New "don't say gay" bill in Florida

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Here is a link to the text of the legislation which was also in the op's referenced article.

This phrasing I think is worth some discussion:

3. A school district may not encourage classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in
77 primary grade levels or in a manner that is not age-appropriate
78 or developmentally appropriate for students.

Form is:
A school district may not encourage X in A or in B.

X = classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity
A = primary grade levels
B = a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students

My first issue is the use of these very flexible words that we see in some other legislation such as anti-anti-racist legislation where they used words like "promote, advance, inculcate" which allow someone to cherry-pick a pattern of misconstrued things and then make an inference that an instructor, book, curriculum is doing these things. In this legislation, such flexible word is "encourage." So what does this mean, say, if there are available books or optional books that are inclusive, like say normal reading material but where there are two dads or two moms in a family structure? Proponents of the bill use terms like "gay agenda" in education etc and so they do misconstrue these things. Is education as a whole just supposed to ONLY have straight persons in reading material or maybe have amorphous androgenous parents in children's books so no one can tell their gender identities? Anyway, any book like that that is part of the curriculum could be age-appropriate but if you look at (A) above, it might exclude it based on grade level and an inference it leads to discussion of the book in the classroom after reading it--which it very well might.

Next issue I have is that the Republican understanding of what is "age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students" (B) includes bad sources of information and propaganda, sometimes supported by papers and studies that aren't of the peer-reviewed, respected kind. So beyond primary grade levels, like say high school, their interpretation (i.e. possibly the majority interpretation in Florida since there are so many Republicans) of "age-appropriate" or "developmentally appropriate" might very well be something different than reality.

So it seems this is another draconian bill where it empowers conservatives and will make school districts and teachers fear for their honest lessons and efforts. Of course, we will have to watch what happens as well as these flexible words are tested in cases and as we see how much school districts choose to retreat from risk of any sort in their curricula and lessons.

 

[Gospel]

Here is a link to the text of the legislation which was also in the op's referenced article.

Florida legislation

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Okay.

Again, it is often necessary for teachers to preserve the confidentiality of their students, even in regard to their own parents. Kids are not always ready to come out to their parents.

And that's fine, however, as a parent, I have to say that the child's well-being overrides school confidentiality as their well-being is ultimately our resonsibilty. If there is a capable parent available (like the one in the video) I don't see how things should get to the point where a parent almost loses their child to suicide before they find out.

Not all parents are incapable parents and to treat students of capable parents with the same level of confidentiality you'd treat students with incapable parents is a big mistake. Parents are very important to a student's development so removing them from the picture when it's unnecessary (which seems to be the case in the video) by default lowers the students' chances to succeed whether it's an academic, cognitive, or sexual success.

There comes a point when the well-being of a child is at risk & the school has to either alert a parent or if they find the parent disagreeable get their shitty public programs involved. To unnecessarily keep a wedge between a student and their parent to the detriment of the child's well-being when the school is better off working with the parents is just flat-out criminal IMO.

As for teaching sexuality in school, I'm all for it, as I'm one of those parents who are adamant about my children having agency so I'm not at all concerned about them living life "how I want them to" but rather living a reflective & introspective one.

That cannot always be known.

You cannot be blamed if you do not understand this, but it is commonplace, among conservative evangelicals, to blame the suicides of transgender children on the fact that they are transgender. Their own strategy, to try to save their offspring, is to put them under extreme pressure to identify with their assigned sex at birth, and the more their children cut, or make attempts on their own lives, the more extreme and the more hysterical the pressure becomes. The frustration due to the fact that this does not work often translates into abuse, and when their children finally die as a consequence of this mistake, they never understand themselves as being at fault. If teachers refuse to join them in this misguided strategy or even if the teachers fully cooperate but lack enthusiasm, those sorts of parents will still blame the teachers for the failed outcome. They will still accuse the teachers of influencing their offspring.

