they would lock this nut up. But put him in a holy book, ready to kill his son and suddenly he is lauded for obeying God, the Master!

Morals cease to come from reason and thought, just as might makes right, whatever Master says is right and the right thing to do

Hence yes the rapist wants to rape, that is why those poor women were abducted in the first place, but if there even a teeny bit of conscience telling him that it is the wrong thing to do, the slave mind will silence it - Master okeyed it, we must obey - now rape, murder becomes the right thing to do

"The victims should band together and kill those mass killers on a massive scale?" no that is not what i meant. Just imagine you being a victim - your loved one was killed by a creep - will you be so willing to forgive him? Can you understand if other members of your family may not be so willing to?

"Thing is that Christians don't use God as an excuse to do it, and if they need to confess about it to feel like a better person, I see no actual problem with that" Biased a bit? Lots of killings went on in the past in the name of religion by christians. Jews suffered for 2,000 years - Hitler didn't start the hate, his pogrom against them was not the first, but christians have done a good job of making sure Hitler alone would get all the blame - the too many willing people who were more than happy to kill jews swept under the table. Because the underlying cause has never been addressed, hate against jews continues to this day, nurtured for 2,000 years by the church and they will continue to do so and the media will continue to blame Hitler and Nazism

As for confession - how is it any different from unloading before a psychiatrist? The murderer, rapist, pedophile feels better? I am sure their victims must be relieved - again a strange blind spot when it comes to the victim

"Rapists swear on the Bible and then they are usually sentenced to somewhere to get raped for a while. That seems fair and it seems to be working pretty well in my opinion" And eye for an eye? So, someone runs over your dog or mail-box, you will run over their dog or mail-box? Someone rapes your loved one, you get to rape theirs? What you espouse is Vengeance, not Justice

 

[Keith&Co.]

Basically these religions were born when Kings ruled

Getting to be kind of a one-trick pony, aren't you?

 

[iolo]

Morality without God

Most of the Americans who say they believe in 'God' seem to have no morality other than self-enrichment, and many of us who seem to manage without were brought up in some 'religious' belief or other, so the issue is extremely complicated. I think that, basically, very naïve people just accept the general social norm: get rich, show off to the Joneses, die, then have a big funeral, whereas others, more sophisticated, look for something that gives greater long-term satisfaction. Most people learn a sort of basic decency but are always tempted by capitalist beads and bangles, whereas more sensible people learn self-respect, I suppose, and think further.

 

[rousseau]

Morality can only exist when there is no cause to be immoral or when there is a human framework to punish immorality. The only thing God has to do with morality is that it acted as a justification for ancient moral systems. Nowadays 'thou shalt not kill' means 'don't kill other people or you'll go to prison', not 'don't kill other people or God will send you to hell'.

Interestingly though, the law is the same regardless.

 

[Learner]

"Thing is that Christians don't use God as an excuse to do it, and if they need to confess about it to feel like a better person, I see no actual problem with that" Biased a bit? Lots of killings went on in the past in the name of religion by christians. Jews suffered for 2,000 years - Hitler didn't start the hate, his pogrom against them was not the first, but christians have done a good job of making sure Hitler alone would get all the blame - the too many willing people who were more than happy to kill jews swept under the table. Because the underlying cause has never been addressed, hate against jews continues to this day, nurtured for 2,000 years by the church and they will continue to do so and the media will continue to blame Hitler and Nazism

I understand what you're saying and there are those claiming to be christians who do atrocious things,but I will say to what seems to be the 'theme' of your post; Hating Jews is 'not' the way of Chrisitanity according to Jesus. Jews suffered for 2000 years.Christians by Jesus's teachings have also suffered. The pharisees hated Jeus and his followers,the Romans hated Jesus and his followers, and lest we forget; It is 'people as a whole' who have suffered far more longer than 2000 years,with or without religion.

As for confession - how is it any different from unloading before a psychiatrist? The murderer, rapist, pedophile feels better? I am sure their victims must be relieved - again a strange blind spot when it comes to the victim

"Rapists swear on the Bible and then they are usually sentenced to somewhere to get raped for a while. That seems fair and it seems to be working pretty well in my opinion" And eye for an eye? So, someone runs over your dog or mail-box, you will run over their dog or mail-box? Someone rapes your loved one, you get to rape theirs? What you espouse is Vengeance, not Justice

According to Jesus's Chrisitanity. Hitler and his like will not get away even if they think they'll escape justice by death.

 

[another1]

- at that time slavery was not thought to be evil, hence the different teachings on how to treat slaves etc

Slaves are in shipping containers as we speak, and in the name of no God. That seems like a malevolent but natural sort of conspiracy that is in Religion, but I don't think Religion is the source of that malevolence. I think Religion (like all things) is a victim of it.

