Non-believers - Ever prayed really hard for God to reveal himself?

[Keith&Co.]

Oh! And i take you quite seriously.
Which is not to say i take Pascal's Wager or argument by popularity seriously. Or any of the gods. Bible fanfiction, yes, but not Koran fanfiction.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Sure I prayed, and searched. The only one that really knows how hard is me, but I couldn't tell you how many times I've been told by a Christian that I either never truly believed, or I wasn't seeking hard enough. The goalposts are moved so that one can never score. The bible says if we look, we will find. Another empty promise made by the book.

How incredibly fortunate for all these Christians to be be born in the geographic area where the predominate religion just so happens to be the right one. How incredibly unlucky for all those poor bastards that are not. For some strange reason they all feel an equal conviction of the spirit that their religion is the right one. They say that they have seen true miracles and they know their god was responsible. They have the AUDACITY to pick unique characteristics of their own religion that is completely arbitrary and then for some reason imply that their religion is the right one because their religion possesses that characteristic. Just as you are doing with the extremes of heaven and hell excreationist. Having the ultimate carrot and stick is not an explanation of why something is true, my friend. It's only a non-sequitur. Think about this for a second. I could just as easily say that we know Jainism is the only true religion, because it is the world's most passive religion. Having the best heaven and the worst hell simply has NO bearing on whether Christianity is true.

 

[excreationist]

Even when no-one believed in it, there was evidence that germ theory was true. As far as the idea that the Christian God will eternally punish unbelievers goes, there is a lot of Biblical support. (that's a separate issue to whether to Bible is factually true)

But is there equally strong evidence that if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Poseidon existed they'd also punish unbelievers eternally?

I'm serious. Where is the evidence? Like in the case of germ theory, even if no-one believed it, there still should be evidence.

Are there any scrolls or something that hint that maybe unbelievers of the FSM will be eternally punished?

 

[excreationist]

So what? 1 person, 100,000,000 person? The difference does not change what is and isn't true.

Let's say they're equally well educated.... do you trust what mainstream educated people say compared to lone believers in a theory (that aren't geniuses)? Most educated people believe in evolution. A minority believe that aliens directed evolution, etc. Do you generally go along with what mainstream science says or do you investigate everything yourself? I mean have you investigated Einstein's theories yourself and quantum physics, etc? Have you carefully checked out what people who have a different view think (that are considered "nuts")? That is similar to you saying I'm supposed to investigate the claims of all of the other religions first. It is also similar to my limited knowledge of Hades. I'm sure you also have a limited knowledge of some of the science or history that you believe.

 

[excreationist]

....The bible says if we look, we will find.....

Jeremiah:29:13 - "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-29.htm
"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul."

See also
http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/10.htm
http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/22.htm

So there are verses that say that not all seekers will find God.

BTW did you kneel on the ground and pour out your heart, etc?

Just as you are doing with the extremes of heaven and hell excreationist. Having the ultimate carrot and stick is not an explanation of why something is true, my friend.

I'm saying that it should be taken into account - just like some rules about physical safety are important even though they are unlikely to needed by a particular person. (e.g. wearing seatbelts if there was no law about it)

It's only a non-sequitur. Think about this for a second. I could just as easily say that we know Jainism is the only true religion, because it is the world's most passive religion. Having the best heaven and the worst hell simply has NO bearing on whether Christianity is true.

It makes sense it should be investigated to some extent though.

 

[excreationist]

....Again, not my job.
But if you're going to claim that only Christ can save me from eternal pain, then you need to show that no one else has that threat.....

I think that's like me saying that there is only one Queen Elizabeth in the world. For you to disprove that you just need to find one example where there is a duplicate of the Queen somewhere else.... but for me to prove my statement I need to simultaneous check every inch of the earth.... if it wasn't simultaneously when I was checking Australia the duplicate could have moved to Africa and then back to Australia while I was checking Africa...

 

[excreationist]

"So you want me to research all of the religions"

I don't want you to do anything, ExC. You're beginning to make things up. Well, yes. There are people who spend years studying theology in a comparative way. People who actually do know how many religions threaten eternal suffering, or oblivion, or the afterlife along the Mormon model, and so on.

Well it is far quicker for you to just educate me about that rather than me trying to find this information for myself. And oblivion is irrelevant compared to the threat of eternal suffering.

