New "don't say gay" bill in Florida

[TomC]

But I understand the confusion (I guess).

It looked like a response to Sigma, since it followed immediately.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Teachers don't need permission from parents to do their job. They work for the school board. Let me ask you something, do you believe that a student is more likely to succeed with or without parent participation?

 

[Gospel]

But I understand the confusion (I guess).

It looked like a response to Sigma, since it followed immediately.
Tom

It was a reply to clarify that I do not fucking believe teachers need permission from parents to teach. But again, people just think I'm being dishonest so fuck off.

 

[TomC]

Teachers don't need permission from parents to do their job. They work for the school board. Let me ask you something, do you believe that a student is more likely to succeed with or without parent participation?

Are you asking me this?

I think that the main reason Catholic and other private schools out perform the public schools so much is due to having more engaged and invested parents. Parental participation is crucial.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Teachers don't need permission from parents to do their job. They work for the school board. Let me ask you something, do you believe that a student is more likely to succeed with or without parent participation?

Are you asking me this?

I think that the main reason Catholic and other private schools out perform the public schools so much is due to having more engaged and invested parents. Parental participation is crucial.
Tom

That's all I was saying in my reply to that video and why I was in agreement with the parent in that video as that's why she was upset. Y'all must have saw who posted the video and thought some other shit. Something dumb like not wanted teachers to teach sexuality or Rhea accusing me of assuming that all parents are available and/or capable of being supportive EVEN THOUGH I ALREADY RECOGNIZED THAT IN MY FUCKING POST.

 

[Gospel]

Look I'm all for people challenging my positions but you gotta get my positions right first. Gosh

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Look I'm all for people challenging my positions but you gotta get my positions right first. Gosh

Would you consider explaining your position? I actually object to looking at anything on Twitter on principle.

 

[Jarhyn]

@SigmatheZeta @Gospel this is dumb.

@SigmatheZeta it seems @Gospel feels entirely appropriately that the conversation of whether a child is themselves gay or lesbian is a topic to discuss with parents, whenever possible.

A teacher having the "maybe you're gay" talk with a kid is a step too much.

Maybe the kid starts the "maybe I'm gay" conversation at which point the teacher says nothing beyond facts about gay and straight people and that both are valid lives to live is as far as it should extend

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

These views are compatible.

 

[Gospel]

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

I never made the claim that teachers need parents' permission to teach in fact I've repeatedly said it's their job.

 

[Gospel]

Look I'm all for people challenging my positions but you gotta get my positions right first. Gosh

Would you consider explaining your position? I actually object to looking at anything on Twitter on principle.

As my post was entirely about the video you object to watching then maybe it's a good idea to object to reading my post as well.

 

[Gospel]

Would you consider explaining your position?

I think I've done enough explaining.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

@SigmatheZeta @Gospel this is dumb.

@SigmatheZeta it seems @Gospel feels entirely appropriately that the conversation of whether a child is themselves gay or lesbian is a topic to discuss with parents, whenever possible.

A teacher having the "maybe you're gay" talk with a kid is a step too much.

Maybe the kid starts the "maybe I'm gay" conversation at which point the teacher says nothing beyond facts about gay and straight people and that both are valid lives to live is as far as it should extend

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

These views are compatible.

I am not sure about where I would put the boundaries, on that, but I am really strongly against giving the parents too much control. My parents were conservative Protestants, and while I would have appreciated being able to talk to a trusted teacher about my sexuality, I would have been afraid to say anything at all if my parents might have found out. Conservative Protestants can be extremely dangerous people.

Yes, there are cases where a young person might want to keep their parents out of all discussion about their sexuality. There are still too many situations where a young person's sexuality might become a cause for domestic violence.

So yes, I am paranoid about the idea of parents being brought unnecessarily into discussions about a young person's sexuality.