Those sorts of parents do not otherwise seem to be incompetent, though. They seem mentally normal. Their dysfunctional beliefs, though, can make them dangerous.

I grew up around those kinds of people, and they can seem deceptively normal to outsiders.

 

[Gospel]

I grew up around those people and am married to one. The parent in the video I replied to gave me no indication that she was upset about her child's sexuality. She made it clear she was pissed off about being left out of the loop up until her child attempted to commit suicide. That's my take, whether you consider her honest or not (even though your refuse to even look at the video) is of none of my concern.

I personally am aware that not all parents are examples of excellence (myself included) however anyone who thinks parents aren't more than half the factor in a child's chances of success (academic, cognitive, or sexual to name a few) is out of their god damned minds.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I grew up around those people and am married to one. The parent in the video I replied to gave me no indication that she was upset about her child's sexuality. She made it clear she was pissed off about being left out of the loop up until her child attempted to commit suicide. That's my take, whether you consider her honest or not (even though your refuse to even look at the video) is of none of my concern.

I personally am aware that not all parents are examples of excellence (myself included) however anyone who thinks parents aren't more than half the factor in a child's chances of success (academic, cognitive, or sexual to name a few) is out of their god damned minds.

I'll leave it at that.

And this gives parents greater capacity for causing harm when they do fail. The world often is complicated.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I do feel a need to raise awareness of how matters stand within conspiracy theory circles, though. They reject mainstream science, and they use a mixture of outdated research, distortion, and confabulation to keep themselves convinced. It is still necessary to safeguard the privacy of young LGBT. Homophobic and transphobic violence is on the rise, and it is starting to look like the 1950's all over again. There is trouble on the horizon, and there will be intense political battles in our future. We must take this seriously.

 

[Gospel]

Primary grade levels in Florida (to my knowledge) are Preschool, and up to 4th grade. I don't see much of an issue with that restriction as sexuality is reasonably expected not to be a subject in school or home up to the age of ten. I also don't see B removing gender identity from the discussion, as it only restricts the manner in which it is taught depending on the age-appropriateness & relation to the student's development. I'm just apprehensive about how age and development appropriateness is determined.

Edit: Sorry didn't mean to reply to Don2

 

[TomC]

And that's fine, however, as a parent, I have to say that the child's well-being overrides school confidentiality as their well-being is ultimately our resonsibilty. If there is a capable parent available (like the one in the video) I don't see how things should get to the point where a parent almost loses their child to suicide before they find out

Here's a huge part of the problem.
You are a concerned and engaged parent, rather like my own. Every kid, especially boys, should have a dad like you. But they don't.
Everyone involved is a human. Wildly disparate people, often with agendas that even they don't recognize. Add the parent/child relationship to the responsibility of a teaching job to the profoundly different rates and ways individual children develop and there just aren't easy answers.

Then add modern media and sociopolitical polarization and partisanship, and it's all a recipe for a disaster. A disaster that will mostly afflict kids, which means a disaster that will continue for years, if not generations.

And frankly,(I didn't watch the video, just heard it described) I seriously question the judgement and fitness to be a parent of anyone who would post such a video on the internet. That's before I get to the honesty question.
How does anyone know that the school didn't call her three times, trying to discuss her child's issues, and she blew them off because she didn't want to be bothered? I know I have relatives inclined to do that. Relatives who will also post stuff on FB and such looking for sympathy because they're always the victim of something or another.

Tom

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Primary grade levels in Florida (to my knowledge) are Preschool, and up to 4th grade. I don't see much of an issue with that restriction as sexuality is reasonably expected not to be a subject in school or home up to the age of ten. I also don't see B removing gender identity from the discussion, as it only restricts the manner in which it is taught depending on the age-appropriateness & relation to the student's development. I'm just apprehensive about how age and development appropriateness is determined.

