Nanny state on booze

[Derec]

Nope. They didn't. If you take a peak at history the Vikings left their villages undefended when they went on raids. Why?

My point was not the minutia of Viking defense tactics but the fact that they did not invite foreign invaders and also gave them generous welfare benefits.

I had no problem finding beer in Egypt or Malaysia.

Neither country is run by Islamists at this time. But note where the Muslim migrants that are flooding Europe are coming from. Countries like Afghanistan where 99% support Sharia law.

Friends working in Saudi Arabia have told me finding a bar there was easy. It wasn't advertised in the street. But were easy to find anyway. Iranian friends say the same thing about Iran. Our history of trying to ban psychoactive drugs has been just as ineffectual in the Middle East as it was in USA.

So you are ok with not being able to drink alcohol openly any more, but to have to do it clandestinely once Islam takes over due to mass migration and mass breeding?

That article was utter bullshit. In a modern western government we don't forbid people from having children.

The point is that modern western governments should be more selective as to whom they allow to immigrate. Not people who are going to outbreed the native population and take over.
The social safety net laws are made and calibrated for the European society and the way Europeans live and the kinds of families Europeans have. They are not designed to let the whole world come in and rest on the social hammock Europeans build, especially when they have many more children than Europeans do, and thus receive much more money from the government.

If we have a law that allows couples getting access to subsidised IVF then we have to apply the law fairly.

It is not fair application of the law to subsidize one's own demise by importing millions of migrants with an incompatible culture and then paying them five thousand of Euro per month in benefits because they have 9 children and want even more.

Also, women in particular can be fucking nuts about having more children. I've learned not to judge. At my last job I had a colleague who had seven kids. Ethnically Swedish atheist.

That is very rare among Sweeds and very common among Afghans.

Also, Daily Mail. It's mostly likely not true anyway.

Oh, it is true. It's been reported in local outlets too.
Afghanisches Paar kassiert 5682 € für Großfamilie
Afghanisches Ehepaar hat 9 Kinder|Wirbel um 8.252 Euro Sozialhilfe für Familie

It light of such idiocy by Austrian government, is it any wonder that the right-wing candidate almost won the presidential election runoff there?

There's nothing on those signs about banning alcohol.

Not even the word "Sharia"? You know, the Islamic law that these Islamist invaders want to make the law of the land in UK.

As far as I can tell this is just information.

No, it's not "information". It's demands. Like "don't drink or sell alcohol". Note the telltale use of the imperative.

Their signs are correct.

Really? You agree that "Islam is the solution"? Or that we should "Fear Allah"?

There are huge numbers of alcohol related deaths. You can't argue the facts.

So what? Should we ban everything that is potentially dangerous or only when Muslims demand it?

But even if they were, why are you against freedom and democracy?

I think we have diametrically opposite views of what "freedom" means. To me, foreigners coming to Europe and demand that Europeans adopt their medieval, theocratic laws is the very opposite of freedom.
And democracy is also not about replacing the people with another, like in that Bertold Brecht poem.
To preserve freedom, Europe must restrict immigration to those who are compatible with European values. If you put your women in bags or if you support Sharia, you should not be allowed to immigrate to Europe (or US for that matter).

I encourage everybody to express their views. Tolerance for alternate views is was defines a civilised country.

Tolerance should not be a suicide pact though.

They want to ban alcohol. So what? It'll never happen in the west. Because it's stupid. It would be stupid even if you were against alcohol.

Percentage of Muslims in Europe is increasing every year due to idiotic and suicidal immigration policies. Most of these Islamic invaders come from very conservative and fundamentalist societies. Thus to think that it will never happen in the West is very naive.

Please get out of your Jihadwatch/Daily Mail bubble. It's not reality.

And you need to get your head out of the sand and smell the Turkish coffee.

