NATO's new insane policy in the Ukraine.

[laughing dog]

Crimean parliament voted on secession before russian troops "arrival".

Not according to published reports in the NY times (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/world/europe/crimea-ukraine-secession-vote-referendum.html)

Russian troops "arrived" to prevent ukrainian "army" from doing something stupid like bombing civilian population before election. And don't forget all this happened after relatively small bunch of fucking nazi and general assholes forced democratically elected government out.

So because some neo-nazis and lots of general assholes forced out a democratically elected but corrupt gov't out that justifies a gigantic antisemitic and homophobic asshole (Putin) to send in troops.

Now, all these technicalities are fun to discuss but you are certifiably insane if you think secession does not reflect what people wanted.

It is disingenuous to claim that there is not the appearance of coercion when this secession vote occurred at the point of a gun.

 

[dystopian]

Not according to published reports in the NY times

That's talking about the referendum itself; he's probably talking about the parliament's decision, which happened some time later (while they had about 60 guns trained on them, I might add). Unfortunately for Barbos, there were reports of Russian forces operating in the region prior to that as well, so his claim still doesn't hold up.

 

[barbos]

Not according to published reports in the NY times (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/world/europe/crimea-ukraine-secession-vote-referendum.html)

NY times can go to hell.

Russian troops "arrived" to prevent ukrainian "army" from doing something stupid like bombing civilian population before election. And don't forget all this happened after relatively small bunch of fucking nazi and general assholes forced democratically elected government out.

So because some neo-nazis and lots of general assholes forced out a democratically elected but corrupt gov't out that justifies a gigantic antisemitic and homophobic asshole (Putin) to send in troops.

antisemitic???? since when?
And which government is not corrupt?

Now, all these technicalities are fun to discuss but you are certifiably insane if you think secession does not reflect what people wanted.

It is disingenuous to claim that there is not the appearance of coercion when this secession vote occurred at the point of a gun.

That's a lie.
But voting in Ukrainian parliament was at the point of a gun indeed.

 

[laughing dog]

NY times can go to hell.

I don't see how that disproves the fact that the troops where in Crimea prior to the secession.

That's a lie.

The armed troops were there. So, it is not a lie.

But voting in Ukrainian parliament was at the point of a gun indeed.

Prove it.

 

[barbos]

Not according to published reports in the NY times

That's talking about the referendum itself; he's probably talking about the parliament's decision, which happened some time later (while they had about 60 guns trained on them, I might add). Unfortunately for Barbos, there were reports of Russian forces operating in the region prior to that as well, so his claim still doesn't hold up.

Unfortunately for you there are reports that you are full of shit

 

[barbos]

Latest funny from Ukrainian government.
They now have 3 foreigners in their new government - Lithuanian (investment scams monkey), American (former State Department monkey) and Georgian (former minister in Georgia). First two speak ukrainian, georgian does not, Yatsenuk tried to switch to english, but some (well, most actually) ministers don't speak english, so imagine the horror of switching to russian

 

[Jayjay]

Yes, it has been discussed to death, which is why it's odd that you keep repeating the same falsehoods that you did in those threads even after they have been refuted several times. Nuland wasn't conspiring to install Yatsenyuk as the premier, that suggestion came from Yanukovich.

Then look up Victoria Nuland and Chevron where she gives a speech in which she claims that the US had invested $5 billion in the democracy movement in Ukraine. What "democracy movement" could she mean for a country that already had a democratically elected government. Oh yeah, that's what we called those armed neo-Nazi protestors.

Nuland said that US has invested $5 billion since 1991. That's a time span of almost 25 years, over multiple different governments. Do you have evidence of any particular amount of that money going to neo nazis? No, of course you don't.

Victoria Nuland, by the way, is married to Robert Kagan a well-known neo-con whose brother, Frederick came up with the "surge" plan for Iraq. So those neo-cons who got Bush to lie us into war in Iraq and still busy running the show under Obama.

And they probably faked the moonlanding as well.

The problem with your points is that they are wrong. I not only made the charges, I documented them which is something you have never done with respect to your counter-claims. When you have dealt with the documentation that I provided you have either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented the material. So now you've made claims. Let's see your documentation for those claims.

