# National Debt And Stuff

Fun with big numbers and economics.

I Googled for 31 trillion divided by 330 million. And Gogle gave me an answer. 93939.

This is our current national debt divided by U.S. population. Every American owes $93939 to be able to pay it off. Over 10 years it is$9393.9. To pay off the national debt. So, for those who think we should never raise taxs and use cuts to stop deficir spending and paying down the national debt, what are you proposing to slash?

This Google big number calculator looks like it is going to be great fun to play with.

Every American owes $93939 to be able to pay it off. Or, to put it another way, that's how much money the average American has. The National Debt is the difference between dollars created by government spending, and dollars destroyed by taxation. "Pay it off", and the average American will have (on average) no money at all. If$94k seems like more money than you, personally, have, then welcome to the fact that a handful of rich bastards are hogging a big chunk of the national wealth. Well, maybe not - because some US dollars are not in the hands of Americans at all, so your denominator (US population) is inappropriate; You should divide by the number of people who use US Dollars, which is rather larger than the number of US citizens and/or US residents.

From a purely political perspective, we should string up the accountants who named the "National Debt", using "debt" in the strict accounting sense that non-accountants were bound to misunderstand; And rename it the "National Wealth".

While I do not ascribe to bilby's analysis completely, there is no reason to try to pay off the debt within 10 years. If a country's citizens were serious about paying off the debt, simply retire whatever bonds come due without increasing borrowing. That would take about 30 years to eliminate the entire federal debt.

Now, whether that would is a good idea is a completely different question.

Just a historical note - the USA federal government was debt free from 1835 to 1837. Every other year, the US federal government had owed someone somewhere.

Every American owes $93939 to be able to pay it off. Or, to put it another way, that's how much money the average American has. The National Debt is the difference between dollars created by government spending, and dollars destroyed by taxation. "Pay it off", and the average American will have (on average) no money at all. If$94k seems like more money than you, personally, have, then welcome to the fact that a handful of rich bastards are hogging a big chunk of the national wealth. Well, maybe not - because some US dollars are not in the hands of Americans at all, so your denominator (US population) is inappropriate; You should divide by the number of people who use US Dollars, which is rather larger than the number of US citizens and/or US residents.

From a purely political perspective, we should string up the accountants who named the "National Debt", using "debt" in the strict accounting sense that non-accountants were bound to misunderstand; And rename it the "National Wealth".

Our far right extremist GOP politicians say we MUST stop deficit spendinf and pay of the national debt. To do that, just for the National Debt is $9393.9 per America over ten years. Of course we can't raise taxes. So, realistically, what do these retards propose to slash to do that? Half of these retards say cut social programs, half of these morons are now swearing they won't cut SS and Medicare. None of them openly rebelled when Trump proposed deep cuts in evet social program some right wing think tank brought to his attention. Trump now is doing a 180° now. But when elected, if elected, what will the GOP do if in 2024 they take over America? All of this is like handing a loaded Glock .40 pistol to a chimp. All of this is like handing a loaded Glock .40 pistol to a chimp. If the American voters (and the eligible citizens who chose not to bother voting) want to give a handgun to a wild animal, then that's their problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys. Fun with big numbers and economics. I Googled for 31 trillion divided by 330 million. And Gogle gave me an answer. 93939. This is our current national debt divided by U.S. population. Every American owes$93939 to be able to pay it off. Over 10 years it is $9393.9. To pay off the national debt. So, for those who think we should never raise taxs and use cuts to stop deficir spending and paying down the national debt, what are you proposing to slash? This Google big number calculator looks like it is going to be great fun to play with. American population includes children, etc. Debt per household is$250,000 and may be easier to grasp.

Another calibration in the Teradollar range is the total market capitalization of the S&P 500 companies. This is $35 Trillion, close to the federal debt. If we assume, arbitrarily, that even a quarter of these companies' stock prices is due to recent tax code largesse, that accounts for a whopping$9 trillion of citizen burden, at least metaphorically.

Every American owes $93939 to be able to pay it off. Or, to put it another way, that's how much money the average American has. The National Debt is the difference between dollars created by government spending, and dollars destroyed by taxation. Nonsense. Absolute, unadulterated gibberish. Nonsense. Absolute, unadulterated gibberish. Thank you for your well thought through and detailed rebuttal. Could you perhaps explain what the national debt is, if it is not the difference between the amount spent by the government, and the amount collected in taxes? Nonsense. Absolute, unadulterated gibberish. Thank you for your well thought through and detailed rebuttal. Could you perhaps explain what the national debt is, if it is not the difference between the amount spent by the government, and the amount collected in taxes? Though not particularly helpful, I don't complain about the comment I've reddened above. But ... Every American owes$93939 to be able to pay it off.
Or, to put it another way, that's how much money the average American has. The National Debt is the difference between dollars created by government spending, and dollars destroyed by taxation.