A simpler way for a teacher to discuss sexuality, rather than having a "maybe you are gay" talk, would be to discuss the simple reality that if you are gay, you don't "feel gay," and you don't "look gay," but you feel and look the same way you always have. At heart, it's not really something new. Your feelings toward people of your own gender, in your own age group, are just an extension of how you have always felt about them. A gay boy might find that other boys can make them feel strange and a little defensive. This does not mean that those other boys are really trying to hurt them, but it just means that those boys have more power to provoke reactions in them, both good and bad. Realizing you are gay is just forming a better understanding of why you have always had those feelings.

Many parents might object to that conversation, but many parents beat their children with a belt. You wouldn't demand that a teacher beat a student with a belt in order to enforce the parent's dysfunctional concept of "discipline," and you wouldn't expect a teacher to ask for a parent's feedback on whether or not their child should be beaten with a belt.

Teachers have a separate relationship with their students from the relationship between children and their parents, and that is an important boundary. There are truly things that young people can talk about with teachers that they could never bring up with their moms and dads, and this confidentiality is really a very important part of a teacher's job.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Would you consider explaining your position?

I think I've done enough explaining.

A Twitter link is not an explanation. I have an obsessive-compulsive personality, which is a normal chacteristic of the Tourette's syndrome that I am diagnosed with. It is very important for me to avoid any social media that causes even neurotypicals to act like they've got OCD. It is reasonable for me to request accommodation.

 

[Gospel]

A Twitter link is not an explanation. I have an obsessive-compulsive personality, which is a normal chacteristic of the Tourette's syndrome that I am diagnosed with. It is very important for me to avoid any social media that causes even neurotypicals to act like they've got OCD. It is reasonable for me to request accommodation.

I didn't post the Twitter video. Trausti did that to make the argument that a child was coached into a trans identity. My reply was to Trausti to make the counterclaim that it wasn't what was being shown in the video. Instead (if you were to watch it) it was a concerned parent upset about being deliberately left out of the discussion and expressing her anger about the damage they caused to not only her relationship with her child (she actually said she would have been supportive if they would have given her a chance) as well as dealing with the horror of almost losing her child to suicide.

The breakdown in communication we're having here is you refusing to look at the video I responded to as well as attributing Trausti's argument to mine somehow. At least that's what I think.

​

 

[Jarhyn]

@SigmatheZeta @Gospel this is dumb.

@SigmatheZeta it seems @Gospel feels entirely appropriately that the conversation of whether a child is themselves gay or lesbian is a topic to discuss with parents, whenever possible.

A teacher having the "maybe you're gay" talk with a kid is a step too much.

Maybe the kid starts the "maybe I'm gay" conversation at which point the teacher says nothing beyond facts about gay and straight people and that both are valid lives to live is as far as it should extend

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

These views are compatible.

I am not sure about where I would put the boundaries, on that, but I am really strongly against giving the parents too much control. My parents were conservative Protestants, and while I would have appreciated being able to talk to a trusted teacher about my sexuality, I would have been afraid to say anything at all if my parents might have found out. Conservative Protestants can be extremely dangerous people.

Yes, there are cases where a young person might want to keep their parents out of all discussion about their sexuality. There are still too many situations where a young person's sexuality might become a cause for domestic violence.

So yes, I am paranoid about the idea of parents being brought unnecessarily into discussions about a young person's sexuality.

A simpler way for a teacher to discuss sexuality, rather than having a "maybe you are gay" talk, would be to discuss the simple reality that if you are gay, you don't "feel gay," and you don't "look gay," but you feel and look the same way you always have. At heart, it's not really something new. Your feelings toward people of your own gender, in your own age group, are just an extension of how you have always felt about them. A gay boy might find that other boys can make them feel strange and a little defensive. This does not mean that those other boys are really trying to hurt them, but it just means that those boys have more power to provoke reactions in them, both good and bad. Realizing you are gay is just forming a better understanding of why you have always had those feelings.

Many parents might object to that conversation, but many parents beat their children with a belt. You wouldn't demand that a teacher beat a student with a belt in order to enforce the parent's dysfunctional concept of "discipline," and you wouldn't expect a teacher to ask for a parent's feedback on whether or not their child should be beaten with a belt.