You haven't documented anything, while I've given multiple links in the past. Most recently, in "Can a new Cold War be avoided" thread. I linked to the transcript of the Nuland call. I produced a BBC news article that shows Yanukovich suggested Yetsenyuk for the post of premier before Nuland call even happened. What have you ever produced to support your crazy-ass conspiracy theories? Except irrelevancies like "she is married to the brother of someone who did something else some other time".

As for the 5 billion dollar support to neo nazis, here is the transcript of her remarks at the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation Conference. Quote:

Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.

Where is your evidence that even part of this money was funneled to neo nazis in any shape or form? Furthermore, it's not up to me to prove a negative, it's for you who is making a positive claim to come up with the proof. Your dishonest debating tactics and childish "it is too!" arguments are tiresome. Either support your case with evidence, or shut the fuck up when adults are talking.

 

[barbos]

I don't see how that disproves the fact that the troops where in Crimea prior to the secession.

Of course they were, they have always been there, they have been there for the last 250 years.

That's a lie.

The armed troops were there. So, it is not a lie.

But voting in Ukrainian parliament was at the point of a gun indeed.

Prove it.

Prove what? that it was a violent coup?

 

[Jayjay]

The problem with your points is that they are wrong. I not only made the charges, I documented them which is something you have never done with respect to your counter-claims. When you have dealt with the documentation that I provided you have either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented the material. So now you've made claims. Let's see your documentation for those claims.

What documentation? You have provided no such thing. All you've provided are vague interpretations of a phonecall; interpretations that are themselves unsupported by any independent documentation. To people like you (conspiracy theorists), a fact like Nuland being married to a man who'se *brother* came up with a plan to reinforce troops operating in a theater that has SHIT ALL to do with Ukraine, constitutes actual evidence. To sane people, it constitutes... nothing. Pointing out things like that is the equivalent, as Jayjay was implying, of pointing out that the head of Nasa at the time was married to a woman who'se brother had a friend who'se husband had connections in Hollywood... and therefore the moon landing was faked in a studio.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[barbos]

Where is your evidence that even part of this money was funneled to neo nazis in any shape or form? Furthermore, it's not up to me to prove a negative, it's for you who is making a positive claim to come up with the proof. Your dishonest debating tactics and childish "it is too!" arguments are tiresome. Either support your case with evidence, or shut the fuck up when adults are talking.

Well, according to neo nazi themselves, Nuland offered them money ($15mil if I remember correctly what he said) to become an actual party, they refused.
Imagine Russia giving money to some group in US, that's right, this would be ridiculous, but when it comes to US and their "nation building" experiments it's pretty damn usual to give money to some groups, be it in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria, you name it. And americans themselves admit that they know nothing about the people they give money to, well, except that they don't like the government US dislikes too.

 

[Jayjay]

Where is your evidence that even part of this money was funneled to neo nazis in any shape or form? Furthermore, it's not up to me to prove a negative, it's for you who is making a positive claim to come up with the proof. Your dishonest debating tactics and childish "it is too!" arguments are tiresome. Either support your case with evidence, or shut the fuck up when adults are talking.

Well, according to neo nazi themselves, Nuland offered them money ($15mil if I remember correctly what he said) to become an actual party, they refused.

If they refused, then in the end the money was not funneled to neo nazis at least in this case. Even if we were to assume that this story is true and not just another piece of Russian propaganda, it sounds like US is spending money trying to moderate extremist (and other) groups by incentivizing their joining the political process.

Imagine Russia giving money to some group in US, that's right, this would be ridiculous, but when it comes to US and their "nation building" experiments it's pretty damn usual to give money to some groups, be it in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria, you name it. And americans themselves admit that they know nothing about the people they give money to, well, except that they don't like the government US dislikes too.

I don't know about the US, but Russia is funding extremists movements in other NATO countries.

Russia funds French National Front: is Moscow sowing European unrest?

Russia has also reportedly lent money to Greece’s neofascist Golden Dawn, Italy’s Northern League and other anti-Europe parties

​​​​Marine Le Pen has admitted that her far-right Front National accepted money from a Russian bank, amid growing evidence that the Kremlin is backing anti-European parties across the continent.

Le Pen said that her party had received a loan of €9 million (£7 million) in September from the Russian-owned First Czech-Russian Bank, but insisted that the money would have no impact on her policies.

(...)

Russian loans have also been extended to Greece’s neofascist Golden Dawn party, Belgium’s Vlaams Belang, Italy’s Northern League, Hungary’s Jobbik and the Freedom Party of Austria, The Times reports. All of these parties except Golden Dawn were invited to observe Crimea's vote on joining Russia and all offered their support for the annexation of the south-eastern Ukrainian region.