Edit: Sorry didn't mean to reply to Don2

There is, again, a difference between the subjects of sex and sexuality. The term "sexuality" is really sort of a misnomer, and I consider it to be a little archaic. Young people can understand the concept of same-sex coparents, for instance, even at a very young age. This does not require an explicit discussion of what they might do with each other for intimacy. The idea that some children might have two mothers or fathers is very easy to talk about in an age-appropriate manner.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

To think about a concrete example. Moms for Liberty put together this spreadsheet of imagined issues with books, particularly in the Wit & Wisdom package. There's a book called The Keeping Quilt which is rated independently for 3rd graders. The newest version, not in use in school's yet (or maybe ever), has a gay marriage in it so I have heard which goes to the issue of same-sex co-parents sort of. Moms for Liberty complained about the book, but that version of the book containing real life events wasn't a thing yet. In any case, suppose it is. I am sure you can recall easily about conservatives screaming about a gay agenda*, a Muslim agenda, blah blah blah, right? You know because sharia law and a gay agenda are so consistent, but still such book is age appropriate but conservatives by and large will say it isn't. Other people might also agree, conservative or not. Now when you couple such instances of books that might expose a child to diversity or things that they are being told in the home are not "normal," it can be misconstrued by Rightists as "encouraging classroom discussion about sexual orientation." Or it can be labeled in the (B) section I had listed above claiming it is age inappropriate. You can read some complaints here regarding the book.

*from conservapedia:

• Legalize homosexuality
• Hold "gay pride" parades
• Accept child sex trafficking
• Demand non-discrimination laws
• Insist on homosexuals' adoption of children
• Push the homosexual agenda in schools[6]
• Legalize various alternate forms of partnership and call them "marriage" (i.e. man and man, woman and woman, man and multiple women)
• Demand public funding to deal with increased homosexual-related social problems
• Promote the gender confusion agenda
• Demand to be treated "equally"
• Impose a large-scale loss of free speech
• Ban counseling for kids confused by homosexual issues
• Drag queen story times to indoctrinate children
• Ban scientifically and religiously proven methods of homosexual conversion
• Attack churches
• Encourage abortion

 

[ZiprHead]

Moms for Liberty

A better name would be Moms With Huge Sticks Up Their Asses.

 

[Gospel]

The idea that some children might have two mothers or fathers is very easy to talk about in an age-appropriate manner.

That I agree with.

This is my opinion, I don't see the need to involve schools in the discussion at that stage as teaching same-sex relationships is a lot less nuanced. On another hand, to some people that may find issues with parents who are reluctant to properly (that's subjective) address those questions if they were to arise prior to (example) 12 years old I say, there ain't shit we can do about that because parents have rights and the school system is incapable of not making a bigger mess of things. As long as there aren't clear issues with the child's overall mental health &/or environmental safety there isn't much that should be done. But that's just me.

If anything that's in the hands of Family & friends or the community (if neither of the former is available) to address with the parents or contact officials if abuse is apparent. The school can spot abuse as well.

Now high school students (for example) are a different story because by that time they should have developed a stronger sense of agency and can make up their own minds about what the information means to them & offer their own input to boot. So an appropriately (again subjective) detailed discussion is welcome there.

 

[Gospel]

Moms for Liberty

A better name would be Moms With Huge Sticks Up Their Asses.

Low key, they just might like that.

 

[Gospel]

Oh and for the record the less we have to legislate the better, I'd rather there not be rules and everyone just behave themselves but because we have idiots we need laws, and sometimes those laws are written by idiots. Welcome to Florida.

 

[TomC]

Moms for Liberty

A better name would be Moms With Huge Sticks Up Their Asses.

Low key, they just might like that.

I'm no expert on modern women, I let that shit go over 30 years ago.

But back in the 80s, Moms didn't want that stick up their asses. They had better uses for them. Don't ask how I know this.

