New low for academia

[Jolly_Penguin]

Allowances for an occasional lateness is how you deal with humans.

With humans, sure. But this isn't what the article in the OP is saying. Its talking about attributing lateness to a particular group. Its talking about prejudice.

 

[untermensche]

Allowances for an occasional lateness is how you deal with humans.

With humans, sure. But this isn't what the article in the OP is saying. Its talking about attributing lateness to a particular group. Its talking about prejudice.

It is just something recognized in some cultures and not recognized in others.

So this is very educational.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Clemson U.’s Diversity Training Says Being Late Is Okay Because Some Cultures Believe Time Is Relative

US academia is getting for crazy by the minute.

I don't understand the issue. Could you tell us what is exactly wrong with understanding that different cultures have different expectations of punctuality and being chill about it? Or are you German?

Because you should adapt to the culture you are in, not attempt to impose yours.

 

[ronburgundy]

Whether a scheduled meeting starts on time directly impacts what if anything gets accomplished. By definition, meetings mean that multiple people are coming together, and thus one person being late means lost time and productivity for every other person that was there on time. And productive people typically have other appointments they must leave for, so the meeting has a finite scheduled finish time.
Thus, a person being 10 minutes late to an hour meeting of 20 people costs a total of 190 minutes of others people's productivity and reduces what can be accomplished by 17% and/or forces some matters to be rushed to completion and thus usually done poorly

Anyone can be late occasionally, but chronic lateness to scheduled meetings is the result of deliberately being a selfish asshole. The only "culture" in which this wouldn't be the case is where most people have very little else to do and thus it really does not matter if they are waiting around for others and there really is no scheduled ending time because they don't need to be anywhere else and can all stay late to complete the task. Since that is not the case for hardly anyone in any University meeting (or most meetings in the modern world) it is almost always selfish to be late and those that don't realize this are culturally ignorant.

As to this particular "training", I would tell the useless administrator responsible that since time is relative and some cultures believe in the afterlife that I will complete the training after I'm dead and that is just as good as doing it now.

What you describe here bends to the US culture of productivity, aka chasing the almighty dollar. What if the accumulation of wealth wasn't the end all be all of your existence (not you specifically)? What if your goal in life was happiness and happiness did not walk hand in hand with wealth?
Universities have students from many countries. Many of these student will go back home after their studies. Should we seek to understand their culture, their appreciation of time and how one should live a happy life? Sounds like a class I'd like to take. I'd rather learn and appreciate their culture than indoctrinate them on the American way, the accumulation of wealth and the endless pursuit of more and more shit.

No, it isn't at all limited to chasing the "almighty dollar". It has just as much relevance for optimizing the time one has for fun, leisure, socializing, and learning interesting things like facts about other cultures. Being late means others are sitting there waiting for you to arrive rather than doing other things and are forced to stay later to accomplish the task rather than leaving to do other things. Those other things can be anything from other work meetings to hanging out with friends and family to taking a class on other cultures.
Your ability to take that that class you find interesting would be hampered by the very inconsiderate behavior you find "interesting". Say you have a work meeting before the class and since its rude to ever expect anyone to be on time for it, no one ever is. But since there are specific tasks to be completed that means you still have to stay late often. So now you miss the first 15 minutes of that class on most weeks. In addition, the teacher of that class shares your disregard for being considerate of others and for time, so they just decide to start the class 15 minutes early most weeks and end 15 minutes early, without regard for the silly little "schedule" published by the college. So now, you are missing the first half of your 1 hour class.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I am curious. What exactly is the reaction here to people from less progressive countries​ that move over and bring misogyny with them due to their culture. Would the left here make excuses fo them and demand cultural sensitivity, or would the liberal value of respect and equality for women win the day?

 

[TSwizzle]

I am curious. What exactly is the reaction here to people from less progressive countries​ that move over and bring misogyny with them due to their culture. Would the left here make excuses fo them and demand cultural sensitivity, or would the liberal value of respect and equality for women win the day?

Get a grip, it's hardly the same thing.

 

[RavenSky]

Clemson U.’s Diversity Training Says Being Late Is Okay Because Some Cultures Believe Time Is Relative

US academia is getting for crazy by the minute.

Of course, one could get that impression from reading that type of propaganda without using any reason. The "training" in question is voluntary and no one is required to adhere to its "teachings". Moreover, if someone is late once to a class, that is not really a big issue in most cases. Professors do not routinely wait to start class and they are not typically expected to postpone starting a class until everyone is seated.

This is just another example of a alt-snowflake over-reaction.