You're not one of them, you're not in a position to make the claims you're making.

How can you be sure that I'm incorrect in my assertion that only Christianity threatens eternal punishment for unbelievers?

"but you can't just answer simple questions?"

Why should i? IF you want to be able to claim that your god is the hoariest, meanest, least forgiving bastard, then you need to do the heavy lifting to make your claims valid.

That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world. If someone disagrees, it should be up to them to point out a person that is taller - the person who made the original claim shouldn't be forced to prove that every single person - all 7 billion - is not taller.

 

[jonJ]

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?

Yep, you've nailed it. Hinduism is definitely true, because it has way more than 100,000,000 believers. Of course, so does Islam, so that must be true too. And Buddhism, and Marxism, and Christianity. Only trouble is, they all contradict each other, so all those believers cancel each other out. Bummer!

That's why it's better to believe something which is supported by evidence. That way, when someone disagrees with you, you can show them why they're wrong.

 

[excreationist]

Yep, you've nailed it. Hinduism is definitely true,

I said "which belief seems more likely to be true" - not which is definitely true.

because it has way more than 100,000,000 believers. Of course, so does Islam, so that must be true too. And Buddhism, and Marxism, and Christianity. Only trouble is, they all contradict each other, so all those believers cancel each other out. Bummer!

I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions.

That's why it's better to believe something which is supported by evidence. That way, when someone disagrees with you, you can show them why they're wrong.

Well I'd say that the thing I'm talking about that has no believers (that the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if He exists, will eternally punish all nonbelievers) has no evidence. The opposing thing is that the Christian God, if He exists, would eternally punish nonbelievers. That is supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching. The focus is on the Flying Spaghetti Monster and eternal punishment and whether this seems theologically sound.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But is there equally strong evidence that if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Poseidon existed they'd also punish unbelievers eternally?

Wrong question.
Someone else brought up Poseidon as one example.
I don't recall who brought up the Flying Pasta Beast.
You're claiming one religion out of the thousands is the only one with consequences worth worrying about.

To make this argument work, you need to be able to show that Hell or worse is not threatened by any of:

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Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth, Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros, Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-ña, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirapé , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga'an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha'kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He'mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap'a, i'noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamná, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana'ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K'in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko'lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya'I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa'we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani'to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakawé, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil'slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikváhahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta'xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume', Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To'nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul 'Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Udó , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz, Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir ,Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua'i, 'Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka', Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, 'Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku'ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka'a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta'aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan, Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachué, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap'a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimbó, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Topétine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume Topana

I'm serious.

So am I. Your argument depends on being able to identify and dismiss every one of the gods above, most of the natural forces given faces, some of the more judgmental First Men, and the various demigods that stand as intercessors between us and the judges.

You're not anywhere near capable of supporting this argument, are you?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Let's say they're equally well educated....

Okay. "They're equally well educated."

do you trust what mainstream educated people say compared to lone believers in a theory

Are you just insistent on not getting the point?

Most educated people believe in evolution.

Most educated people accept evolutionary theory, as they have some experience with the evidence that supports the ToE, or with the general scientific process which has produced the ToE as one of the best supported scientific theories to date.
It's about the support FOR the theory, not the number of people or the number of experts that accept it.

That is similar to you saying I'm supposed to investigate the claims of all of the other religions first.

No, it's not.
I'm saying you cannot claim that one religion is the most important, or the most to be feared, without being able to actually compare other religions to yours.

It is also similar to my limited knowledge of Hades. I'm sure you also have a limited knowledge of some of the science or history that you believe.

But i don't 'believe' science. If new evidence forces scientists to change the age of the Universe by a triillion years or the age of the Earth by two billion years, and the theories that explain the differences withstand scrutiny then that's the result of the scientific method. Not a new belief.... I still trust the process, though new results have been offered. Nothing of my 'beliefs' has changed.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think that's like me saying that there is only one Queen Elizabeth in the world. For you to disprove that you just need to find one example where there is a duplicate of the Queen somewhere else....

That would be one way.
Or, it is sufficient for me to show that you never, ever researched how many monarchies there are, or the names of even one other monarch, to establish that your claim is not worth the paper it's not printed on.

but for me to prove my statement I need to simultaneous check every inch of the earth....