"Pay it off", and the average American will have (on average) no money at all.

The claims reddened here are preposterous. Do you think there is some measure of "money" that equals 31 Trillion exactly?

The national debt was about zero in 1915, and was also relatively low in 1975. Do you contend that the "average American" had little or no money in those years? During the late 1990's -- considered a Boom era -- substantial debt was paid off. Were Americans getting poorer during this boom?

Thank you for your well thought through and detailed rebuttal.

Could you perhaps explain what the national debt is, if it is not the difference between the amount spent by the government, and the amount collected in taxes?

Though not particularly helpful, I don't complain about the comment I've reddened above. But ...
Every American owes $93939 to be able to pay it off. Or, to put it another way, that's how much money the average American has. The National Debt is the difference between dollars created by government spending, and dollars destroyed by taxation. "Pay it off", and the average American will have (on average) no money at all. The claims reddened here are preposterous. Do you think there is some measure of "money" that equals 31 Trillion exactly? The national debt was about zero in 1915, and was also relatively low in 1975. Do you contend that the "average American" had little or no money in those years? During the late 1990's -- considered a Boom era -- substantial debt was paid off. Were Americans getting poorer during this boom? More much of the money that existed was created by banks as debt rather than created by government as debt. Money is an early system in humanity and the cultures that understood it well on a metaphysical level were sadly also rather small cultures in the deep past that failed for other reasons. We had people who understood the theory of money using numbers with ledgers in their culture's literal stone age. Money can, and should come from and transit to, "the pool of all numbers and contexts", which is infinite and not materially bound. Material money existing not as a contract to the ownership of a number but as an immediate material object is more, in fact, stone age. The gold standard was stone age. Originally the national debt was considered the amount of bonds the government had sold against the gold they held on those bonds. The system was instituted in a way that those who had money at the time could buy more money at a fixed rate, and the "bond" would be what the government owed on the money. Technically the government is supposed to owe that money to private interests, however they also happen to fucking print money. Some countries manage this the most sane way: decide who should be getting money not on the basis of who has it, but on the basis of who lacks it for reasons beyond continuing personal conduct. This is an indirect way to supply those who work so hard in a capitalist society. Diffusion theory: put money in the hands of people who will spend it on the things they need, and then that money goes to industry anyway, but here, they actually have to work for it rather than have done work for it once upon a time. I can see why this form of money supply would look unappealing to those who hoard money, because it makes them work harder to hoard the money, and they remember things like that when it's time to fund a world war. The religion to increase the debt level still higher ---- or is this a cult? It is dishonest to pretend that the issue is about "paying off" the national debt, or about trying to "balance the budget" -- it's about reducing the deficit so that the debt is decreasing to a reasonable level. Such as a debt/gdp of about 80% or less. Or, name what is the maximum reasonable public debt level during non-emergency times. Why is it that everyone who wants the debt level raised higher does not have the honesty to address this question? What do we call it when you crusade for something, but cannot address why you're doing it? and keep repeating falsehoods, such as saying the nation will DEFAULT on its debt if the debt ceiling is not raised higher? Default while you can There will be no default. If the GOP tries to play games with this and shuts down the government, they will soon be hated by vast numbers of American citizens. This will hand the Democrats a great political weapon for 2024. It could end up being a disaster for the GOP. And could be taken as a mandate to do away with the debt ceiling, a mandate to raise taxes, remove tax loopholes. Deal with tax cheats and fix SS et al for the future. McCarthy will like Nutty Newt Gingrich will end up being dumped as speaker of the House. They might try shutting down the U.S. Government, but that will quickly be very temporary. Like when Nutty Newtie tried this stunt. I almost wish the GOP would try this moronic stunt. How would DeSatanist and Orango the Clown react? Or other possible GOP 2024 candidates? Or GOP Senate candidates for 2024? Once again, It Is The Nujbers, Stupid! The cuts to balance the budget to a balanced budget in 10 years as per GOP braying cannot work. The GOP has no real program that they can get by playing this game. If for every American citizen, this means$9,393 a year foe 31 years to elliminate the National Debt, that would be $93,930 to eliminate it in ten. Discretionary spending$1.639 trillion
Non-miiltary. Spending. $.837 trillion Mandatory Spending.$.5.625 trillion
Deficit $1.176 trillion So$1.639 trillion + $5.625 trillion =$7,264 trillion per year budget.

