• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

More non-religious non-conflict in moderate Muslim nation

Metaphor

Banned
Banned
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
12,378
From SMH

Jakarta: A minority Muslim group has been ordered to convert to Sunni Islam or be expelled from Bangka island, off the coast of Sumatra, in the latest religious crackdown in Indonesia.

Ahmadiyah identify as Muslim and follow the teachings of the Koran but regard an Indian preacher, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, as a "messiah" who followed the Prophet Muhammad, a belief considered heretical by some Muslims.

In a letter seen by Fairfax Media, Bangka Island's most senior bureaucrat, Fery Insani, says: "The Ahmadiyah congregation are not allowed to spread their religion. Ahmadiyah followers in Srimenanti village must immediately repent in accordance with Islamic sharia that there is no prophet after the prophet Muhammad." He said if they did not abide by this a meeting had decided they must immediately leave Bangka and return to their place of origin.

The threatened expulsion comes as former members of Gafatar – a religious minority group labelled a "deviant sect" in Indonesia – were forcibly evicted from West Kalimantan last week when their homes were burned down by a rampaging mob.

Asro Matnur, an Ahmadiyah from Bangka island, said tensions began when the Ahmadiyah community distributed beef to their neighbours during Idul Adha, a religious holiday celebrated by Muslims worldwide.

"We did that without preaching about Ahmadiyah," he said.

"But later on a local government official came to us and said that we violated the agreement of religious harmony that we should not preach our faith to people of a different faith."

Mr Asro said Bangka regent Tarmizi Saat told them: "If you don't leave, we will not be responsible for what happens."

He did not know what this meant but feared anarchists could "bring down our homes".

"If that happens, why is it us who are blamed? We don't violate any law but it is us who will be arrested."

...

In 2008 the former Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono government announced a decree restricting Ahmadiyah activities outside of Ahmadi communities.

Following the decree, three Ahmadiyah were killed by a frenzied group of Islamists in Cikeusik in 2011, while hundreds of onlookers cheered.

Professor Tim Lindsey, director of the Centre for Indonesian Law, Islam and Society at Melbourne University, said the cases of persecution of so-called deviant sects and minority groups had increased markedly post Suharto.

"There has been a rise of more assertive conservative Islamic groups, which now have much more influence on government," Dr Lindsey said. Indonesia's top Islamic clerical body, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI), had been particularly aggressive against these groups, with a pattern of issuing fatwas.

"They get declared deviant and then communities are attacked, houses get burned down or worse. Often the leaders are prosecuted for blasphemy and their followers unable to return to their homes. The police and local authorities are often unwilling to act to protect them. It is now sadly predictable and has happened dozens of times," Dr Lindsey said.

"It reflects the rise of conservative Islamic orthodox Sunni views."

Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. Nobody has ever done anything in the name of religion. Indonesia is a perfect example of how there's no religious conflict in the world's most populous Muslim nation. Also, it's racist to Arabs to criticise Islam, and Indonesia is 100% Arab.
 
How extremist of you to find any fault with those who want to impose their version of Islam on the rest of society. Islamism is simply one valid viewpoint among a variety of options. At least according to human rights "activist" Sara Saleh, Islamist apologist regressive leftist who criticized Maajid Nawaz for his secular views recently on The Drum:

[Youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc-_i_eTzJY[/youtube]
 
From SMH

Jakarta: A minority Muslim group has been ordered to convert to Sunni Islam or be expelled from Bangka island, off the coast of Sumatra, in the latest religious crackdown in Indonesia.

Ahmadiyah identify as Muslim and follow the teachings of the Koran but regard an Indian preacher, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, as a "messiah" who followed the Prophet Muhammad, a belief considered heretical by some Muslims.

In a letter seen by Fairfax Media, Bangka Island's most senior bureaucrat, Fery Insani, says: "The Ahmadiyah congregation are not allowed to spread their religion. Ahmadiyah followers in Srimenanti village must immediately repent in accordance with Islamic sharia that there is no prophet after the prophet Muhammad." He said if they did not abide by this a meeting had decided they must immediately leave Bangka and return to their place of origin.

The threatened expulsion comes as former members of Gafatar – a religious minority group labelled a "deviant sect" in Indonesia – were forcibly evicted from West Kalimantan last week when their homes were burned down by a rampaging mob.

Asro Matnur, an Ahmadiyah from Bangka island, said tensions began when the Ahmadiyah community distributed beef to their neighbours during Idul Adha, a religious holiday celebrated by Muslims worldwide.

"We did that without preaching about Ahmadiyah," he said.

"But later on a local government official came to us and said that we violated the agreement of religious harmony that we should not preach our faith to people of a different faith."

Mr Asro said Bangka regent Tarmizi Saat told them: "If you don't leave, we will not be responsible for what happens."

He did not know what this meant but feared anarchists could "bring down our homes".