 

[southernhybrid]

Derec, why are you acting so paranoid? According to a Pew Research study, Europe will only be 10% Muslim by the year 2050. It's true that Muslim women tend to have more children, but the average is three, not seven. I know plenty of Christians and atheists in the US that have had more than three children. And, what makes you think that all of those children will embrace the Muslim religion when they are adults? I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family. Drinking ETOH was considered a sin and it was banned in our home. I gave up those belief by the time I was 18 and have been a strong atheist since I was in my 20s. Most of the atheists I know were raised in Christian homes. And, not all Muslims are fundies. We have a Muslim friend that drinks and smokes dope. So, I think your fears are silly and totally unwarranted. It's gonna be oaky. The Brits are going to be able to enjoy their booze for a long time to come and I'm sure many of their Muslim brothers and sisters will be enjoying it too, just like many Christians do things that might be out of sync with their core beliefs.

Speaking of the nanny state, when the fuck is the American nanny state going to allow its citizens to legally enjoy a little maryjane?


http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

In Europe, Muslims will make up 10% of the overall population.

Yes. Muslims are growing in numbers and assimilation is likely the best thing that can be done to help them blend in with the rest of us.

 

[bilby]

Derec, why are you acting so paranoid? According to a Pew Research study, Europe will only be 10% Muslim by the year 2050. It's true that Muslim women tend to have more children, but the average is three, not seven. I know plenty of Christians and atheists in the US that have had more than three children. And, what makes you think that all of those children will embrace the Muslim religion when they are adults? I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family. Drinking ETOH was considered a sin and it was banned in our home. I gave up those belief by the time I was 18 and have been a strong atheist since I was in my 20s. Most of the atheists I know were raised in Christian homes. And, not all Muslims are fundies. We have a Muslim friend that drinks and smokes dope. So, I think your fears are silly and totally unwarranted. It's gonna be oaky. The Brits are going to be able to enjoy their booze for a long time to come and I'm sure many of their Muslim brothers and sisters will be enjoying it too, just like many Christians do things that might be out of sync with their core beliefs.

Speaking of the nanny state, when the fuck is the American nanny state going to allow its citizens to legally enjoy a little maryjane?


http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

In Europe, Muslims will make up 10% of the overall population.

Yes. Muslims are growing in numbers and assimilation is likely the best thing that can be done to help them blend in with the rest of us.

Going to European schools and growing up with European friends and neighbours turns most people into atheists (or at the very least apatheists). The only mechanism that can prevent this from happening to Muslim children in Europe is racism of the sort that Derec actively promotes; His constant banging on about how dangerous all this immigration is (and that of the other racist pricks who share his distorted worldview) is the cause of the very problems they claim to fear.

 

[Bronzeage]

Derec, why are you acting so paranoid? .....

Never try to reason with a paranoid. It wastes your time and confirms all their fears.

Racism is a form of severe herd mentality. It manifests itself as fear that the protection of being in a herd is diminished. The analogy can go quite far. Herd animals are prey animals, and all other herds are, as well.

Racist herd mentality requires other herd be seen as predators. Once this idea takes root, no amount of reason, logic, or facts can change this distorted perception.

 

[funinspace]

 

[DrZoidberg]

Neither country is run by Islamists at this time. But note where the Muslim migrants that are flooding Europe are coming from. Countries like Afghanistan where 99% support Sharia law.

Last time I was in Egypt it was run by Islamists. The short period the Muslim Brotherhood's Morsi was in power. He allowed alcohol to be sold out of respect to the countries Christians minority. You're really pulling all this out your ass.

Politics is never simple and straight forward. Politics is without exception complicated once you get up close.

Friends working in Saudi Arabia have told me finding a bar there was easy. It wasn't advertised in the street. But were easy to find anyway. Iranian friends say the same thing about Iran. Our history of trying to ban psychoactive drugs has been just as ineffectual in the Middle East as it was in USA.

So you are ok with not being able to drink alcohol openly any more, but to have to do it clandestinely once Islam takes over due to mass migration and mass breeding?

As long as we keep Marijuana and MDMA illegal I think the west should shut the fuck up. There's few things that annoy me as much as double standards.