Actually, if the alt-snowflakes would read even their own links, they might avoid looking idiotic in their over-reactions. No one is suggesting that students being late to class is acceptable. A hypothetical scenario was included in an online training course with a choice between three possible responses:

The training presents faculty members with several hypothetical scenarios. In one scenario, a fictional character named Alejandro schedules a 9:00 a.m. meeting for visiting professors and students (one assumes these people are foreign). Some arrive early, others arrive 10 minutes late. What should Alejandro do? Participants are given three options:

- Politely ask the second group to apologize

- Explain "In our country 9:00 AM means 9:00 AM."

- As the meeting organizer, he should recognize cultural differences that may impact the meeting and adjust accordingly.

Given the scenario as presented, and given that the first two possible answers are extremely rude in any culture, yeah... adjust and move on What's the outrage about again?

 

[fromderinside]

Clemson U.’s Diversity Training Says Being Late Is Okay Because Some Cultures Believe Time Is Relative

US academia is getting for crazy by the minute.

They were just trying to relate h'achew seeds who attend football games feel relevant.

 

[ronburgundy]

I am curious. What exactly is the reaction here to people from less progressive countries​ that move over and bring misogyny with them due to their culture. Would the left here make excuses fo them and demand cultural sensitivity, or would the liberal value of respect and equality for women win the day?

Get a grip, it's hardly the same thing.

It doesn't have to be the same thing, in fact analogies never are.

It is analogous because in both instances there is a behavior that most people in modern society deem negative because it negatively impacts others for selfish reasons. The degree of that impact is different, but that is largely irrelevant to the argument that we should ignore what is considered proper ways to treat other people just because someone was raised in a culture where it is acceptable to treat others in ways modern civil society deemed improper and that have real objective negative impacts on others.

Also, although on a societal scale misogyny might have more negative impact than chronic lateness to schedule events/meetings, that is not true for the impact of specific instances of the behavior. A person being 20 minutes late to a meeting can easily and typically would have far more direct and tangible harm on many others than a person making a sexist joke at a party. And since it is the consequence of the person's own actions that matter for ethics, there are definitely acts of being avoidably late that should be viewed as greater ethical violations than plenty of minor acts of "misogyny" that some people defending lateness as "cultural" would make a big deal about.

 

[TSwizzle]

Get a grip, it's hardly the same thing.

It doesn't have to be the same thing, in fact analogies never are.

It's not even close and is just a dumb comparison and pretty pointless.

It is analogous because in both instances there is a behavior that most people in modern society deem negative because it negatively impacts others for selfish reasons.

They are completely different and separate issues. And if you want to disappear down that rabbit hole, have at it. Cheers.

 

[Malintent]

Will they expect their employers to be tolerant of their tardiness because of "culture"?

Most professionals don't have set hours and a supervisor greeting them at the door.

most people are not professionals.

 

[Malintent]

They are telling me that I should expect somebody to be tardy because they are immigrants from another culture? I should expect less of their punctuality and hold them to a lower standard? They are saying it is "colonialist" for me to tell them that I expect them to be there when they said that they would?

Is this not something you would expect to hear from the extreme right wing? This is bizarre.

I only pay Indian workers 85 cents an hour. I don't want to offend their culture in their native land by paying them a living wage that provides opportunity for verticle growth. keep them in their cast, "just like mother India does", I always say.

 

[beero1000]

Of course, one could get that impression from reading that type of propaganda without using any reason. The "training" in question is voluntary and no one is required to adhere to its "teachings". Moreover, if someone is late once to a class, that is not really a big issue in most cases. Professors do not routinely wait to start class and they are not typically expected to postpone starting a class until everyone is seated.

This is just another example of a alt-snowflake over-reaction.

Actually, if the alt-snowflakes would read even their own links, they might avoid looking idiotic in their over-reactions. No one is suggesting that students being late to class is acceptable. A hypothetical scenario was included in an online training course with a choice between three possible responses:

The training presents faculty members with several hypothetical scenarios. In one scenario, a fictional character named Alejandro schedules a 9:00 a.m. meeting for visiting professors and students (one assumes these people are foreign). Some arrive early, others arrive 10 minutes late. What should Alejandro do? Participants are given three options:

- Politely ask the second group to apologize

- Explain "In our country 9:00 AM means 9:00 AM."

- As the meeting organizer, he should recognize cultural differences that may impact the meeting and adjust accordingly.

Given the scenario as presented, and given that the first two possible answers are extremely rude in any culture, yeah... adjust and move on What's the outrage about again?