$31 trillion ÷ 10 =$3.1 trillion per year plus estimated $500 deficit per year.$3.6 trillion in cuts to eliminate the National Debt.

Despite bellowing from the GOP we must eliminate the National Debt they have no said what their plan is to do just that. And the GOP has yet to have a plan for the yearly budget as to what they will cut.

Why are Demos/Biden proposing a HIGHER DEFICIT (rather than lower)?
Discretionary spending $1.639 trillion Non-miiltary. Spending.$ .837 trillion
Mandatory Spending. $.5.625 trillion Deficit$1.176 trillion
AGAIN: Where does the $1.176 trillion figure come from? Biden's current deficit is at least$1.4 trillion ( https://www.usdebtclock.org/ ).

(However these numbers are interpreted, this "debt clock" number is clearly lower than that of Biden's budget. It is acknowledged that Biden's proposed budget now increases the deficit, after reducing it from the 2020 record-high level.)

So $1.639 trillion +$5.625 trillion = $7,264 trillion per year budget.$31 trillion ÷ 10 = $3.1 trillion per year plus estimated$500 deficit per year.
$3.6 trillion in cuts to eliminate the National Debt. Despite bellowing from the GOP we must eliminate the National Debt they have no said what their plan is to do just that. And the GOP has yet to have a plan for the yearly budget as to what they will cut. Meaningless Partisan sloganism does not solve anything. Wherever the above numbers come from -- and "$3.6 trillion in cuts to eliminate the National Debt" is incoherent fantasy babble -- whatever it means, it does not change the fact that the current Biden budget increases this year's deficit higher than last year's. Of course every proposed budget for 10 or 20 years later claims to reduce the later debt. Many even promise to "pay off" the national debt and do other miracles "down the line." But the real budgets passed keep increasing the long-term debt as a percent of the economy.

Following the 2020 emergency we should be seeing reduced deficits each year without exception, to conform to the prudent pattern of restricting high deficit ONLY to meet an emergency while otherwise keeping the debt/gdp level down to (or toward) a reasonable level.

It is now the duty of every responsible Congressmember, of either party, to say NO to this insistence on higher debt as a national religion not to be questioned, and to vote against raising the debt limit unless the current deficit is brought down percentagewise from the previous year.

If any disaster happens as a result of the debt vote, such as default or other disruption, the blame will be on all those who approved an increased deficit (like Biden's current budget), and those who made it a Partisan issue, blaming the other Party -- with the greater fault being on whichever Party holds the White House plus one house of Congress.

It is dishonest to take promises of future debt reduction as a fact that there is debt-reduction in the current proposed budget.

Very simply: we need a certain combination of modest spending cuts or tax increases. It would not take much of this to bring down Biden's deficit to below the previous year's level. No one is giving any rationale why instead we must religiously increase the current year's deficit and always raise the debt ceiling to accommodate ever-higher debt (as a percent of the economy) as Biden's present budget does.

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Straight from www.whitehouse.gov. The Budget Of The United States - Fiscal Year 2023 - Summary Tables

Discretionary spending $1.639 trillion Non-miiltary. Spending.$ .837 trillion
Mandatory Spending. $.5.625 trillion Deficit$1.176 trillion

This is where that came from. And that came originally from the OBM.

Straight from www.whitehouse.gov. The Budget Of The United States - Fiscal Year 2023 - Summary Tables

Discretionary spending $1.639 trillion Non-miiltary. Spending.$ .837 trillion
Mandatory Spending. $.5.625 trillion Deficit$1.176 trillion

This is where that came from. And that came originally from the OMB.
Yes, you said that before. But I looked for it there and could not find that number. I.e., the $1.176 trillion. Please tell us where it is found at that site. Maybe it really is there. It's a big site with many links to this and that. Where does it say "Deficit$1.176 trillion"? or that this is Biden's current proposed deficit? It's definitely not on that exact page. Is it a link on that page? The term "Summary Tables" doesn't seem to be there.