Simple primitive ideas from simpler times

Simpler primitive ideas like drilling a few more breathing holes in a shipping container? Modern slavery could benefit from more religion if you ask me.

Modern Religious slavery isn't quite modern and I can't speak on that because it is old stuff that makes no sense. I personally don't care that slaves are being treated differently in heavily corrupt Religious places. Maybe what they need is a better guide on how to treat the random, generic slave of any race, nationality or Religion. To increase the chances that an extra pack of hot dogs be tossed into in shipping containers before voyage and whatnot.

Biased a bit? Lots of killings went on in the past in the name of religion by christians. Jews suffered for 2,000 years - Hitler didn't start the hate, his pogrom against them was not the first, but christians have done a good job of making sure Hitler alone would get all the blame - the too many willing people who were more than happy to kill jews swept under the table. Because the underlying cause has never been addressed, hate against jews continues to this day, nurtured for 2,000 years by the church and they will continue to do so and the media will continue to blame Hitler and Nazism

Christians blame Hitler for the Holouscaust? The audacity...

I read that paragraph twice, and I feel like you may have phrased something wrong. I'm a bad reader so forgive me if I didn't get the point. What I take from it is that Christians are evil because people like Hitler exist.

As for confession - how is it any different from unloading before a psychiatrist? The murderer, rapist, pedophile feels better? I am sure their victims must be relieved - again a strange blind spot when it comes to the victim

Humans have the habit of feeling guilty all the time. Especially after killing, and/or raping. Some would go crazy if they didn't confess in some way. Some people just stare in the mirror and repeat the word sorry for an hour after a fresh killing. Whatever it takes to calm them down, I say. We don't want them going crazy, because they might become dangerous to society. My town has booths set up. You can admit your crimes and say some words. Then POW! A few weeks of remission before the natural, and non God-related conspiracy moves them out to find more victims.

As for their surviving victims - some of them find comfort in God. Some of them actually find the strength to forgive, too. That may be a good thing. I do think it is ironic that a rapist can confess in the same booth that it's victim uses - five minutes after the ordeal. But don't hate the player hate the game. God makes no difference, Ramaraksha. To a God hater, that should make sense.

And eye for an eye? So, someone runs over your dog or mail-box, you will run over their dog or mail-box? Someone rapes your loved one, you get to rape theirs? What you espouse is Vengeance, not Justice

God isn't responsible when people assume the right to take vengeance. A puppy is born in every 5 seconds in the alley behind me, and mailboxes are made of trees. Personally I don't freak out if someone is damaging my property or animal friends. Those things are replaceble, and my town fines puppy drowners accordingly. I never made a case for justifying anything with Religion. Quite the opposite actually.

According to Jesus's Chrisitanity. Hitler and his like will not get away even if they think they'll escape justice by death.

That is the vibe I get from most Christian people I know, Learner. I'd like to think that he is suffering terribly in hell, just like they do. but part of me just wants him to be nonexistent. When I read hitler books, he became more evil everyday. When I stopped, he didn't become less evil, but there was less evil in my own life. I'd still vote for a hell, if I were on the committee - just to make people like him suffer.

 

[Bronzeage]

I have found that Morality and Moral Codes are some of the most poorly understood aspects of human society, at least it certainly seems so on this forum.

Moral Codes define how people who live in a group will cooperate. Every culture has one, or it would quickly disintegrate. The specifics of any Moral Code are determined by the environment. In a place where food is plentiful and life is fairly easy, there won't be a lot of rules about the sharing or stealing of food. There won't be a lot of rules about stealing, in general. In a sparse place, where food and other resources are scarce, stealing, and what to do with thieves will consume a lot of the Moral Code. This will extend to how each smaller group within the group can accumulate property, the relationships between smaller groups, and all of that, down to who may have sex with who, and what is involved of approving of these sorts of things. It all has to do with resources.

Every Moral Code contains an implicit definition of who is included in the group, and who is not. Those who are not, usually fall under the vague label of "Unbelievers." This means they have a slightly different Moral Code. The differences are slight, because human needs never differ by a lot.

The figures of power and authority always operate under the sanction of the Moral Code, which makes it in their interest to maintain it, even though times and conditions change. A Moral Code for a people of nomadic sheepherders, which was created in an arid land, may not work as well for an urban society, which has plenty of food and hot and cold running water.

Since a Moral Code only governs interactions within the group, outsiders are not covered. This means it is perfectly okay to steal the sheep of unbelievers, or in more modern times, steal their women and force them to be sex slaves.