Seriously. The headline had barely anything to do with the content. Fake news.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

For academic classes, I think students ought to be taught what the professor's expectations are; that the professor's expectations ought to be reasonable based on travel times to class and students' other responsibilities; and that professors ought to consider different perspectives of what it means to be late during the beginning of the academic term, giving students a chance to adjust to possibly new expectations.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Many of you are missing the point of schedules in work. Maybe it is because you are used to worker bee culture as opposed to corporate culture.

In corporate culture, when you show up late for a meeting, it shows how busy and therefore how HIGH-LEVEL you are.

You also should use that tardiness to talk about how important you are as in "Sorry, I'm late. I had a meeting with <NAME DROP> to discuss the <PROJECT NAME DROP> project. Boy, I've been so busy in meetings today I can't get anything else done."

You can work your way up the ladder by becoming a meeting attender and showing up late.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Many of you are missing the point of schedules in work. Maybe it is because you are used to worker bee culture as opposed to corporate culture.

In corporate culture, when you show up late for a meeting, it shows how busy and therefore how HIGH-LEVEL you are.

You also should use that tardiness to talk about how important you are as in "Sorry, I'm late. I had a meeting with <NAME DROP> to discuss the <PROJECT NAME DROP> project. Boy, I've been so busy in meetings today I can't get anything else done."

You can work your way up the ladder by becoming a meeting attender and showing up late.

You speak the truth.

- - - Updated - - -

Most professionals don't have set hours and a supervisor greeting them at the door.

most people are not professionals.

Most people attending college plan to become professionals.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I am curious. What exactly is the reaction here to people from less progressive countries​ that move over and bring misogyny with them due to their culture. Would the left here make excuses fo them and demand cultural sensitivity, or would the liberal value of respect and equality for women win the day?

Get a grip, it's hardly the same thing.

Didn't say it was, and that isn't an answer. I admit it is a little off topic so I'll start a separate thread: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...ivity-to-Excuse-Behaviour&p=408215#post408215

 

[fromderinside]

For academic classes, I think students ought to be taught what the professor's expectations are; that the professor's expectations ought to be reasonable based on travel times to class and students' other responsibilities; and that professors ought to consider different perspectives of what it means to be late during the beginning of the academic term, giving students a chance to adjust to possibly new expectations.

I'm not trying for a derail here, but, it wouldn't change the importance of the thread if it did.

My major prof taught a lot of premed courses. He had the habit of starting to recite his lecture as he rode from his home to work each day. So when he arrived he was about 20 minutes into his lecture. He was also about ten minutes late (fifteen minute rule applied at our school) so no student, one might say was ever on time for his class. Generally, after some prodding class members would get him to fill in the missing pieces if the lecture fulfilled so part of their prospectus. Fun times all around.

My memories come from teaching in those classes where papers and books were to be dropped, erasers and chock flung, and doors slammed. Since my 'lectures' were usually demonstrations and 'work together' things I didn't have much problem keeping student attentions or controlling times of arrival. Although there's nothing like demonstrating the effects of green lasers on pilots when the class material was a bit slow.

Getting into a snit about class attendance is really just a bigot's way of demanding subservience and control.

 

[ronburgundy]

For academic classes, I think students ought to be taught what the professor's expectations are; that the professor's expectations ought to be reasonable based on travel times to class and students' other responsibilities; and that professors ought to consider different perspectives of what it means to be late during the beginning of the academic term, giving students a chance to adjust to possibly new expectations.

I think any student so ignorant and stupid that they don't realize the standard expectation on a US college campus is to be to class on time shouldn't be in college in the first place. Even people from other cultures who cannot realize this by the first day are idiots. They should be to class on time unless they otherwise get permission not to be and should not register for any course they cannot get to on time, unless they clear it with the prof before hand. Even most young children would have enough sense to realize that.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

For academic classes, I think students ought to be taught what the professor's expectations are; that the professor's expectations ought to be reasonable based on travel times to class and students' other responsibilities; and that professors ought to consider different perspectives of what it means to be late during the beginning of the academic term, giving students a chance to adjust to possibly new expectations.

I think any student so ignorant and stupid that they don't realize the standard expectation on a US college campus is to be to class on time shouldn't be in college in the first place. Even people from other cultures who cannot realize this by the first day are idiots. They should be to class on time unless they otherwise get permission not to be and should not register for any course they cannot get to on time, unless they clear it with the prof before hand. Even most young children would have enough sense to realize that.

If you real the link from the OP, it isn't just about them not knowing what's expected. That'd be far more excusable. Its more about their "culture" and what they are accustomed to and grew up in, and these people are suggesting it is culturally insensitive, or even "colonialism" to impose these expectations on them.