Nero did not persecute Christians

[credoconsolans]

not for the Great Fire of Rome anyway.

Candida Moss, author of my favorite recent book "The Myth of Persecution" writes

"...Most of the historical evidence for Nero persecuting Christians comes to us from the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote between 115-120 CE, at least fifty years after the events he was describing...

In his recent Journal of Roman Studies article “The Myth of the Neronian Persecution,” distinguished Princeton classicist Brent Shaw has argued that Tacitus’s story is a later fabrication..."


http://www.thedailybeast.com/nero-t...-biggest-fake-news-in-early-christian-history

 

[Lion IRC]

If we can't believe Tacitus because he is 50 years belated, why should we bother with Brent Shaw? Because he's a "classicist"?
LOL

 

[Lion IRC]

"Shaw points out that there are no references to Christians in the writings of any Roman historians prior to Tacitus"

Saul of Tarsus was a Roman historian.

 

[Lion IRC]

Shaw's killer argument in defense of Nero;
To this day people use the expression “fiddled while Rome burned” to refer to Nero’s conduct – but violins wouldn’t be invented until the 11th century.

Except real classicists wrote...

"The analysis of the first concept of fiddling requires a survey of stringed instruments in the age of Nero. They were essentially those used in the ancient Greek festivals, particularly the festivals dedicated to Apollo and Dionysus. The outstanding stringed instruments were the cithara and the lyre. The two instruments were similar but not identical, and their invention was variously ascribed to Hermes, Orpheus, Amphion, or Linus. The cithara was derived from the ancient Assyrian kethara, and was called by Homer kytheris"

The Classical Journal Vol. 42, No. 4 (Jan. 1947), 211‑217.

 

[iolo]

How many Romans were ever able to write safely about their 'great' contemporaries in Imperial times? Augustus has always struck me as the model for Stalin, and it was pretty well downhill all the way after that.

 

[repoman]

he died in 68 AD, I doubt that xtians had very much going on by that time at all.

They probably lied and used his persecution of over groups and claimed it as their own.

 

[LordKiran]

How many Romans were ever able to write safely about their 'great' contemporaries in Imperial times? Augustus has always struck me as the model for Stalin, and it was pretty well downhill all the way after that.

Hey Vespasian seems like he was a pretty cool guy. Sure he massacred the jews but that sort of ugly business was/is par for the course for empires.

 

[bilby]

he died in 68 AD, I doubt that xtians had very much going on by that time at all.

They probably lied and used his persecution of over groups and claimed it as their own.

Or perhaps the Christians once overheard him say 'Happy Holidays' in December. Which, frankly, is about as bad as persecution gets.

 

[iolo]

How many Romans were ever able to write safely about their 'great' contemporaries in Imperial times? Augustus has always struck me as the model for Stalin, and it was pretty well downhill all the way after that.

Hey Vespasian seems like he was a pretty cool guy. Sure he massacred the jews but that sort of ugly business was/is par for the course for empires.

Did anyone publish critical comments in his time?

- - - Updated - - -

he died in 68 AD, I doubt that xtians had very much going on by that time at all.

They probably lied and used his persecution of over groups and claimed it as their own.

Or perhaps the Christians once overheard him say 'Happy Holidays' in December. Which, frankly, is about as bad as persecution gets.

I expect that's what his Mother thought!

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

he died in 68 AD, I doubt that xtians had very much going on by that time at all.

They probably lied and used his persecution of over groups and claimed it as their own.

I think it's more likely that Jews, not Xians, were the targets of Nero's persecution, if anybody.

 

[iolo]

he died in 68 AD, I doubt that xtians had very much going on by that time at all.

They probably lied and used his persecution of over groups and claimed it as their own.

I think it's more likely that Jews, not Xians, were the targets of Nero's persecution, if anybody.

Have we any evidence that he made a distinction?

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

I think it's more likely that Jews, not Xians, were the targets of Nero's persecution, if anybody.

Have we any evidence that he made a distinction?

Not especially. I just think it's highly unlikely there were enough Xians around yet to bother Nero or any other Romans to the extent they'd be the subject of any kind of persecution. The number of Xians in the Roman Empire at the time has been estimated at around 2000, most of whom would probably be in the Eastern provinces, so I can't imagine they would break 3 figures by much, if at all, in Rome. An insignificant number, not worth the persecuting, and certainly nothing like the "immense multitude" cited in Tacitus. There were, however, significant numbers of Jews at Rome, and this was a particularly seditious era for Jews in the Empire; the year after the Great Fire, Judea broke out into open revolt. This, to me, makes them a more believable target for persecution (or, more correctly in this case, retribution, even if the result of a false accusation) than the insignificant Xian community of the time.

OTOH, we do know that, by the time Tacitus was writing in the reign of Trajan, Xians were drawing the authorities' attention to themselves by refusing to sacrifice to the Emperor (letters of Pliny the younger and Trajan), so it might make political sense at the time to target them as the victims of a previous persecution. Yes, even as victims, because, in the passage of the Annals, they are not targeted because of the Fire, but because of their "hatred against mankind". So it might have just been a subtle dig at the Xians of Tacitus' time, who were beginning to show themselves in an anti-establishment light.

All this, of course, is assuming that the passage is genuine, and not an interpolation inserted between the writing of the Annals and the oldest extant manuscript, which is from the 11th century. Most modern scholars consider it to be genuine, but given that Suetonius and Cassius Dio mention the fire but not the persecution, and that the Church, which could have used it to show an early Xian presence in Rome (as well as an addition to their persecution propaganda machine), made no mention of it before the 15th century, when the manuscript was discovered), there must remain some reasonable doubt remaining.

 

[OLDMAN]

I think most of the history comes to us from the coliseum records themselves. The were pretty acute record keepers, how many lions were used, gladiators fought, etc. It is from these records that we discover that about 90% of the christians killed were women.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

I think most of the history comes to us from the coliseum records themselves. The were pretty acute record keepers, how many lions were used, gladiators fought, etc. It is from these records that we discover that about 90% of the christians killed were women.

If by "coliseum" you mean the Colosseum in Rome ... there is no evidence that any Xians were ever executed in that edifice.

 

[OLDMAN]

I think most of the history comes to us from the coliseum records themselves. The were pretty acute record keepers, how many lions were used, gladiators fought, etc. It is from these records that we discover that about 90% of the christians killed were women.

If by "coliseum" you mean the Colosseum in Rome ... there is no evidence that any Xians were ever executed in that edifice.

Really? The Catholic Church has many martyrs from such events.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

If by "coliseum" you mean the Colosseum in Rome ... there is no evidence that any Xians were ever executed in that edifice.

Really? The Catholic Church has many martyrs from such events.

Sure, they have their martyrs, although they invented many of those and often exaggerated their tortures way out of all proportion. But no such "event" was ever held at the Colosseum in Rome, as far as records show. I know it's the classic image - hungry lions approaching kneeling Xians in the familiar arena - but it's an invented one.

 

[bilby]

If by "coliseum" you mean the Colosseum in Rome ... there is no evidence that any Xians were ever executed in that edifice.

Really? The Catholic Church has many martyrs from such events.

The list of things that the Catholic Church claims, but that are simply not true, is not a short one.