"If that happens, why is it us who are blamed? We don't violate any law but it is us who will be arrested."

...

In 2008 the former Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono government announced a decree restricting Ahmadiyah activities outside of Ahmadi communities.

Following the decree, three Ahmadiyah were killed by a frenzied group of Islamists in Cikeusik in 2011, while hundreds of onlookers cheered.

Professor Tim Lindsey, director of the Centre for Indonesian Law, Islam and Society at Melbourne University, said the cases of persecution of so-called deviant sects and minority groups had increased markedly post Suharto.

"There has been a rise of more assertive conservative Islamic groups, which now have much more influence on government," Dr Lindsey said. Indonesia's top Islamic clerical body, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI), had been particularly aggressive against these groups, with a pattern of issuing fatwas.

"They get declared deviant and then communities are attacked, houses get burned down or worse. Often the leaders are prosecuted for blasphemy and their followers unable to return to their homes. The police and local authorities are often unwilling to act to protect them. It is now sadly predictable and has happened dozens of times," Dr Lindsey said.

"It reflects the rise of conservative Islamic orthodox Sunni views."

Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. Nobody has ever done anything in the name of religion. Indonesia is a perfect example of how there's no religious conflict in the world's most populous Muslim nation. Also, it's racist to Arabs to criticise Islam, and Indonesia is 100% Arab.
Assuming there is a point, what is it?
 
Assuming there is a point, what is it?

I posted a series of statements in response to the article. I would call the statements 'satire', except that they are regarded as literally true by some of the alleged freethinkers on this board. I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam. There should be no shelter from criticism for people who look at a conflict unmistakeably fuelled by religion and then blithely imagine that it isn't.
 
How extremist of you to find any fault with those who want to impose their version of Islam on the rest of society. Islamism is simply one valid viewpoint among a variety of options. At least according to human rights "activist" Sara Saleh, Islamist apologist regressive leftist who criticized Maajid Nawaz for his secular views recently on The Drum:

She was incoherent, no wonder Nawaz was baffled.
 
Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. Nobody has ever done anything in the name of religion. Indonesia is a perfect example of how there's no religious conflict in the world's most populous Muslim nation. Also, it's racist to Arabs to criticise Islam, and Indonesia is 100% Arab.

Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

Do you know the history of Indonesia over the last 50 years?
 
Assuming there is a point, what is it?

I posted a series of statements in response to the article. I would call the statements 'satire', except that they are regarded as literally true by some of the alleged freethinkers on this board. I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam. There should be no shelter from criticism for people who look at a conflict unmistakeably fuelled by religion and then blithely imagine that it isn't.
i seriously doubt that those statements are regarded as literally true by anyone.
 
Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. Nobody has ever done anything in the name of religion. Indonesia is a perfect example of how there's no religious conflict in the world's most populous Muslim nation. Also, it's racist to Arabs to criticise Islam, and Indonesia is 100% Arab.

Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

Do you know the history of Indonesia over the last 50 years?

Nothing anywhere is in 'perfect isolation'.

But once again, you've stepped up to the plate and protested in exactly the way I predicted. The more blatantly religiously fuelled a conflict is, the more eagerly you search for non-religious factors.

But let me guess; the conflict is actually something to do with capitalism.

I could not parody you, untermensche.
 
I posted a series of statements in response to the article. I would call the statements 'satire', except that they are regarded as literally true by some of the alleged freethinkers on this board. I fully expect untermensche and Warpoet to believe, or at least profess belief, that this conflict has nothing to do with Islam. There should be no shelter from criticism for people who look at a conflict unmistakeably fuelled by religion and then blithely imagine that it isn't.
i seriously doubt that those statements are regarded as literally true by anyone.

untermensche has just implied that this particular conflict has nothing to do with religion.

If untermensche believes that religion is the main factor or any kind of factor at all, I want to see him say so. I want to see him say 'this conflict is a religious conflict'.

But I don't suppose he will. Because when members of one religious group under the command and blessing of their religious leaders form mobs in the name of their religion and drive out other religious groups, that has nothing to do with religion.
 
Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

I see an endless sea of conflict and persecution across the Islamic world, and the only thing that all these people and countries have in common is Islam. Whether it's Wahhabist Islam under absolute monarchs governing Arabs, or Islam in ethnically Persian countries, or Islam in ethnically diverse Indonesia, or Islamists in Australia. None of these people have a common ethnicity or history; the countries in question have different economic systems and differing amounts of wealth.
 
Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

I see an endless sea of conflict and persecution across the Islamic world, and the only thing that all these people and countries have in common is Islam. Whether it's Wahhabist Islam under absolute monarchs governing Arabs, or Islam in ethnically Persian countries, or Islam in ethnically diverse Indonesia, or Islamists in Australia. None of these people have a common ethnicity or history; the countries in question have different economic systems and differing amounts of wealth.

And what about influences beyond Islam?

In Indonesia what about the genocide in 1965 and 66? What effect does that have on the society, even today?

