• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Non-believers - Ever prayed really hard for God to reveal himself?

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
WHERE - anywhere is there any evidence that a lack of belief in Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti Monster results in a consequence that is any way comparable to eternal extreme punishment?
I asked before what you've done to investigate the possible consequences of the religions you dismiss as not being terribly important. The clear fact is: damn close to nothing at all.

So you can't really ask ME to do your homework in the same thread you're trying to tell me how the only consequences that matter are those of your faith.
The fact that you're not aware of the fully range of consequences has little or nothing to do with an objective assessment of the consequences.
Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?
Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!
Maybe I'd still get reincarnated into something pleasant.
How do you figure that? Based on any understanding of how the cycles work?
On the other hand apparently they have no hell so if I'm trying to avoid the possibility of hell I don't need to worry about the possibility that Hinduism is true.
I'm kind of amazed that your sales pitch for your religion is based on the idea that Jesus is the god i most need to fear.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
The difference, ExC, is that you're supremely unqualified to say things like "BTW there aren't many consequences about whether you are correct in your belief about whether Poseidon exists or not."
Ok since I'm apparently "supremely unqualified" to talk about Poseidon, what about you? Are you qualified? If so, why is my statement that "there aren't many consequences" incorrect? Please demonstrate why there are in fact *many consequences* about beliefs in Poseidon. BTW do you accept that there currently aren't many believers in Poseidon? If the existence of Poseidon matters then why aren't many people worried about the consequences?

....Or how your Hell is worse than anyone else's view of the afterlife.
See this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzynfCuJRBY

What is worse that being "pain itself" for an eternity? Please let me know. And if there is something worse, can you show me what other religions believe in it.

....So why should i trust ANY assessment you make about how your faith makes more sense, or has less risk?
I never said I believe in hell. I am agnostic about it. I think it is a possibility.

No, you're clinging to them quite desperately.
I maintain that my assumptions aren't set in stone. e.g. at the start of this post I mentioned that I used to believe in a young earth.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
I asked before what you've done to investigate the possible consequences of the religions you dismiss as not being terribly important. The clear fact is: damn close to nothing at all.

So you can't really ask ME to do your homework in the same thread you're trying to tell me how the only consequences that matter are those of your faith.
So you want me to research all of the religions (which would take years) but you can't just answer simple questions?


"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"
Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!
So the chance of eternal extreme hell being real if Poseidon or the FSM is real is the same if the Christian God is real?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
It is conceivable that demons are trying to undermine people's faith.
It's conceivable that God slept with twenty male prostitutes the night before he destroyed Sodom. I have read that fanfiction.
I'm not going to bet eternity on that story, though.
That's what my sisters believe and their pastor preaches it. C. S. Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" is based on that idea.
Yeah, sure. It's an idea. Lots of ideas lend themselves well to fiction. Not God and the male prostitutes, maybe. But that might have been the writer.
If you replace God, Michael and Jesus in that story with Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas, and change references to Sodom to Gondor, it's pretty much still a story of the night before the orcs lay siege. No other changes need to be made.

I did enjoy the way God was laying about with great big tips, secure in the knowledge that he'd get all the gold back inside of two days, scavenged from the destruction.
God (in this fiction) can create an infinite amount of gold, but he wants to keep his hands on every coin. What a dick, you know?
Also there is the story of Job where Satan asked God if he could make Job suffer to see how strong Job's faith was.
Yeah, god comes across as a real dick in that one, too. Job loses his ten children, but he gets new wives and new children in the end, so it's a happy ending? Really?
Also this was written by King David: (apparently)
Say rather 'traditionally.'
So if you actually look at the Bible, this kind of behavior is fairly normal for God.....
Yeah. Big dick in the sky.
Why should i follow him, even if he's real?

Oh, yeah. To stay out of Hell by being a butt snorkel.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Ok since I'm apparently "supremely unqualified" to talk about Poseidon, what about you? Are you qualified?
I'm not trying to say that the atheism is the best chance to avoid Hell, or Hades, or Ma'at's feather, or Niffelheim. I haven't made any claims about the relative merits of any belief or disbelief.
You have.
And your claims don't stand up to analysis.
If so, why is my statement that "there aren't many consequences" incorrect?
I didn't say it was incorrect. I said that you didn't know what you were talking about.
Please demonstrate why there are in fact *many consequences* about beliefs in Poseidon.
That's not a claim i made.
Do you understand the term 'burden of proof?'
What's the burden of proof laid upon someone who is not making any claims?
BTW do you accept that there currently aren't many believers in Poseidon? If the existence of Poseidon matters then why aren't many people worried about the consequences?
Maybe because 'many people' are as ignorant as you are about Greek or Roman deities? Maybe because not many people have actually tried to use Pascal's Wager on any faith but their own as a rationalization?
But since argument by popularity is a fool's game, it's not really important, is it?
I'm quite okay with the idea that a majority of humanity is wrong about their afterlife beliefs. We are kind of a stupid species, prone to fads and weak on analysis.
What is worse that being "pain itself" for an eternity?
Being in pain for all eternity for no good reason? That would be painful AND humiliating, wouldn't it?
Imagine if spending 15 minutes studying Amateratsu or Ma'at could have saved you from that eternity of pain, how'd you feel, then?
Or 10 minutes with someone who'd read the Koran.
Please let me know. And if there is something worse, can you show me what other religions believe in it.
Again, not my job.
But if you're going to claim that only Christ can save me from eternal pain, then you need to show that no one else has that threat.
I never said I believe in hell. I am agnostic about it. I think it is a possibility.
But it's the only possibility you seem willing to credit.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
So you want me to research all of the religions
I don't want you to do anything, ExC. You're beginning to make things up.
(which would take years)
Well, yes. There are people who spend years studying theology in a comparative way. People who actually do know how many religions threaten eternal suffering, or oblivion, or the afterlife along the Mormon model, and so on.
You're not one of them, you're not in a position to make the claims you're making.
but you can't just answer simple questions?
Why should i? IF you want to be able to claim that your god is the hoariest, meanest, least forgiving bastard, then you need to do the heavy lifting to make your claims valid.
"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