Teachers have a separate relationship with their students from the relationship between children and their parents, and that is an important boundary. There are truly things that young people can talk about with teachers that they could never bring up with their moms and dads, and this confidentiality is really a very important part of a teacher's job.

And I'm saying there is a razor's edge in that relationship.

I do not think the parents are Always the right people to have that discussion with, either, and I don't think that either I nor Gospel thinks that parents have any right to withhold knowledge of sexuality and gender and identity from a child.

The razor's edge comes in at the point of "offering suggestions of self".

There is an honest fear of such "installations".

There is a point where, usually (and this I will take on a case by case basis) the teacher will have to discuss what is going on with parents, so long as it does not violate the kid's plainly spoken intent.

At any rate the calculus for all this gets into a really fucked up gauntlet of balancing the needs and wellbeing of kids against the prerogatives of parents.

 

[Gospel]

I don't think that either I nor Gospel thinks that parents have any right to withhold knowledge of sexuality and gender and identity from a child.

FACTS

 

[SigmatheZeta]

A Twitter link is not an explanation. I have an obsessive-compulsive personality, which is a normal chacteristic of the Tourette's syndrome that I am diagnosed with. It is very important for me to avoid any social media that causes even neurotypicals to act like they've got OCD. It is reasonable for me to request accommodation.

I didn't post the Twitter video. Trausti did that to make the argument that a child was coached into a trans identity. My reply was to Trausti to make the counterclaim that it wasn't what was being shown in the video. Instead (if you were to watch it) it was a concerned parent upset about being deliberately left out of the discussion and expressing her anger about the damage they caused to not only her relationship with her child (she actually said she would have been supportive if they would have given her a chance) as well as dealing with the horror of almost losing her child to suicide.

The breakdown in communication we're having here is you refusing to look at the video I responded to as well as attributing Trausti's argument to mine somehow. At least that's what I think.

​

Okay.

Again, it is often necessary for teachers to preserve the confidentiality of their students, even in regard to their own parents. Kids are not always ready to come out to their parents.

 

[Jarhyn]

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

I never made the claim that teachers need parents' permission to teach in fact I've repeatedly said it's their job.

Hence why I made the post: so friends stop talking past one another and realize they aren't at odds

 

[SigmatheZeta]

@Gospel it seems that @SigmatheZeta feels entirely appropriately that parents ought have no leverage over denying teachers from offering impartial and unbiased information about sexuality and sex.

I never made the claim that teachers need parents' permission to teach in fact I've repeatedly said it's their job.

Hence why I made the post: so friends stop talking past one another and realize they aren't at odds

I sort of might be.

Someone cannot possibly understand it if they have never been a gay kid from a conservative evangelical background, but bringing parents into these conversations is not always an option. Teachers might often need to preserve the confidentiality of stidents even from their own parents. This is a part of the reality of being queer. It is not always true that we can trust our own parents, and getting outed to our parents prematurely can put us at risk of domestic violence or derail our careers. Student confidentiality is their right.

 

[Gospel]

Okay.

Again, it is often necessary for teachers to preserve the confidentiality of their students, even in regard to their own parents. Kids are not always ready to come out to their parents.

And that's fine, however, as a parent, I have to say that the child's well-being overrides school confidentiality as their well-being is ultimately our resonsibilty. If there is a capable parent available (like the one in the video) I don't see how things should get to the point where a parent almost loses their child to suicide before they find out.

Not all parents are incapable parents and to treat students of capable parents with the same level of confidentiality you'd treat students with incapable parents is a big mistake. Parents are very important to a student's development so removing them from the picture when it's unnecessary (which seems to be the case in the video) by default lowers the students' chances to succeed whether it's an academic, cognitive, or sexual success.

There comes a point when the well-being of a child is at risk & the school has to either alert a parent or if they find the parent disagreeable get their shitty public programs involved. To unnecessarily keep a wedge between a student and their parent to the detriment of the child's well-being when the school is better off working with the parents is just flat-out criminal IMO.

As for teaching sexuality in school, I'm all for it, as I'm one of those parents who are adamant about my children having agency so I'm not at all concerned about them living life "how I want them to" but rather living a reflective & introspective one.