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Netanyahu on Middle East Disarmament

SLD

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Here is a comment being attributed to Benjamin Netanyahu (although I am not so sure of the source so someone can correct me):

If Palestinians were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be no Israel.

What are your thoughts on this? Is this a one-sided plea for unilateral disarmament? Or is there some truth to his point of view?

It seems to me that there is a ring of truth to it, but there are a lot of caveats. Certainly if a neighboring country were to have no military (like Costa Rica) it wouldn't necessarily be attacked. In fact it is not a threat and thus there's little need to attack it. But it does presume that your neighbors have good intentions, and Israel isn't always a simple good neighbor.

SLD
 
Need to know how he would finish this sentence.

"If Palestinians were to lay down their guns tomorrow, the settlements would...."

Because the West Bank history seems to indicate that if Palestinians laid down their arms - there would be no Palestine.
 
This is part of the false dichotomy that underlies most of the discussion. I doubt there are any moderate people who are asking Israel to "lay down its arms". There are variations on this I see presented in online arguments all the time, with words like "If Israel sat idly by..." and such.
 
It's a one-sided plea.

Where the Palestinians have laid down their arms, their leaders have be assassinated, their country forcibly occupied, and the land then parcelled out to settlers. The West Bank demonstrates that clearly enough.

However, unlike Israel, Palestine has never asked their neighbour to disarm, so it's a bit odd that Netanyahu presents this as the only possible alternative to using high explosives in crowded areas.
 
This is part of the false dichotomy that underlies most of the discussion. I doubt there are any moderate people who are asking Israel to "lay down its arms". There are variations on this I see presented in online arguments all the time, with words like "If Israel sat idly by..." and such.

I don't disagree. It does create a false dichotomy. As Rhea points out the Jewish settlements on the West Bank are a problem, and many Jews believe that the West Bank should be rid of Palestinians. So it's hardly clear that there would be peace, other than a peace of conquest. Hardly acceptable.

But is there a difference between the aims of Israel and the aims of Hamas? Perhaps I misunderstand, but if I have been led to believe that for the most part Israel has no objection to the establishment of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. The leadership at least supports these in principal. But the leadership of the Palestinians does not support the continued existence of Israel as a state.

Upon further research, I saw an interesting article by a Palestinian writer claiming he has no problem with the Jewish people, and can live peaceably with them. But he never said anything about recognizing the state of Israel and its right to exist. Other Palestinian leaders, particularly Hamas leaders have explicitly stated that the state of Israel can never be recognized. That seems to me too extreme and does create an issue that gives some legitimacy (some!) to Netanyahu's comment. This isn't two sides of the same coin. Israel is willing to recognize a Palestinian state (if I am wrong on that please point me to a link) but the Palestinians (at least their leadership) is not willing to recognize Israel's right to exist.

So should Israel, at least as a Jewish state, give it up? Is that the only real solution? Then everyone that is there can form a big state, and it can be a secular state composed of a variety of religious beliefs, Jewish and Muslim primarily, and everyone will live and peace and harmony? Somehow I don't think that will work. I hear a lot of criticisms on this board of Israel, as well as from a lot of others on the left. I can't disagree with a lot of it, but I don't know the actual solution. I still remain in general a supporter of Israel. It's basically a free democracy - at least compared to the other Mid-east states.

Thoughts?

SLD
 
When Netanyahu says he wants peace what he is saying is that he wants to be allowed to continue to slowly take the West Bank and continue to imprison and oppress the Palestinians.

That is the peace he offers.

This matter is far beyond his hands to improve.

A good idea might be a UN buffer placed between the two groups and massive UN persuasion to begin negotiations without unilateral conditions between the two parties.

These attacks every couple of years are monstrous.
 
This is part of the false dichotomy that underlies most of the discussion. I doubt there are any moderate people who are asking Israel to "lay down its arms". There are variations on this I see presented in online arguments all the time, with words like "If Israel sat idly by..." and such.