Or tell you in graphic detail.
Tom

 

[Toni]

A school's/teacher's job is to educate
A parent's job is to give food & shelter to the little mutha fuckas as well as the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

You assume all the parents are doing that job… (any of those jobs)

2 things I cannot un-see:

- The little 1st grader who asked me if he could read aloud to me (classroom volunteer) to fulfill his assignment because no one at home would listen.
- The outraged parent at my town board meeting screaming to shut down the library because it contained the Twilight Series, and all a family need was One Book, anyway - the Good Book.

Those children are being failed at home. They have questions about themselves and they have bad information about their friends. I am happy with teachers educating on BIOLOGY as well at math.

And does any parent doing their job have anything to fear from the teacher? They talk about homosexulity, you say, “yup it’s out there, we don’t agree with it, but you’re going to hear it, and here’s what our family thinks.” That’s what I did about their pernicious religion, after all.

I want to state, straight up, that I have zero problems with students learning about sex, biology as it pertains to human bodies, including reproduction, sexuality, sexual orientation at school from knowledgeable and well qualified teachers. As most teachers are. Kids learn about all of that stuff at school anyways. It should be taught in a factual manner instead of myth laden playground/bathroom/under the bleachers stuff that all kids inevitably hear.

Just as some parents fail their kids at home, so do some teachers. One example would be when my daughter’s high school biology teacher (advanced biology, no less!!!) told the high schoolers that women could only get pregnant one or two days a month.

The truth is that whatever we want to think, kids hear a lot of information and a lot of misinformation from each other and often even more dubious sources. Teachers are not immune to being misinformed, ignorant or even malevolent. Or just too damned uncomfortable to discuss sex in front of a classroom.

Parents cannot and should not let classrooms be their kids only source of information about sex and sexuality. They do need to know what is being taught at school so they can supplement or even correct information. And they should know that kids talk to each other. That info about birth control you shared will be useful to other kids as well.

Most teachers are decently well informed and most parents are also decently well informed—at least in some areas. But not all are. And a lot are very uncomfortable talking about sex with kids.

 

[Jarhyn]

Moms for Liberty

A better name would be Moms With Huge Sticks Up Their Asses.

They better stay away from my stick! My stick is far too nisse for their asses!

 

[Gospel]

Here's a huge part of the problem.
You are a concerned and engaged parent, rather like my own. Every kid, especially boys, should have a dad like you. But they don't.
Everyone involved is a human. Wildly disparate people, often with agendas that even they don't recognize. Add the parent/child relationship to the responsibility of a teaching job to the profoundly different rates and ways individual children develop and there just aren't easy answers.

That is a fact. I was raised by a single mother who spent most of her days at work and we were basically left to fend for ourselves after my father left to chase his reggae career. I have dysfunctional parents in my family & friends circle. I grew up in a hood where damn there every other house was lacking in the parental department.

The schools are equipped with better tools to address these issues more so now than when I grew up but I still doubt they are prepared for everything,

Schools should avoid tossing decent (not sure if there is such thing as perfect) parents to the wayside just because the tribe considers it a socially acceptable way to handle the issue when dealing with people they don't agree with.

I disagreed with my mother on a lot of things growing up. Specifically on the religious identity front. Looking back things would have been way worse for me if the state stepped in and attempted to assist me with what I considered a hostile environment.

I needed my mother to be an insider in my life more than I needed her to understand me at the cost of her being an outsider. Still happy with our relationship today, those hours at church and Jehovahs witness creeps coming to my house to lecture and guilt trip me into loving something I didn't believe in wasn't all that bad because my mother did a lot of other wonderful shit as a mom that got me through.

I'm not equating religious identity to gender identity so you can put the rocks, tomatoes, and (in SigmathaZeta & Rhea's case) Bazooka
down, I'm saying that not all situations dealing with reluctant to accept gender identity parents are the end of the world for the student/child. I'm also not saying every child today is the same as me when I was a child, or is going through the same thing. Nor am I saying that there aren't situations where the child is better off removed from the parents entirely.

what I am saying is It's intense conflict at home while being hammered with the idea that you're not loved there but we have programs out there to help "people like you" and that, "you're wonderful just the way you are" shit coming from someone I don't believe loves me getting internalized as ___YOU'RE JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE ITS YOUR JOB___.


