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Most recent great christian work of art/frequency of great religious art production

I think it has more to do with conformist thought constraining creative flow, of how free the passion flows through the process.

A good artist can create something spectacular within any confines regardless of personal beliefs or the beliefs of those around him, but if the artist must check with his ideology for conformity throughout the creative process, you get shit like "Christian Rock." It's created to please the group, not to express something honest within the artist or say anything worthwhile about the human experience.
 
I think it has more to do with conformist thought constraining creative flow, of how free the passion flows through the process.

A good artist can create something spectacular within any confines regardless of personal beliefs or the beliefs of those around him, but if the artist must check with his ideology for conformity throughout the creative process, you get shit like "Christian Rock." It's created to please the group, not to express something honest within the artist or say anything worthwhile about the human experience.

As opposed to secular rock, which is all good, sincere, valuable expression free of stylistic coercion?

Maybe not the best comparison.

Anyway, I don't know if the lines separating genres are all that sharp. My nephew is a fan of Hillsong, which is a Christian rock band. And he's no Christian.
 
Okay, not on every work, but not exclusively for sacred works either. From Wiki:

The Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the initials "S. D. G." at the end of all his church compositions and also applied it to some, but not all, his secular works.[1]

And definitely not on "every work" which was you point.

Ok, so it's like that. I was mistaken.

I conceded that, and I'm doing so again.

Your turn: not on sacred works only which was your point. Man up or weasel.

Show me a work he signed soli deo gloria the was not comissioned by church or used in service then.
 
Okay, not on every work, but not exclusively for sacred works either. From Wiki:

The Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the initials "S. D. G." at the end of all his church compositions and also applied it to some, but not all, his secular works.[1]

And definitely not on "every work" which was you point.

Ok, so it's like that. I was mistaken.

I conceded that, and I'm doing so again.

Your turn: not on sacred works only which was your point. Man up or weasel.

Show me a work he signed soli deo gloria the was not comissioned by church or used in service then.

Weasel. No surprises...
 
Okay, not on every work, but not exclusively for sacred works either. From Wiki:

The Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the initials "S. D. G." at the end of all his church compositions and also applied it to some, but not all, his secular works.[1]

And definitely not on "every work" which was you point.

Ok, so it's like that. I was mistaken.

I conceded that, and I'm doing so again.

Your turn: not on sacred works only which was your point. Man up or weasel.

Show me a work he signed soli deo gloria the was not comissioned by church or used in service then.

Weasel. No surprises...

So its namecalling time? Give it up man. You where wrong - no big deal.
You keeping bitching about it - hilarious.
 
I think it has more to do with conformist thought constraining creative flow, of how free the passion flows through the process.

A good artist can create something spectacular within any confines regardless of personal beliefs or the beliefs of those around him, but if the artist must check with his ideology for conformity throughout the creative process, you get shit like "Christian Rock." It's created to please the group, not to express something honest within the artist or say anything worthwhile about the human experience.

As opposed to secular rock, which is all good, sincere, valuable expression free of stylistic coercion?

Maybe not the best comparison.

Anyway, I don't know if the lines separating genres are all that sharp. My nephew is a fan of Hillsong, which is a Christian rock band. And he's no Christian.
It's definitely a good comparison. Yes, a lot of secular music is crap, too, and it mainly comes from people wanting to conform to society, whatever image is popular. Specifically, consider American country/western music. It's as conformist and stagnant and uninspired as music can get, with few exceptions.

I agree there's no definitive line. I also reiterate my statement that conformity - love for the ideological identity or social image more than love of honesty or art - serves as a massive damper on creativity.

Whatever truly inspires an artist, it's an experience, and not ideology.
 
Okay, not on every work, but not exclusively for sacred works either. From Wiki:

The Baroque composer Johann Sebastian Bach wrote the initials "S. D. G." at the end of all his church compositions and also applied it to some, but not all, his secular works.[1]

And definitely not on "every work" which was you point.

Ok, so it's like that. I was mistaken.

I conceded that, and I'm doing so again.

Your turn: not on sacred works only which was your point. Man up or weasel.

Show me a work he signed soli deo gloria the was not comissioned by church or used in service then.

Weasel. No surprises...

So its namecalling time? Give it up man. You where wrong - no big deal.
You keeping bitching about it - hilarious.

I cited a source; you have not produced any evidence to support your assertion.
 
As opposed to secular rock, which is all good, sincere, valuable expression free of stylistic coercion?

Maybe not the best comparison.

Anyway, I don't know if the lines separating genres are all that sharp. My nephew is a fan of Hillsong, which is a Christian rock band. And he's no Christian.
It's definitely a good comparison. Yes, a lot of secular music is crap, too, and it mainly comes from people wanting to conform to society, whatever image is popular. Specifically, consider American country/western music. It's as conformist and stagnant and uninspired as music can get, with few exceptions.

I agree there's no definitive line. I also reiterate my statement that conformity - love for the ideological identity or social image more than love of honesty or art - serves as a massive damper on creativity.

Whatever truly inspires an artist, it's an experience, and not ideology.

My point is that in some instances being at a remove from ideology can be an advantage. I mean that only as a comment, not as an argument for powerful interests dictating content to artists.
 
Looking at the articles today about the 'shoot the faggot' game, I have thought a bit on how low christian culture has fallen. It seems to me that while previous centuries had many, many spectacular works of christian art (as well as vast amounts of christian schlock) nowadays, and even in the past century, there have been few, if any great art produced with explicitly christian themes and purposes. Even the schlock seems to have declined in quality.

So I invite people to point out great works of christian art in recent times, and discuss whether this seeming cultural decline is real or consequential.