In the Middle East, what about the US invasion of Iraq which quickly turned into a regime of torture?

Of course religion is in the mix, but it is only one element. It can act as a fuel if fires are lit by massive terror.
 
Repeat: This conflict has nothing to do with religion. Nobody has ever done anything in the name of religion. Indonesia is a perfect example of how there's no religious conflict in the world's most populous Muslim nation. Also, it's racist to Arabs to criticise Islam, and Indonesia is 100% Arab.

Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

Do you know the history of Indonesia over the last 50 years?

The colonists moved out and then the Indonesian government became the local religio-nationalistic hegemon. What do you know of Borneo, the Papauan people, or the Second World War II?
 
i seriously doubt that those statements are regarded as literally true by anyone.

untermensche has just implied that this particular conflict has nothing to do with religion.
I think you are confusing inference with implication, but I could be wrong. I seriously doubt anyone thinks that Indonesians are 100% Arab. While I think this latest outrage has much to do with religion, I do not think it is due solely to religion, because, IMO, these matters seldom are caused by a single factor.
 
I see an endless sea of conflict and persecution across the Islamic world, and the only thing that all these people and countries have in common is Islam. Whether it's Wahhabist Islam under absolute monarchs governing Arabs, or Islam in ethnically Persian countries, or Islam in ethnically diverse Indonesia, or Islamists in Australia. None of these people have a common ethnicity or history; the countries in question have different economic systems and differing amounts of wealth.

And what about influences beyond Islam?

In Indonesia what about the genocide in 1965 and 66? What effect does that have on the society, even today?

In the Middle East, what about the US invasion of Iraq which quickly turned into a regime of torture?

Of course religion is in the mix, but it is only one element. It can act as a fuel if fires are lit by massive terror.

When group A tells group B to convert to group A's religion or be exiled, it is nothing short of ludicrous to imagine that the conflict isn't fuelled by and about religion.
 
untermensche has just implied that this particular conflict has nothing to do with religion.
I think you are confusing inference with implication, but I could be wrong. I seriously doubt anyone thinks that Indonesians are 100% Arab. While I think this latest outrage has much to do with religion, I do not think it is due solely to religion, because, IMO, these matters seldom are caused by a single factor.

untermensche implied it when he responded by asking me about the history of Indonesia and saying nothing about religion.

Arabs are a tiny minority in Indonesia; that particular statement I made really was satire, calling out mindless apologists who equate criticism of Islam with racism.

Of course no complex social phenomenon is solely due to a single factor. And yet the more obviously a conflict is religious in nature, the more deafening the chants from the denial brigade.
 
And what about influences beyond Islam?

In Indonesia what about the genocide in 1965 and 66? What effect does that have on the society, even today?

In the Middle East, what about the US invasion of Iraq which quickly turned into a regime of torture?

Of course religion is in the mix, but it is only one element. It can act as a fuel if fires are lit by massive terror.

When group A tells group B to convert to group A's religion or be exiled, it is nothing short of ludicrous to imagine that the conflict isn't fuelled by and about religion.

Don't be silly - you're discounting the nuanced geopolitical milieu which was responsible for three root farmers being hacked to death with farm utensils. https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/24/indonesia-ahmadiyah-official-line-kills
 
Do you think there is nothing but Islam in perfect isolation?

Do you know the history of Indonesia over the last 50 years?

The colonists moved out and then the Indonesian government became the local religio-nationalistic hegemon. What do you know of Borneo, the Papauan people, or the Second World War II?

More than one meaningless sentence.
 
When group A tells group B to convert to group A's religion or be exiled, it is nothing short of ludicrous to imagine that the conflict isn't fuelled by and about religion.

Don't be silly - you're discounting the nuanced geopolitical milieu which was responsible for three root farmers being hacked to death with farm utensils. https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/24/indonesia-ahmadiyah-official-line-kills

One can always look at the latest violence and pretend it is the root cause of violence.

There are causes upon causes upon causes.

Human life can never be reduced to one variable.
 
The colonists moved out and then the Indonesian government became the local religio-nationalistic hegemon. What do you know of Borneo, the Papauan people, or the Second World War II?

More than one meaningless sentence.

Astounding argument - you've outdone your usual level of eloquence.

Don't be silly - you're discounting the nuanced geopolitical milieu which was responsible for three root farmers being hacked to death with farm utensils. https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/24/indonesia-ahmadiyah-official-line-kills

One can always look at the latest violence and pretend it is the root cause of violence.

There are causes upon causes upon causes.

Human life can never be reduced to one variable.

That's not the latest instance, it's a previous instance to the latest instance. Prior to which there was a steady buildup of persecution.

I'd take you more seriously in these sorts of threads if you demonstrated some sense of consistency. Name three causes that you think excuse this barbarism. One handwave for each unjust death that you're so keen to excuse.
 
Back
Top Bottom