• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

No gummy bears for you!

There's no assumption there. It's a fact. Some people like pork and some people like it better than other non-pork items.

It's really elementary, Toni. I'd say it's difficult to believe you can't understand it, but you've shown you are willing to believe many strange things in defence of the religious.

Anoushka likes pork. In fact, it's her favourite meat. She loves it. She likes beef and chicken too, only not quite as much. Bella doesn't want to be served pork because she had back-to-back VHS screenings of Babe and Charlotte's Web.

Because of this, the meat options are restricted for both children to beef and chicken only. Anoushka has paid a price for Bella's aversion to pork. You can argue the price is worth it, but please don't have the audacity to say Anoushka paid no price at all.



Irrelevant. A price is paid, and you simply cannot acknowledge it.

Your only real objection is that you perceive the pork ban to be religiously motivated

The reason given for the ban was specifically to cater to the children of Muslim parents. I don't know what else you could call it.

although you yourself point out that the pork ban did not bring all foods served into the realm of halal.

Yes. In fact, I think I've made it quite clear that the policy to ban pork to appease the Muslim parents of two children is an absurd half-measure and the formulators of the policy might be the full six pack of beer but they lack the little plastic thing to hold it all together.

In fact, the pork ban was a marketing ploy to make the day care more attractive to Muslim parents.

There is no evidence of that.

Of course, Muslims practice varying degrees of adherence to halal just as Jews keep varying degrees of kosher including no kosher at all. Not all Muslims follow dietary restrictions.

I know. I work with Muslims.

If actual harm were being done to any child in the program, I would agree that it was wrong to institute the ban. But pork is not the only option for protein at lunch, is not universally beloved by all children,

Irrelevant. It doesn't have to be universally beloved to mean that removing it imposes a cost.

is often more expensive than other protein sources

Yeah, that's both bullshit and also irrelevant. If they reduced the pork options on the menu because of skyrocketing pork prices, that would be a reasonable reason to do so. But that isn't why they proposed doing it.

and often contains much more sodium, fat and preservatives

Irrelevant and bullshit, because the salty, fatty, preservative-heavy pork doesn't need to be on the menu, and taking those forms of pork off the menu for nutritional reasons is not the same as taking all pork off the menu to adhere to the religious strictures of the parents of two of the children.

than other protein options, making it often far less healthy.

Irrelevant.

Your opinion is rooted in anti-Muslim bigotry and anti-religious bigotry rather than the actual welfare of the children who might potentially be affected.

The fact that children pay a cost when a culturally important foodstuff that many of them are bound to have liked is banned is not a fact dreamed up in anti-Muslim bigotry. It's a brute fact about the world.

You clearly demonstrate that you don't care about the welfare of the children who liked pork, because you imagine for yourself that they pay no cost when a religious stricture is put on them.

A cost is not the same thing as a harm. Not giving a 4 year old their first choice of food likely means not giving them sweets which isn’t a harm but a good thing to do, at least until the nutritional portions of their meal had been consumed.

Not offering the children any acceptable nutrition and protein would actually be a harm.

Announcing to the class that they could no longer have (whatever the class favorite was) because Adolph’s mom didn’t approve would be a harm and a lie. The favorite food would be denied because the staff had agreed to the demands of Adolph’s mother. They should take responsibility.


In this case, the Muslim parents weren’t consulted and made no demands or even requests that pork not be given to the class. The pork ban idea originated with school staff.
 
No, I'm quite sure three year olds can be bullies. What I was trying to illustrate was that it seems unlikely that three year olds can simultaneously be oblivious to what it is they are being served and bully other children for refusing pork (which they somehow recognise as do the other children).
I realize you are desperate to support your badly worded and poorly reasoned arguments, but why are you injecting simultaneity into anything. If bullying occurred it was in the past, the absence of pork is in the present and future.


Given the evidence of how they went about formulating this policy, and given there is no evidence they consulted the parents of the children that were ostensibly meant to benefit, and given they obviously did not anticipate such enormous pushback from their clients, and given they walked back the policy on the same day it was announced, no, I do not think they had a good grasp on what the children or the parents wanted.
Never said they did. I said they would have more insight into the needs and wants of the children.