It almost seems to me that there hasn't been much quality christian art since World War 1. There have been several remarkable churches built in the twentieth century, and even the twenty first, but with so many of the architects being agnostic or even athiestic, can such buildings really be counted as christian art?

It was the institution of the Catholic Church that produced (or rather, acted as the patrons of) that art, not really Christianity per se. Your garden-variety Protestant Christianity, especially in America, is no-where near as sophisticated as the Catholic Church.
 
It was the institution of the Catholic Church that produced (or rather, acted as the patrons of) that art, not really Christianity per se. Your garden-variety Protestant Christianity, especially in America, is no-where near as sophisticated as the Catholic Church.

That argument can be made, but I don't think its valid to the point: The point is that Christian culture produced great works. Sure you could say it was the church princes that commissioned it, but the laymen certainly appreciated it, and artists came from the lower classes. Also, rich non-prelates were also inspired to commission artwork, some religious in theme, and some secular. You had a culture that valued such art and was geared to produce it, even though it was a small number of people who were most intimately involved.

If, as you say contemporary protestant culture lacks this artistic patron class, you could see that as a lack in the culture: why does it lack the patron class and the art valueing culture. That is the point of the discussion.

And in (partial) answer to Tom:

Contemporary art seems to be in a state of flux. In my field (architecture) there's no real dominant style, though deconstructivism seems to be just about dead, and I think future scholars might call this era 'eco-corporate neo-modernism.' Where buildings are largely built in the same vocabulary of the international style, but with hi-tech, often environmentally driven modifications, and where color and decoration are allowed, but the whole is constrained by a sort of conservative, moneyed aesthetic.

In the less practical arts, as I alluded to, the long tyranny of anti-representativism seems to be over, with representational art now appearing side by side with abstract art, which, to my mind, is a wonderful thing. For a long time, any art that wasn't abstract was viewed as kitschy and crowd pleasing. I am less well versed in this sort of art.

In music, I have very little to say, but more knowledgable people are invited to discuss this at any length.
 
In music, I have very little to say, but more knowledgable people are invited to discuss this at any length.

That's good because it's been a couple of hours since I've had the opportunity to wax poetic about the timeless musical genius of Justin Beiber and it's always nice to remind everyone how awesome and cute he is.
 
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Looking at the articles today about the 'shoot the faggot' game, I have thought a bit on how low christian culture has fallen. It seems to me that while previous centuries had many, many spectacular works of christian art (as well as vast amounts of christian schlock) nowadays, and even in the past century, there have been few, if any great art produced with explicitly christian themes and purposes. Even the schlock seems to have declined in quality.

So I invite people to point out great works of christian art in recent times, and discuss whether this seeming cultural decline is real or consequential.

It almost seems to me that there hasn't been much quality christian art since World War 1. There have been several remarkable churches built in the twentieth century, and even the twenty first, but with so many of the architects being agnostic or even athiestic, can such buildings really be counted as christian art?

It was the institution of the Catholic Church that produced (or rather, acted as the patrons of) that art, not really Christianity per se. Your garden-variety Protestant Christianity, especially in America, is no-where near as sophisticated as the Catholic Church.

In the case of music, the first Viennese school, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven etc., existed largely because the Hapsburgs liked music.
 
Tom said:
That's good because it's been a couple of hours since I've had the opportunity to wax poetic about the timeless musical genius of Justin Beiber and it's always nice to remind everyone how awesome and cute he is.

If you do, I'll have to start another thread about how the rules of the forum need to be changed so I can put you on ignore.


More seriously: is what our culture lacks is a class of super rich who spend their money on art, rather than yachts and pet politicians?
 
It was the institution of the Catholic Church that produced (or rather, acted as the patrons of) that art, not really Christianity per se. Your garden-variety Protestant Christianity, especially in America, is no-where near as sophisticated as the Catholic Church.

That argument can be made, but I don't think its valid to the point: The point is that Christian culture produced great works. Sure you could say it was the church princes that commissioned it, but the laymen certainly appreciated it, and artists came from the lower classes. Also, rich non-prelates were also inspired to commission artwork, some religious in theme, and some secular. You had a culture that valued such art and was geared to produce it, even though it was a small number of people who were most intimately involved.

If, as you say contemporary protestant culture lacks this artistic patron class, you could see that as a lack in the culture: why does it lack the patron class and the art valueing culture. That is the point of the discussion.
My point was that you can't really say that there exists a monolithic "Christian culture" that has continuity with the Catholic tradition of the past that created that art.

My point
 
Tom said:
That's good because it's been a couple of hours since I've had the opportunity to wax poetic about the timeless musical genius of Justin Beiber and it's always nice to remind everyone how awesome and cute he is.

If you do, I'll have to start another thread about how the rules of the forum need to be changed so I can put you on ignore.


More seriously: is what our culture lacks is a class of super rich who spend their money on art, rather than yachts and pet politicians?

I don't think they need to rely as much on pageantry and display to maintain their power.

I also wonder if there's not as great a sense of noblesse oblige.
 
Oh for pity's sake.

It's intellectual shorthand. I know that christian culture is not monolithic. We've had zillions of conversations on that. I'd rather talk art. The parts you want to emphasize have the most detail, and the other parts are sketched in with less contrast.
 
More seriously: is what our culture lacks is a class of super rich who spend their money on art, rather than yachts and pet politicians?

I don't think so. I think it's more what krypton iodine sulfur mentioned above, where there's a much larger noise to signal ratio today than there used to be. The super rich do spend their money on art and do so quite extensively. There's so much of it, though, that even the truly great are lost in the crowd and the media tends to ignore them more often than not, so that most people really have no idea who they are.
 
That argument can be made, but I don't think its valid to the point: The point is that Christian culture produced great works.

Which has its source in early church art, which has its source in roman and greek art.
 
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