 

[dystopian]

antisemitic???? since when?

Putin himself may not be antisemitic, but anti-semitism is apparently increasingly common in Russia; and it is in large part due to Putin's promotion of nationalism.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...ing-russia-simon-wiesenthal-center-accuses-rt

"The report notes public statements from politicians, like the member of Putin's United Russia party in Kaliningrad who accused his opponents of being "Jews, hiding among the opposition" and destroying the country."

"In February, the news anchor of Rossiya24, one of Russia's largest state-controlled television channels, agreed with the ardently nationalistic (and often anti-Semitic) author Alexander Prokhanov, who said that Jewish organizations "were ushering in a second Holocaust with their own hands ... just as they ushered in the first one."

"And last month, the Jewish daily newspaper the Forward noted that Russian state television's hatchet-job "documentaries" about Ukrainian politicians Yulia Tymoshenko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk stressed, in ominous terms, their allegedly nefarious Jewish roots."

And which government is not corrupt?

Pretty much any country that isn't Russia, it seems.; or at least absurdly less so.

That's a lie.
But voting in Ukrainian parliament was at the point of a gun indeed.

...

Really? It is a *fact* that 60 armed gunmen occupied the Crimean parliament building, and forced the politicians there to vote. That is not a lie; it is documented fact. It is ridiculously easy to google it and find plentiful documentation to attest to the fact. Meanwhile, little documentation exists to support the notion that the Ukrainian parliament's vote to remove Yanukovych from power was done with the presence of armed men in the building. In fact, there's NO documentation to support said notion. The only evidence that you've ever put forth to back up this claim is the supposed presence of armed protestors somewhere outside the parliament building; which may or may not be the case but that is very different from what happened in the Crimean parliament's vote.

Unfortunately for you there are reports that you are full of shit

Reports? What reports? Reports put out by Russians? There are no independent reports that dispute the fact that armed soldiers occupied the Crimean parliament immediately after which an emergency vote was called. That this happened is an indisputable fact.

 

[laughing dog]

That's talking about the referendum itself; he's probably talking about the parliament's decision, which happened some time later (while they had about 60 guns trained on them, I might add). Unfortunately for Barbos, there were reports of Russian forces operating in the region prior to that as well, so his claim still doesn't hold up.

Unfortunately for you there are reports that you are full of shit

Unless you link to those reports, your claim is more than ironic.

 

[lpetrich]

Did anyone find the originals of the two bits of Vladimir Putin personality cultism that I had composed and posted here?

I was having some fun at the expense of Russia's defenders here. Especially those who completely fall for Russia's officially-stated position. Russian "volunteers" my hiney! It's like how the Bay of Pigs invasion was presented as being gringo-free.

Putin does indeed have a personality cult going: Putin birthday celebration: Cult of personality festival for Russian leader.

 

[boneyard bill]

Did anyone find the originals of the two bits of Vladimir Putin personality cultism that I had composed and posted here?

I was having some fun at the expense of Russia's defenders here. Especially those who completely fall for Russia's officially-stated position. Russian "volunteers" my hiney! It's like how the Bay of Pigs invasion was presented as being gringo-free.

Putin does indeed have a personality cult going: Putin birthday celebration: Cult of personality festival for Russian leader.

What personality cult? What is in dispute is the absurd claim that Putin is an expansionist who wants to re-build the Soviet Union. Meanwhile it is the US, not Russia that has military bases in those Central Asian republics that used to be in the Soviet Union. It is the US that admitted for Soviet republics, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia to NATO. It is the US that sponsored membership in NATO for Ukraine and Georgia. What has Putin done? He invaded Georgia, yes, but only after provocation. Then he left without even setting up a puppet regime. He has recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia (also parts of the former Soviet Union) as independent states.

Meanwhile, he has refused to recognize the independence of Lugansk and Donetsk much less annexed them as their governments have proposed. Instead, he has continued to push for a unified, non-aligned Ukraine. The only "expansionism" he has engaged in is in Crimea which is vital to Russian interests and which he absolutely cannot allow to fall into the hands of a NATO country.

The "expansionist" Putin myth is pure propaganda written in the bowels of US State Department and promoted uncritically by the US media, but any serious look at the facts shows it to be utter nonsense. The expansionism has almost all been on the part of NATO which simply means American expansionism as we pretty much control that organization.