That article was utter bullshit. In a modern western government we don't forbid people from having children.

The point is that modern western governments should be more selective as to whom they allow to immigrate. Not people who are going to outbreed the native population and take over.
The social safety net laws are made and calibrated for the European society and the way Europeans live and the kinds of families Europeans have. They are not designed to let the whole world come in and rest on the social hammock Europeans build, especially when they have many more children than Europeans do, and thus receive much more money from the government.

This is just crazy talk. There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. I'll settle for... of course not.

I also object to you using the term "breeding". It's racist. And if you don't understand why it's racist then I can't help you.

There's nothing on those signs about banning alcohol.

Not even the word "Sharia"? You know, the Islamic law that these Islamist invaders want to make the law of the land in UK.

Why do you hate freedom?

As far as I can tell this is just information.

No, it's not "information". It's demands. Like "don't drink or sell alcohol". Note the telltale use of the imperative.

Their signs are correct.

Really? You agree that "Islam is the solution"? Or that we should "Fear Allah"?

They're free to have their own opinions. It's a free country. What's your problem with democracy, I wonder?

There are huge numbers of alcohol related deaths. You can't argue the facts.

So what? Should we ban everything that is potentially dangerous or only when Muslims demand it?

If we look at the signs they're not arguing on religious grounds. You're just inserting that.

But even if they were, why are you against freedom and democracy?

I think we have diametrically opposite views of what "freedom" means. To me, foreigners coming to Europe and demand that Europeans adopt their medieval, theocratic laws is the very opposite of freedom.
And democracy is also not about replacing the people with another, like in that Bertold Brecht poem.
To preserve freedom, Europe must restrict immigration to those who are compatible with European values. If you put your women in bags or if you support Sharia, you should not be allowed to immigrate to Europe (or US for that matter).

Yeah, but people change. A hundred years ago Europe was about as Medieval.

The point is that you can't protect freedom while also forbidding certain ideas. If you do you'll lose your freedom. Baby and bathwater and so on.

I encourage everybody to express their views. Tolerance for alternate views is was defines a civilised country.

Tolerance should not be a suicide pact though.

You can't qualify it or have double standards. Either we treat everybody with the same degree of freedom or we don't have freedom.

They want to ban alcohol. So what? It'll never happen in the west. Because it's stupid. It would be stupid even if you were against alcohol.

Percentage of Muslims in Europe is increasing every year due to idiotic and suicidal immigration policies. Most of these Islamic invaders come from very conservative and fundamentalist societies. Thus to think that it will never happen in the West is very naive.

I'm pretty sure all the alcohol drinking Muslims will have none of this nonsense. Radical Muslims are rare. They might be noisy, but they have zero political pull.

Please get out of your Jihadwatch/Daily Mail bubble. It's not reality.

And you need to get your head out of the sand and smell the Turkish coffee.

What's wrong with Turkish coffee now suddenly? Do you want to ban that to? You're a real lover of freedom.

 

[Derec]

Last time I was in Egypt it was run by Islamists. The short period the Muslim Brotherhood's Morsi was in power.

As you said, he was in power a short time.
However, elsewhere in the Islamic world ...
Indonesia proposes alcohol ban in Bali

But what is your point? Are you conceding that Islam will take over Europe through demographics (combination of mass migration and mass breeding) but don't think it will be a big deal?

Politics is never simple and straight forward. Politics is without exception complicated once you get up close.

Why complicate it further by having the European continent overrun by Muslim mass migrants?

As long as we keep Marijuana and MDMA illegal I think the west should shut the fuck up.

False equivalence again. The West is much more liberal than the Islamic world, so I do not see what is to be gained by making the West more Islamic.

This is just crazy talk. There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. I'll settle for... of course not.

Then have fun paying for all the billions in welfare expenditures when all the millions of men who entered Europe in 2015-2016 start bringing their wives and gazillions of children.
Note that with that IVF Afghan family in the article, the husband entered first and then brought the rest of his family two years later. Put two and two together as to what will happen when this latest wave of mass migrants start bringing in the rest of their families.