That's kind of a stupid way to count the number of QE's in the world... But if you prefer brute force, have at it.

if it wasn't simultaneously when I was checking Australia the duplicate could have moved to Africa and then back to Australia while I was checking Africa...

Or, you could count monarchies and determine the names of their monarchs, and possible heirs, for a given time, so that your claim would be believable and possible to support.

Look, it's not like i've decided to inflict some horrible burden upon you.
YOU'RE making a claim.
YOU'RE the one stuck with either supporting it or looking like a fool because you can't support it and want to blame others for scrutinizing your claim.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well it is far quicker for you to just educate me about that rather than me trying to find this information for myself. And oblivion is irrelevant compared to the threat of eternal suffering.

But you're missing the point. Even if you establish that Poseidon isn't that much of a threat, what about the other 3000 religious traditions out there? Do i have to bring them up one at a time as objections, THEN teach you the answer to the question you should have asked before making your claim?

How can you be sure that I'm incorrect in my assertion that only Christianity threatens eternal punishment for unbelievers?

I didn't say you are. I asked how you can be sure that you're correct, when you obviously haven't looked closely at every other religion. Or any other, apparently.

"but you can't just answer simple questions?"

They're not just 'simple questions,' they're clear signs you're unprepared for the claims you've made.

That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world. If someone disagrees,

Disagree? You mean, when you say 'tallest living person' and someone in the crowd asks, "How do you know for sure?" you don't have to explain? The burden of proof is on the person asking the simple question?
How handy for you.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Even when no-one believed in it, there was evidence that germ theory was true. As far as the idea that the Christian God will eternally punish unbelievers goes, there is a lot of Biblical support. (that's a separate issue to whether to Bible is factually true)

I'm just curious. You say that the Christian God will punish unbelievers, so it's best to pray from time to time, just in case. Why, however, would that matter? If you don't actually believe in him or follow him, but just offer up a prayer every now and again in order to cover your ass, what makes you think that he would judge you any differently than someone who just plain didn't believe and didn't bother with him at all?

 

[Keith&Co.]

That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world.

Let's go with that for a minute.

You add an exhibit to your circus, the world's Tallest Living Man.
You travel to Salt Lake City, where they accept this claim without quibble.
You travel with the same acts to St. Louis. In St. Louis, you claim that he is the World's Tallest Living Man.
A reporter trying to make sure his story is accurate asks you how you know this to be true.
You say, "Well, five hundred thousand people in Salt Lake City and the surrounding towns believe he's the World's Tallest Living Man, so it's probably a good bet, huh? Half a million Mormons, they're probably right."

All i asked was how much effort you put into making sure Poseidon posed no threat before you dismissed him as a threat.
You had zip bupkes fuck-all to support your claim. Except that a lot of people seem to accept your argument...

 

[excreationist]

Wrong question.
Someone else brought up Poseidon as one example.
I don't recall who brought up the Flying Pasta Beast.
You're claiming one religion out of the thousands is the only one with consequences worth worrying about.

To make this argument work, you need to be able to show that Hell or worse is not threatened by any of:

Going back to what we were talking about:

"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

We were talking about Poseidon vs the Christian God. I want to discuss that first. You were dismissing my argument due to "argument from popularity".

BTW you seem to be about the only one on this board (I think) and the other two boards I posted this on who openly thinks I'm wrong about the Christian God's punishment for unbelief being the only example of that kind amongst the other religions.

Let's say I made the statement that cheetahs are the fastest animal. It is according to a lot of sources. For me to state that as a fact do I need to research every other animal and show to you that every other animal is not as fast or faster than a cheetah - I think that is a good analogy to what you're saying.

 

[jonJ]

I said "which belief seems more likely to be true" - not which is definitely true.

So what extra probability is given to a belief by the addition of one extra believer? 1%? .001%? .0000001%? Let's get some actual figures here.

I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions.

Well, there are millions more believers in Hinduism than Buddhism, so does that make Hinduism true and Buddhism false? Or is Hinduism just more true?
But wait -- there are millions more believers in Islam than Hinduism, so does that make Islam more true than Hinduism?
Oh, and there are millions more atheists in China than Moslems worldwide, so I guess atheism is true after all, right?

Anyway, how do you feel about the proposition that women are less intelligent than men? You do realise that millions more people around the world believe that to be true than false? What about the proposition that gays should be killed? I'm pretty sure you'd still get a healthy majority voting for that one. If you evaluate the truth of something by the number of people who believe in it, you're not only going to end up believing some pretty weird and nasty things, you're also going to have to keep changing what you believe as people change their minds, and old ones die while new ones come along.