I don't disagree. It does create a false dichotomy. As Rhea points out the Jewish settlements on the West Bank are a problem, and many Jews believe that the West Bank should be rid of Palestinians. So it's hardly clear that there would be peace, other than a peace of conquest. Hardly acceptable.

But is there a difference between the aims of Israel and the aims of Hamas? Perhaps I misunderstand, but if I have been led to believe that for the most part Israel has no objection to the establishment of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. The leadership at least supports these in principal. But the leadership of the Palestinians does not support the continued existence of Israel as a state.

Israel has specifically blocked moves by the Palestinians to form a legal state, even one without clearly defined borders. The most recent attempt was to gain recognition as a state via applying for UN observer status. Israel blocked the move.

Israel has formally agreed to seek a two-state solution. So has the Palestinian President. Various political groups within Palestine and Israel have also proposed or supported this, including Hamas. Extremists on both sides have opposed it. However, there are caveats on both sides.

Israel does not want an armed Palestinian state, with sovereignty over it's own land, or control over its own borders, and has never offered this as part of an agreement. It wants to reserve the right to assassinate people in Palestine at will. It also does not want to give up all of the existing settlements, or the existing military bases scattered throughout Palestinian territory. And it rejects outright the internationally agreed 1967 border as the starting point for negotiations. It wants to include all of Jerusalem, and many of the larger settlements, as being in its own territory. None of this is just a matter of leadership, it's also a matter of what any Israeli leader could get support for.

Similarly, Palestine has offered to recognise Israel as a state, but not as a Jewish state. It wants a recognition of the rights of Palestinians to return to their homes in Israel, to be settled by cash payment rather than actual returnees. And it's not willing to accept anything less than the full statehood that Israel has.

There are, of course, a lot of politically influential extremists on both sides who want to destroy the other. The Palestinian ones want to destroy Israel entirely, and the Israeli ones want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank, to claim a Greater Israel. Hamas more so that Fatah has the support of a great many militants, while the ruling coalition in Israel is made up partly of settler groups who talk about a 'Greater Israel' from the jordan to the Sea (I.e. including all of what is proposed as Palestine).

I hear a lot of criticisms on this board of Israel, as well as from a lot of others on the left. I can't disagree with a lot of it, but I don't know the actual solution.

Well I see three possible end-states.

A single state solution would end up with one state covering all of Israel and Palestine. This doesn't really suit anyone except the extremists, since the state would no longer be Jewish in any useful sense. However, it is presently where the settlement program is taking us - if Israel takes the land, and can't get rid of the a Palestinians, then it either loses its distinctive identity, or will no longer be democratic (because it will contain too many non-Jewish Palestinians).

The single state alternative is to somehow kill or cleanse enough of the Palestinians from the region to end up with a Jewish majority. There have been some signs of that strategy from Israel, with measures such as allowing Palestinians to leave the area, but then deny them the right to return, and attempts to arbitrarily restrict goods or otherwise frustrate or obstruct the inhabitants from developing economically. But in general, the measures that are needed for this to be effective go beyond what Israel is willing to do.

So rejecting a single state leaves us with a two state solution. Israel withdraws all the settlements back to the 1967 line, with some lands swaps to include the largest settlements in Israel and to make a more sensible border, stops or pays Palestine to continue the extraction of water or mineral from their territory, and the right to Return gets settled by token payments from Israel to Palestine that are then heavily subsidised by the states of the Arab League, and you end up with two states living side by side who really, really, really don't like each other. In practice the border should be monitored by a neutral force, potentially for decades to come.

The last seems to be the most viable solution, is emerging as a clear consensus from all the various peace proposals from each side, and is loosely based on suggestions made over the last decade. However, it would require Israel to let their enemy build a viable state with a proper military, and dismantle the settlements. Not surprisingly, they aren't keen.

The point is that we already know what the peace would look like, we already know what's necessary to accomplish it in practice, but on Israel's side there isn't the political will to do it. Hence why there is so much criticism of Israel, both here on the boards and increasingly around the world. They're in the driving seat, only they can do what's necessary, and they don't want to do it.
 
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