War is the ultimate definition of outsiders. The first concrete rule of every Moral Code is "Don't kill people in the group." That is pretty straight forward. When we declare war, which is a strange expression, we declare that some number of people are not in our group, and it's permitted to kill them, even if there is no apparent reason to do so. They are so far out of the group, it's permissible to kill the wrong people in pursuit of killing them.

We spend a lot of time blaming this nonsense on God, or belief in God, or whatever name is chosen, as if any of it would stop, if we could talk people out of believing in God, or the various Gods. It's a ridiculous thought. This has nothing to do with God, other than humans like to claim authority from him.

The real problem is we are at a strange time in human history. This is the first time we have had world wide communication between all groups. This has led a lot of people to believe there is only one group, simply the human group. This becomes a problem when we confront people who wish to remain a subgroup. We'll probably work out the kinks in a thousand years, or so.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Basically these religions were born when Kings ruled

Getting to be kind of a one-trick pony, aren't you?

When people resort to personal insults it means they have lost the argument

You could say that about Atheists - all about denying God - cheap shots.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Morality can only exist when there is no cause to be immoral or when there is a human framework to punish immorality. The only thing God has to do with morality is that it acted as a justification for ancient moral systems. Nowadays 'thou shalt not kill' means 'don't kill other people or you'll go to prison', not 'don't kill other people or God will send you to hell'.

Interestingly though, the law is the same regardless.

Yes back in the day there was little law and order - imagine living in a little village - the King was far away - he was the protection and one day some goons ride into town - kill, rape - it's not like today where we can use fingerprints and ids to track criminals down. Most people got away with their crimes - hence God invoked as the law-giver - they had nothing else to fall back on - to comfort themselves - to threaten those who would do them harm

 

[Ramaraksha]

I understand what you're saying and there are those claiming to be christians who do atrocious things,but I will say to what seems to be the 'theme' of your post; Hating Jews is 'not' the way of Chrisitanity according to Jesus. Jews suffered for 2000 years.Christians by Jesus's teachings have also suffered. The pharisees hated Jeus and his followers,the Romans hated Jesus and his followers, and lest we forget; It is 'people as a whole' who have suffered far more longer than 2000 years,with or without religion.

As for confession - how is it any different from unloading before a psychiatrist? The murderer, rapist, pedophile feels better? I am sure their victims must be relieved - again a strange blind spot when it comes to the victim

"Rapists swear on the Bible and then they are usually sentenced to somewhere to get raped for a while. That seems fair and it seems to be working pretty well in my opinion" And eye for an eye? So, someone runs over your dog or mail-box, you will run over their dog or mail-box? Someone rapes your loved one, you get to rape theirs? What you espouse is Vengeance, not Justice

According to Jesus's Chrisitanity. Hitler and his like will not get away even if they think they'll escape justice by death.

My point is that the media and westerners never mention the hate under which jews suffered for 2,000 years. I am Hindu and i am sure if there is evil leader who comes up who lets loose mass killings of lower castes, will Hinduism not be blamed? Of course it should - the teachings have been kept alive, the hate has been kept alive and an evil leader just took advantage of the prevailing hate. That is exactly what Hitler did - he took advantage of the prevailing hate. The media and westerners don't want to point the finger at religion - they have made it all about Hitler and Nazism - I am not saying He is not evil, far from it, but he is not the entire story - as the media keeps ignoring the real culprit the hate is kept alive even today

"According to Jesus's Chrisitanity. Hitler and his like will not get away even if they think they'll escape justice by death" This is where i disagree - I don't see the point of torturing Hitler - how does that help those that he killed? It is just our way of satisfying ourselves - it is vengeance, not justice. And again, it lets those who were more than happy to help him get away - all the hate nurtured by the church all these years is ignored by focusing on just one person. As the saying goes - it takes a village to raise a child - lots of hands covered with blood, not just Hitler's

 

[Bronzeage]

Morality can only exist when there is no cause to be immoral or when there is a human framework to punish immorality. The only thing God has to do with morality is that it acted as a justification for ancient moral systems. Nowadays 'thou shalt not kill' means 'don't kill other people or you'll go to prison', not 'don't kill other people or God will send you to hell'.

Interestingly though, the law is the same regardless.

Yes back in the day there was little law and order - imagine living in a little village - the King was far away - he was the protection and one day some goons ride into town - kill, rape - it's not like today where we can use fingerprints and ids to track criminals down. Most people got away with their crimes - hence God invoked as the law-giver - they had nothing else to fall back on - to comfort themselves - to threaten those who would do them harm

That is a storybook scenario, which is very improbable, except for the rape, pillage, and plunder.