Well I'd say that the thing I'm talking about that has no believers (that the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if He exists, will eternally punish all nonbelievers) has no evidence. The opposing thing is that the Christian God, if He exists, would eternally punish nonbelievers. That is supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching. The focus is on the Flying Spaghetti Monster and eternal punishment and whether this seems theologically sound.

And what does being 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching' have to do with being true? Can you, in fact, cite anything 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and teaching' which is generally accepted to be true by people worldwide? Or anything 'theologically sound' that most people actually believe?

 

[excreationist]

So what extra probability is given to a belief by the addition of one extra believer? 1%? .001%? .0000001%? Let's get some actual figures here.

I'm talking about which is more probable e.g. one would be more than 50%, the other less than 50%.

Well, there are millions more believers in Hinduism than Buddhism, so does that make Hinduism true and Buddhism false? Or is Hinduism just more true?
But wait -- there are millions more believers in Islam than Hinduism, so does that make Islam more true than Hinduism?
Oh, and there are millions more atheists in China than Moslems worldwide, so I guess atheism is true after all, right?

Like I said, "I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions." You're going off topic and I don't want to discuss things that are irrelevant to the topic like that.

Anyway, how do you feel about the proposition that women are less intelligent than men? You do realise that millions more people around the world believe that to be true than false? What about the proposition that gays should be killed? I'm pretty sure you'd still get a healthy majority voting for that one. If you evaluate the truth of something by the number of people who believe in it, you're not only going to end up believing some pretty weird and nasty things, you're also going to have to keep changing what you believe as people change their minds, and old ones die while new ones come along.

Like I said, "I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions."

And what does being 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching' have to do with being true?

Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence and I think this outweighs the evidence that Poseidon or the FSM would punish all nonbelievers eternally. Or do you disagree?

Can you, in fact, cite anything 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and teaching' which is generally accepted to be true by people worldwide?

Well it is generally accepted that according to Christian theology, if Christianity is true, believers go to heaven. (it is less accepted that non-believers go to hell though still widely believed)

Or anything 'theologically sound' that most people actually believe?

Well there are about 2.3 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims.... that's 3.9 billion out of 7 billion - I suspect most people believe in monotheism or Heaven or that the universe was created by a god. If it isn't most people it is close to half of people.

 

[excreationist]

I'm just curious. You say that the Christian God will punish unbelievers, so it's best to pray from time to time, just in case. Why, however, would that matter? If you don't actually believe in him or follow him, but just offer up a prayer every now and again in order to cover your ass, what makes you think that he would judge you any differently than someone who just plain didn't believe and didn't bother with him at all?

If you seeked God and found him then you'd have a genuine belief in Him and could be saved. BTW I haven't tried very hard to seek God since I've been a non-believer.

 

[excreationist]

But you're missing the point. Even if you establish that Poseidon isn't that much of a threat, what about the other 3000 religious traditions out there? Do i have to bring them up one at a time as objections, THEN teach you the answer to the question you should have asked before making your claim?

If you bring them up one at the time as objections you've got to explain why it is an objection - you haven't done this with Poseidon - you haven't shown he is a threat. You've just demanded me to prove that he isn't a threat. It's like the cheetah example. Let's say you said "what about foxes?" and then I dismissed that and you complained that I didn't even do any research on foxes. Then you listed 3000 other animals and demanded that I show that each and every one is not as fast as a cheetah. It is easier if you just showed some evidence that a particular animal is faster than a cheetah rather than me having to show that their land speed is less than a cheetah's. You might also say I'm using the "argument from authority" or "argument from popularity" fallacies if I referred to Wikipedia.

....I asked how you can be sure that you're correct, when you obviously haven't looked closely at every other religion.

Well I haven't looked closely at every other animal.... though I'm not completely sure that cheetahs are the fastest animal - but there is a good chance they are or at least it is a reasonable belief.

Disagree? You mean, when you say 'tallest living person' and someone in the crowd asks, "How do you know for sure?" you don't have to explain? The burden of proof is on the person asking the simple question?
How handy for you.

Ok what about cheetahs though. Just because I don't know something for sure it doesn't mean I can't have a provisional belief. Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?