One link says he reduced the deficit $1.7 trillion over 2 years ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/brie...it-by-nearly-3-trillion-over-10-years-strong/ ). But that was from the all-time record-high of$3 trillion for 2020. There doesn't seem to be anything saying the current deficit (or Biden's proposed deficit) is down to only $1.176 trillion. Last edited: Ray Dalio is a smart investor with good market timing. His videos -- guessing financial trends over the medium term -- are worth watching for investors AND for people trying to make sense of Fed fiscal and monetary policies. Most of what he teaches is common-sense or evident. This video has some guy summarizing consecutively to Dalio. It may be worth a watch for this thread, since it touches on some of the topics here. Straight from www.whitehouse.gov. The Budget Of The United States - Fiscal Year 2023 - Summary Tables Discretionary spending$1.639 trillion
Non-miiltary. Spending. $.837 trillion Mandatory Spending.$.5.625 trillion
Deficit $1.176 trillion This is where that came from. And that came originally from the OMB. Yes, you said that before. But I looked for it there and could not find that number. I.e., the$1.176 trillion. Please tell us where it is found at that site. Maybe it really is there. It's a big site with many links to this and that.

Where does it say "Deficit $1.176 trillion"? or that this is Biden's current proposed deficit? It's definitely not on that exact page. Is it a link on that page? The term "Summary Tables" doesn't seem to be there. One link says he reduced the deficit$1.7 trillion over 2 years ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/brie...it-by-nearly-3-trillion-over-10-years-strong/ ). But that was from the all-time record-high of $3 trillion for 2020. There doesn't seem to be anything saying the current deficit (or Biden's proposed deficit) is down to only$1.176 trillion.

The 2023 budget is a PDF that lays it all out. Check that PDF's summary table. Those tables are the source from OBM. OBM is constrained to figure budgets from present day official buget plans. Which of course are subject to change. If the GOP manages to get Trump's tax cuts made permanent, such estimates will change. If Biden fails to get his tax increases, these summaries will change. Estimated future budgets are there for 2024 and 2025 as well. Cutting our way to a balanced budget is still not possible. The necessary cuts will never be tolerable to the American public.

Straight from www.whitehouse.gov. The Budget Of The United States - Fiscal Year 2023 - Summary Tables

Discretionary spending $1.639 trillion Non-miiltary. Spending.$ .837 trillion
Mandatory Spending. $.5.625 trillion Deficit$1.176 trillion

This is where that came from. And that came originally from the OMB.
Yes, you said that before. But I looked for it there and could not find that number. I.e., the $1.176 trillion. Please tell us where it is found at that site. Maybe it really is there. It's a big site with many links to this and that. Where does it say "Deficit$1.176 trillion"? or that this is Biden's current proposed deficit? It's definitely not on that exact page. Is it a link on that page? The term "Summary Tables" doesn't seem to be there.

One link says he reduced the deficit $1.7 trillion over 2 years ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/brie...it-by-nearly-3-trillion-over-10-years-strong/ ). But that was from the all-time record-high of$3 trillion for 2020. There doesn't seem to be anything saying the current deficit (or Biden's proposed deficit) is down to only $1.176 trillion. The 2023 budget is a PDF that lays it all out. Check that PDF's summary table. Those tables are the source from OBM. OBM is constrained to figure budgets from present day official budget plans. Which of course are subject to change. If the GOP manages to get Trump's tax cuts made permanent, such estimates will change. If Biden fails to get his tax increases, these summaries will change. Estimated future budgets are there for 2024 and 2025 as well. Cutting our way to a balanced budget is still not possible. The necessary cuts will never be tolerable to the American public. As long as you keep repeating "balanced budget" rhetoric you're showing you don't know what's going on. It's not meaningless slogans that we need. We need sufficient tax increases and spending cuts so that the deficit is reduced. Both spending cuts and tax increases are possible. If it doesn't happen, Congressmembers should vote against raising the debt ceiling. We need tax increases? No shit, Sherlock. But with the GOP having signed on the Grover Norquist pledge to never raise taxes for any reason, as long as the GOP holds the House and the Senate is barely in control of the Senate, FAT CHANCE! Now with the GOP spooked over slashing Social Security to to U.S. voter hostility, what can realistically be cut to achieve$1.2 trillion cuts?

At this point in time we have the stupidest Republicans braying and bellowing to cut the deficits. But the GOP still has not produced an official GOP budget. And most certainly not one with any possibility od balancing the budget.

And we still have a \$31 trillion national debt to consider. Again, the GOP and their 40 years of big tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations gets a big portion of blame for that. And over the years right wingers and GOP politicians have been shrieking about that. But have never showed us a budget plan to do that.

The only way out is for a future election to decimate the GOP, hand overwhelming control to the Democrats, who can finally do the right thing.

Until then, nothing much can be done, nothing much will be done. It is time to be realistic about this.