I also object to you using the term "breeding". It's racist. And if you don't understand why it's racist then I can't help you.

I guess you subscribe to Anita Sarkeesian school of social justice warfare.

It's not racist to point out that these Muslim invaders have huge birth rates. Especially since Muslim is not a race.

Why do you hate freedom?

I love freedom, which is why I hate Sharia. Freedom is antithetical to Sharia.

They're free to have their own opinions. It's a free country. What's your problem with democracy, I wonder?

Since when does democracy mean replacing the people with another?
They have the right to their own opinions, but they do not have the right to invade European countries and try to impose their opinions onto others.
I guess you have no problem with Muslims coming into Europe and taking over little by little until actual Europeans are nothing but second class citizens.

If we look at the signs they're not arguing on religious grounds. You're just inserting that.

"Fear Allah" is not "religious grounds"? Sharia is not a religious law code?

Yeah, but people change. A hundred years ago Europe was about as Medieval.

100 years ago was 1917. Hardly medieval.
And people change. That is different than people being replaced through an invasion, which is happening right now.

The point is that you can't protect freedom while also forbidding certain ideas. If you do you'll lose your freedom. Baby and bathwater and so on.

And you can't protect freedom while allowing mass migration from cultures incompatible with your own.
Fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with Western ideas of freedom and importing millions of mostly fundamentalist Muslims from places like Somalia and Afghanistan is suicidal as can be seen from the demands for Sharia law they are making. If they are so brazen already, how much more aggressive will they be when their population share becomes 20, 30 and finally 50%?

You can't qualify it or have double standards. Either we treat everybody with the same degree of freedom or we don't have freedom.

Bullshit. It's the opposite. Freedom cannot be sustained without selection.

I'm pretty sure all the alcohol drinking Muslims will have none of this nonsense. Radical Muslims are rare. They might be noisy, but they have zero political pull.

They are hardly rare. 99% of Afghans support Sharia. Afghanistan is one of the main exporters of mass migrants into Europe. In fact, they have such high birth rates that they could export almost a million people each year and not reduce their population by a single person.

What's wrong with Turkish coffee now suddenly? Do you want to ban that to? You're a real lover of freedom.

No, I don't want to ban anything. I just want you to smell it and wake the fuck up. It's pretty strong shit and perhaps it will do the trick.

 

[Derec]

Racism is a form of severe herd mentality. It manifests itself as fear that the protection of being in a herd is diminished. The analogy can go quite far. Herd animals are prey animals, and all other herds are, as well.

Racist herd mentality requires other herd be seen as predators. Once this idea takes root, no amount of reason, logic, or facts can change this distorted perception.

The herd mentality I see is calling anybody who disagrees that we must allow mass migration "racist" or "xenophobic" etc. It is your side who is bleating in unison.

 

[Derec]

Going to European schools and growing up with European friends and neighbours turns most people into atheists (or at the very least apatheists). The only mechanism that can prevent this from happening to Muslim children in Europe is racism of the sort that Derec actively promotes; His constant banging on about how dangerous all this immigration is (and that of the other racist pricks who share his distorted worldview) is the cause of the very problems they claim to fear.

There is a difference between regular immigration and mass migration.

With regular immigration you have relatively small numbers and you can have some selection over who immigrates. Both are aiding integration.
With mass migration, especially mass migration from a very different culture, you have creation of a parallel society. What makes you think that a fundamentalist Muslim family from say Afghanistan, who came to Europe solely because of generous benefits and not because they want to integrate into European societies, would allow their children to have non-Muslim friends anyway? And because there are so many of them coming at once, they do not have to interact with anybody except each other anyway. They just collect their thousands of euros of benefits and continue behaving like they were in Afghanistan. Oh, and they demand taxpayers pay for IVF for their 10th child too.