You've made all kinds of inferences and indulged in all kinds of unevidenced hypotheticals and what-ifs, and suddenly I'm the one persisting in it? Oy gevalt.
You appear to not understand the purpose of hypotheticals which is to flesh out someone's poorly thought or explained position. BTW, there is no "sudden" here - your posts are consistently filled with conflations of your conclusions and delusions with fact. Hell, there are at least 4 in your latest response to me and a couple in the previous one.

I'm talking about dietary restrictions beyond pork to get some people to recognise that restricting food is a disbenefit.
Are people here denying that imposing dietary restrictions beyond pork is a disbenefit? I know I have never made such a claim.
I want the apologists here to recognise that a price is paid by a large majority of other children to accommodate the children whose parents have a dietary preference.
I think the rational people in this thread think
1) the price is minsicule, and
2) it is not worth the hysterical "Sharia is coming" Muslimphobes, and
3) it is not worth the mental gymnastics of the "Don't Tread on My Freedom (to eat pork)" flag wavers.
 
I realize you are desperate to support your badly worded and poorly reasoned arguments, but why are you injecting simultaneity into anything. If bullying occurred it was in the past, the absence of pork is in the present and future.

Please learn to reason. The children can't simultaneously have bullied children for not eating pork when they don't even recognise what pork is.


Are people here denying that imposing dietary restrictions beyond pork is a disbenefit? I know I have never made such a claim.

Good. Then we agree that the children are paying a cost for someone else's benefit.

1) the price is minsicule,

That has not been established. You've decided it's miniscule. That you are convinced it is doesn't mean everyone is going to take your word that it really is.
 
In this case, the Muslim parents weren’t consulted and made no demands or even requests that pork not be given to the class. The pork ban idea originated with school staff.

Non. There's no evidence that the Muslim parents were consulted,

(paging laughing dog so he can correct Toni about the consultation - laughing dog?)

and I think they probably were not. If they were not consulted, that makes this policy significantly worse, for reasons I've outlined already.
 
However, this is a private business, one amongst many similar options.
Not exactly. It seems to be registered as a non-profit and they almost certainly receive funding from the city. Also, I do not know how many daycare options there are in that section of Leipzig, but you can't just assume there are "many similar options".

You want your kids to eat pork, pick another day care. You want to eat pork, don't go to the halal place ~5 miles from here. Market segmentation isn't evil. We also have a few groceries around here with kosher meat sections and a few with some shelves of Jewish food. (Strangely, I have seen an occasional sign in there that says not everything is kosher.)

Yes, a kosher section. Jews don't go to Publix and demand anything non-kosher be removed. Neither does Publix management self-censor their offerings preemptively just in case.

The halal place I'm aware of is a butcher shop, not a supermarket--there's no meat that doesn't have a halal requirement.
 
In this case, the Muslim parents weren’t consulted and made no demands or even requests that pork not be given to the class. The pork ban idea originated with school staff.

Non. There's no evidence that the Muslim parents were consulted,

(paging laughing dog so he can correct Toni about the consultation - laughing dog?)

and I think they probably were not. If they were not consulted, that makes this policy significantly worse, for reasons I've outlined already.

The ban was instituted (but not carried out) because the staff wanted to be considerate of its Muslim students.

My kids were occasionally in class with someone with a severe peanut allergy. Families were requested not to send peanut butter or peanut products FOR THEIR OWN KIDS LUNCHES out of consideration for and concern for the allergic child.

My kids loved peanut butter.

They made no protest or even acknowledged that the composition of a lunch or snack I sent with them had changed in any way. There was some mumbling from a parent the first time it came up but I never heard a word from any of the kids and certainly not my own.

It really does seem to be the sort of thing (banning a certain substance from a school for whatever reason) that gets adult and parental panties all in a twist but doesn't phase the kids at all.
 
Please learn to reason. The children can't simultaneously have bullied children for not eating pork when they don't even recognise what pork is.
I did not claim anyone or children could not recognize pork. I said it wound not matter to them. This is not the first mischaracterization in this thread you have made. You seem to have a problem with actually comprehending what others write in this thread.
Good. Then we agree that the children are paying a cost for someone else's benefit.
And we agree you are spewing mischaracterizations of other people's positions.

That has not been established. You've decided it's miniscule. That you are convinced it is doesn't mean everyone is going to take your word that it really is.
I am not the only one who has implicitly decided it is either miniscule or less than the benefit from the policy. But it has not been established. I doubt it will be established to anyone's satisfaction.
 
Back
Top Bottom