Things get complicated fast & if schools can work with the parents to keep the child's mental health and environmental safety in an acceptable state the tribe should back off & wait until they have more agency. It's not like the parents can forbid them from going out on a date with their significant other. THEY ARE TOO YOUNG TO DO THAT ANYWAY!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Dangerously, many parents have the misguided belief that homosexuality and transgenderism could not exist if it were not taught, so, from their point-of-view, teaching children a "straights only" version of adult life can lead to the fulfillment of that picture of the world. They think that, by shielding children from knowing that gay people exist, they can make sure that no children at all ever grow up to be gay. The only sense in which this could ever really be true, though, is if LGBT kids are driven either to kill themselves during their youth or find somewhere else to live where they do not feel so unsafe or stay permanently closeted, which leads to them living deeply dysfunctional lives.

An awful lot of people suffer from the problem of confusing the message with the reality. Homosexuality will cease to exist if nobody talks about it. The right seems more vulnerable to such thinking than the left but both sides are guilty.

 

[Jarhyn]

Here's a huge part of the problem.
You are a concerned and engaged parent, rather like my own. Every kid, especially boys, should have a dad like you. But they don't.
Everyone involved is a human. Wildly disparate people, often with agendas that even they don't recognize. Add the parent/child relationship to the responsibility of a teaching job to the profoundly different rates and ways individual children develop and there just aren't easy answers.

That is a fact. I was raised by a single mother who spent most of her days at work and we were basically left to fend for ourselves after my father left to chase his reggae career. I have dysfunctional parents in my family & friends circle. I grew up in a hood where damn there every other house was lacking in the parental department.

The schools are equipped with better tools to address these issues more so now than when I grew up but I still doubt they are prepared for everything,

Schools should avoid tossing decent (not sure if there is such thing as perfect) parents to the wayside just because the tribe considers it a socially acceptable way to handle the issue when dealing with people they don't agree with.

I disagreed with my mother on a lot of things growing up. Specifically on the religious identity front. Looking back things would have been way worse for me if the state stepped in and attempted to assist me with what I considered a hostile environment.

I needed my mother to be an insider in my life more than I needed her to understand me at the cost of her being an outsider. Still happy with our relationship today, those hours at church and Jehovahs witness creeps coming to my house to lecture and guilt trip me into loving something I didn't believe in wasn't all that bad because my mother did a lot of other wonderful shit as a mom that got me through.

I'm not equating religious identity to gender identity so you can put the rocks, tomatoes, and (in SigmathaZeta & Rhea's case) Bazooka
down, I'm saying that not all situations dealing with reluctant to accept gender identity parents are the end of the world for the student/child. I'm also not saying every child today is the same as me when I was a child, or is going through the same thing. Nor am I saying that there aren't situations where the child is better off removed from the parents entirely.

what I am saying is It's intense conflict at home while being hammered with the idea that you're not loved there but we have programs out there to help "people like you" and that, "you're wonderful just the way you are" shit coming from someone I don't believe loves me getting internalized as ___YOU'RE JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE ITS YOUR JOB___.


Things get complicated fast & if schools can work with the parents to keep the child's mental health and environmental safety in an acceptable state the tribe should back off & wait until they have more agency. It's not like the parents can forbid them from going out on a date with their significant other. THEY ARE TOO YOUNG TO DO THAT ANYWAY!

I would offer to any teacher, or anyone adjacent to that struggle:

I get paid for shit, and abused daily by bratty fucking children who think that 12 years of backbiting and social warfare is in any way a sufficient education, and often who think they don't even need that much.

So if you don't think I'm here saying these things because I really want there to be someone here saying these things for your own sake, then I failed you even worse than you think I have.