Unfortunately, some people on these boards have fallen for this ridiculous propaganda, and it remains for others of us to refute it simply by pointing to some obvious facts. But stating the fact that Putin is not an expansionist doesn't make up a "personality cult." Putin is simply looking out for Russia's interests. He isn't a dictator, but he is a political boss. He knows what he's doing, and he has been much more cautious than US and Western leaders. I assume he has a distaste for nuclear war.

If there is any reason to admire him over Western leaders, it is because he does know what he is doing and apparently, our own leader do not.

 

[barbos]

Well, according to neo nazi themselves, Nuland offered them money ($15mil if I remember correctly what he said) to become an actual party, they refused.

If they refused, then in the end the money was not funneled to neo nazis at least in this case.

Does not matter, fact is, they tried and it was only one case which nazi proudly admitted. Fact is, ukrainiana nazi don't like US.

Even if we were to assume that this story is true and not just another piece of Russian propaganda, it sounds like US is spending money trying to moderate extremist (and other) groups by incentivizing their joining the political process.

Right, according to this logic US should give money to Al Kaida, wait, they do already.

Imagine Russia giving money to some group in US, that's right, this would be ridiculous, but when it comes to US and their "nation building" experiments it's pretty damn usual to give money to some groups, be it in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria, you name it. And americans themselves admit that they know nothing about the people they give money to, well, except that they don't like the government US dislikes too.

I don't know about the US, but Russia is funding extremists movements in other NATO countries.

Russia funds French National Front: is Moscow sowing European unrest?

Since when French National Front are extremists? And they don't give money and it has nothing to do with Russian government. They took a loan in a bank which happened to belong to a russian guy. It's not even russian bank.
US government on the other hand directly funds opposition and different groups.

 

[barbos]

Unfortunately for you there are reports that you are full of shit

Unless you link to those reports, your claim is more than ironic.

Why should I do that?
You have not done it yet.

 

[barbos]

Did anyone find the originals of the two bits of Vladimir Putin personality cultism that I had composed and posted here?

I was having some fun at the expense of Russia's defenders here. Especially those who completely fall for Russia's officially-stated position. Russian "volunteers" my hiney! It's like how the Bay of Pigs invasion was presented as being gringo-free.

Putin does indeed have a personality cult going: Putin birthday celebration: Cult of personality festival for Russian leader.

Yes, Putin has that, and US/EU is not helping with this problem, they only make it worse.

 

[laughing dog]

Unless you link to those reports, your claim is more than ironic.

Why should I do that?
You have not done it yet.

As a matter of fact I have. And as a matter of fact, you have not. I am particularly interested in the links that report dystopian is full of shit. I don't believe there are such reports.

 

[Jayjay]

If they refused, then in the end the money was not funneled to neo nazis at least in this case.

Does not matter, fact is, they tried and it was only one case which nazi proudly admitted.

Until you document that claim, it's not a "fact". More than likely it's just some horse shit made up by Russian state propaganda that you misremembered... after a quick googling I wasn't able to find any reference to this type of offer, but if you have a link, it'd be much appreciated.

Even if we were to assume that this story is true and not just another piece of Russian propaganda, it sounds like US is spending money trying to moderate extremist (and other) groups by incentivizing their joining the political process.

Right, according to this logic US should give money to Al Kaida, wait, they do already.

No. According to this "logic", if I were to offer you $1000 to stop murdering people, but you refused the offer because you like murder more than you like money, that would make me guilty of supporting murderers even though no money exhanged hands.

Imagine Russia giving money to some group in US, that's right, this would be ridiculous, but when it comes to US and their "nation building" experiments it's pretty damn usual to give money to some groups, be it in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria, you name it. And americans themselves admit that they know nothing about the people they give money to, well, except that they don't like the government US dislikes too.

I don't know about the US, but Russia is funding extremists movements in other NATO countries.

Russia funds French National Front: is Moscow sowing European unrest?

Since when French National Front are extremists? And they don't give money and it has nothing to do with Russian government. They took a loan in a bank which happened to belong to a russian guy. It's not even russian bank.
US government on the other hand directly funds opposition and different groups.

Your mileage may vary, but the French National Front and the other parties listed are in the same ballpark of extemism as the Svoboda party in Ukraine for example.