Here is a triumphalist video by one of these Muslim invaders telling Germans that their daughters will wear hijabs because of Islamization.

But no. Anybody who disagrees with allowing millions of Muslims, mostly fundamentalist ones, to come to Europe each year must be a "racist".

 

[Derec]

Derec, why are you acting so paranoid?

Not paranoid. Just not

According to a Pew Research study, Europe will only be 10% Muslim by the year 2050.

That is not taking into account the effects of the mass migration that started a couple of years ago and is continuing today.
Do you know what is happening in Europe now? Migrants set off on flimsy boats (often rubber dingeys) from places like Libya but they do not have to reach Europe. Instead, there are groups purportedly "rescuing" these migrants, but instead of taking them back to Libya, they aid and abet the smugglers and bring them to Italy. Of course, by making these transits safer and easier, it merely encourages more such migrant smuggling.
Italian authorities investigating possible smuggler funding of migrant rescue boats
The only solution to discourage these crossings would be to deposit them back in Libya.

It's true that Muslim women tend to have more children, but the average is three, not seven.

Where do you get the figure of three?
Not all Muslims are the same. You cannot compare say Bosnian Muslims for which the figure probably does apply to Afghan, Somali etc. Muslims. These more fundamentalist Muslim areas have a much higher birth rates. An average Afghan woman has 5.22 children, an average Somali woman 5.89. And that average includes women who are infertile or die young.

And, not all Muslims are fundies. We have a Muslim friend that drinks and smokes dope.

I am well aware of that. Let me just make clear that I am not calling for some kind of general Muslim ban. I am merely saying that both US and Europe need smart immigration policy.
That includes having immigration quotas that are sustainable both economically and societaly. Also, there should be selection of immigrants to make sure, as much as possible, that those who seek to come in actually want to become part of Western society and do not want.
We simply do not need immigrants like this and it is neither racist nor xenophobic to point that out.

When we take immigrants from places like Somalia, better to take people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali rather than Muna Osman Jama and Hinda Osman Dhirane.
I think those two points are quite reasonable. Unfortunately, anybody who is opposed to mass migration and lack of selection in migration is being attacked as "racist" and "xenophobe" as if somehow Western societies were under obligation to take in unlimited number of migrants no matter who they are.

Taking in a million random Muslim migrants in a single year like Angela Merkel did in Germany is insanity. Especially since vast majority of those were men travelling alone who will want to bring their families when they settle down. That means that this one million will become 3 or 4 million.

So, I think your fears are silly and totally unwarranted. It's gonna be oaky. The Brits are going to be able to enjoy their booze for a long time to come and I'm sure many of their Muslim brothers and sisters will be enjoying it too, just like many Christians do things that might be out of sync with their core beliefs.

For the sake of Christians, atheists and Muslims who want to enjoy an ale or a bitter, to ensure they will be able to do so for the long time to come, UK (and the rest of Europe) cannot afford mass migration without any standards as to how many and who is allowed to immigrate. You cannot have a country without regulating immigration.

And to quote a fictional (vice) president:

Speaking of the nanny state, when the fuck is the American nanny state going to allow its citizens to legally enjoy a little maryjane?

Well you can always visit the mile high state.

Yes. Muslims are growing in numbers and assimilation is likely the best thing that can be done to help them blend in with the rest of us.

And one key to assimilation is who and how many migrate in the first place. It's very difficult and probably impossible to assimilate fundy Muslims who think Europe is sinful and godless and doubly so when there are millions of them coming at once and thus they have to need to interact with anybody but each other.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As you said, he was in power a short time.
However, elsewhere in the Islamic world ...
Indonesia proposes alcohol ban in Bali

Politicians propose bills all the time that will never in a million years be passed. Bills they float to be seen as being for something when they're really not. Come again if they actually manage to pass the bill. Until then I'll think this bill is designed to fail. Because it's dumb. Bali's main industry is tourism and tourists drink alcohol.