A King who is too far away to enforce his law and collect his taxes, is by definition, not the King of that particular place. If a King who could command a troupe of mounted soldiers was not intimidating enough, the threat of hell and damnation is not much of a deterrent.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Christians blame Hitler for the Holouscaust? The audacity...

I read that paragraph twice, and I feel like you may have phrased something wrong. I'm a bad reader so forgive me if I didn't get the point. What I take from it is that Christians are evil because people like Hitler exist.

No way am i saying that Hitler is not responsible nor that he is not evil but there is a bigger picture here - why were countries like Poland and Latvia so eager to comply? So eager to kill? That's like saying the mass killings in Rwanda were all due to one person - you see what is happening here - by blaming one person, the vast majority can be seen as guilt-free - that is the trick behind this. Turkey didn't get this memo - they had 3 leaders who led the killings of the Armenians - but Turks as a whole get the blame, which is how it should be. Jews suffered for 2,000 years - the word Ghetto comes from hate against jews - being confined to their quarters - pogroms, mass killings of jews happened quite a bit before Hitler - pray tell, did all that hate just disappear by the time Hitler came along?

The problem here is that more the media and intellectuals ignore this problem, the hate will continue to fester - France is being emptied of its jews - still Hitler?

As for their surviving victims - some of them find comfort in God. Some of them actually find the strength to forgive, too. That may be a good thing. I do think it is ironic that a rapist can confess in the same booth that it's victim uses - five minutes after the ordeal. But don't hate the player hate the game. God makes no difference, Ramaraksha. To a God hater, that should make sense.

It's not about God - it's about what religion is teaching - to confess in a dark alley and think that one has done something important is raping the victim twice-over. Confession is good, but it is only a start - unfortunately religion has taught that it is all one has to do - and that is a problem. If your child breaks a friends toy and is remorseful, is he done? of course not - he has to buy his friend a new toy. His remorse doesn't help the friend get his toy back - again a strange disregard for the victim

God isn't responsible when people assume the right to take vengeance. A puppy is born in every 5 seconds in the alley behind me, and mailboxes are made of trees. Personally I don't freak out if someone is damaging my property or animal friends. Those things are replaceble, and my town fines puppy drowners accordingly. I never made a case for justifying anything with Religion. Quite the opposite actually.

Aaaah! Animals are replaceble - what a sick thought. We are one type of animal too you know. We may have a disconnect here - i am against suffering as a whole, you only seem to care if it happens to your loved ones?

What we are talking about are religious morals - an eye for an eye is primitive, backward - there is a reason why when someone runs over your mail box the judge doesn't say go run your car over his. There is a difference between Vengeance and Justice - but vengeance is far quicker, more satisfying and that is what we have to fight against

Think of the criminal being your loved one - she hits someone accidentally with her car - should that other person do the same to your loved one?

When I stopped, he didn't become less evil, but there was less evil in my own life. I'd still vote for a hell, if I were on the committee - just to make people like him suffer.

Then you become no better than him. Hate will fill your heart - in some islamic countries they cut off hands and legs of criminals - a better way?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Yes back in the day there was little law and order - imagine living in a little village - the King was far away - he was the protection and one day some goons ride into town - kill, rape - it's not like today where we can use fingerprints and ids to track criminals down. Most people got away with their crimes - hence God invoked as the law-giver - they had nothing else to fall back on - to comfort themselves - to threaten those who would do them harm

That is a storybook scenario, which is very improbable, except for the rape, pillage, and plunder.

A King who is too far away to enforce his law and collect his taxes, is by definition, not the King of that particular place. If a King who could command a troupe of mounted soldiers was not intimidating enough, the threat of hell and damnation is not much of a deterrent.

??? storybook scenario? what are you talking about? It doesn't take much imagination to think of how people lived back in the day - even today in villages little farm houses surrounded by huge farms - even today some criminals can rape and kill a farmer without anyone knowing. Back in the day - Remember no phones, no internet, no way to call for help - there is a reason why people back in the day armed themselves

A King with a mounted troupe? Again what? did you really write this? Even today with all the fast cars and phones, if you call for help, you think the police will come in time? And you think the King lives right around the corner with all his troops ready to help?

 

[Ramaraksha]

"A King who is too far away to enforce his law and collect his taxes, is by definition, not the King of that particular place" - you miss the point here - it's not about whether the king is legitimate or not - it's about the total lack of law and order that our ancients suffered under. Life was quite terrible back in the day - you and i if we could go back may not last a day

 

[Valjean]

Bronzeage makes some cogent points.

Modern civilization, with its huge societies and multicultural demographics, grates on the tribalism and differential moral consideration hard-wired into our psychology over millions of years as hunter-gatherers. We're not likely to overcome this tribalism till we recognize its dysfunctional footprint in our own attitudes and behaviors.