But what is your point? Are you conceding that Islam will take over Europe through demographics (combination of mass migration and mass breeding) but don't think it will be a big deal?

Religion is dying. Well... the old type of religion. It's dying everywhere. I agree with Karen Armstrong that militant religion is already having accepted defeat. If you believe in the strength of your own faith you let it do the talking for you, and you just stay down to earth and humble. That's how all confident religious people seem to behave.

People who grew up in poor countries have a lot of babies. People who grew up in rich countries don't. The second generation Muslims stop having masses of babies. And since religion in the west is dying these second generation Muslims will most likely stop being Muslim.

So what's your fear exactly? Or is the problem that they're brown? They can't stop being brown. They really can't help that.

Politics is never simple and straight forward. Politics is without exception complicated once you get up close.

Why complicate it further by having the European continent overrun by Muslim mass migrants?

No offence, but you really are a heartless bastard. There's a war on in Syria.

As long as we keep Marijuana and MDMA illegal I think the west should shut the fuck up.

False equivalence again. The West is much more liberal than the Islamic world, so I do not see what is to be gained by making the West more Islamic.

Sure. But the west isn't only a haven of liberalism. We have more in common with them then I think we like to admit.

I also object to you using the term "breeding". It's racist. And if you don't understand why it's racist then I can't help you.

I guess you subscribe to Anita Sarkeesian school of social justice warfare.

It's not racist to point out that these Muslim invaders have huge birth rates. Especially since Muslim is not a race.

When I pointed it out you switched to "birth rates" which means that you are aware that we only talk of "breeding" when we're talking about animals. Do you think Muslims are animals?

Do you refer to your mother as a "breeder"?

They're free to have their own opinions. It's a free country. What's your problem with democracy, I wonder?

Since when does democracy mean replacing the people with another?
They have the right to their own opinions, but they do not have the right to invade European countries and try to impose their opinions onto others.
I guess you have no problem with Muslims coming into Europe and taking over little by little until actual Europeans are nothing but second class citizens.

How about we worrying about that when there's an actual problem. It's a bit premature talking about this hypothesis? In the meantime, how about protecting those democratic freedoms we all love. Well... you clearly don't. But the rest of us.

Yeah, but people change. A hundred years ago Europe was about as Medieval.

100 years ago was 1917. Hardly medieval.

A hundred years ago no woman in the West had the vote. In most places they weren't allowed to own property in their own names. Every woman had to have a legal male guardian who had total power over her. Including beating her to death. In Saudi Arabia today they can own property in their own names, and they have the vote. Violence within the marriage didn't start becoming illegal in the West until the 70'ies.

Take off your rose tinted spectacles regarding Western history. We've been horrible to. And if we can change, so can they. Well... they will change. Everything always does.

And people change. That is different than people being replaced through an invasion, which is happening right now.

No, it isn't. It just isn't. Take your head out of your ass, please.

They are hardly rare. 99% of Afghans support Sharia. Afghanistan is one of the main exporters of mass migrants into Europe. In fact, they have such high birth rates that they could export almost a million people each year and not reduce their population by a single person.

How about reading Afghan history? Being pro-Islam means being patriotic. It means defending against European aggression and colonialism. Asking an Afghani if they support the Sharia is like asking an American if they support the American constitution. Of course they do. But Americans don't want it to be exactly like it was in 1776.

Or reading, Islamic history? The Sharia is chock full of amendments. That's all the Sharia is. It's amendments to the Quran. They don't have to stop amending it. Islam has a long and proud history of creative and liberal interpretations of the Quran. The Ottoman Caliph decided that the correct interpretation of Quran was whatever made his empire run smoothly, even if it was the exact opposite of what the a read.

I think Islam is a shitty religion. Probably the worst of the lot. But there is hope, since Islam is populated by humans. And humans have predictable needs. One is to just get on with life and not make it so damn hard. Militant Muslims are only militant because they think it will make the world a better place and an easier place to live in. They're all going to have reality checks sooner or later.