So the chance of eternal extreme hell being real if Poseidon or the FSM is real is the same if the Christian God is real?
No, trying to justify a belief because lots of people share it is a worthless argument. All that proves is that christainity's marketing was effective. I mean, burning competitors at the stake does wonders for brand loyalty...
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

Hi I just want to focus on this for now even though you're talking about lots of different things....

I'm not aware of any believers in Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti monster who also believe that non-believers suffer eternally.

But let's say that there are ten people who believe that non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM go to hell forever.

I think there are many hundreds of millions of Christians that believe that non-believers go to hell forever.

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 10 believers or 100,000,000+ believers? Let's assume that the ten believers aren't geniuses.

So which would you put your money on?

Though the number of believers would be less than ten - I think it is closer to zero. If you disagree with this, please prove that someone honestly believes that non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM suffer eternally....

And there might even be more than a billion Christians that believe non-believers got to hell.... so who would you put your money on - something that zero people believe or something a billion people believe?

I know something having more believers doesn't completely prove it's true. But if you're talking about a court case it is considered to be evidence.

I remember you complaining that I expected you to provide answers even though I hadn't researched all of the different religions that exist. You do know that it takes several years even to be quite knowledgeable about one religion - I mean it takes years to train pastors.

So this is the only topic I think I'll debate with you for now. I hope you can give me an adequate reply where you are addressing my questions rather than just not taking me seriously.

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?

Remember I'm talking about what is more likely not what is definitely true. And if you think there are more than 0 believers you need to provide hard evidence, not just speculation.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?
Pick ANY scientific theory.
Germ theory, let's say. Before the discovery of germs, everyone either believed diseases were punishments from gods, caused by demon possession, imbalances of the humours, fae poison or any number of things. The number of people who believed germs caused disease was 0.
But if 100,000,000 people were diseased, then somewhere close to 100,000,000 people were suffering from germs.

This applies to any scientific or other factual discovery. No one believed any of them before they were thought up, investigated, established, cartoons made, pictures drawn, reports published and given names. Not necessarily in that order...

The number of people who BELIEVE something to be true has nothing at all to do with how true it is or isn't.
The numbers are not useful in determining whether something is certainly true, or likely true, or unlikely, or just plain fictional.

There is no debate.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Yes there are examples where almost everyone believes in something and no-one believes in the truth. But I think there are more examples where at least one person knows the truth rather than believing a lie.

So in this example the focus is whether or not non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM suffer eternally. Are you saying that this belief, which would have zero believers is the truth?

By truth I mean that assuming Poseidon or the FSM existed, they would make non-believers suffer eternally. Do you consider it an undiscovered fact?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Yes there are examples where almost everyone believes in something and no-one believes in the truth. But I think there are more examples where at least one person knows the truth rather than believing a lie.
So what? 1 person, 100,000,000 person? The difference does not change what is and isn't true.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Oh! And i take you quite seriously.
Which is not to say i take Pascal's Wager or argument by popularity seriously. Or any of the gods. Bible fanfiction, yes, but not Koran fanfiction.
 

braces_for_impact

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
3,396
Location
Clearwater, FL.
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Sure I prayed, and searched. The only one that really knows how hard is me, but I couldn't tell you how many times I've been told by a Christian that I either never truly believed, or I wasn't seeking hard enough. The goalposts are moved so that one can never score. The bible says if we look, we will find. Another empty promise made by the book.

How incredibly fortunate for all these Christians to be be born in the geographic area where the predominate religion just so happens to be the right one. How incredibly unlucky for all those poor bastards that are not. For some strange reason they all feel an equal conviction of the spirit that their religion is the right one. They say that they have seen true miracles and they know their god was responsible. They have the AUDACITY to pick unique characteristics of their own religion that is completely arbitrary and then for some reason imply that their religion is the right one because their religion possesses that characteristic. Just as you are doing with the extremes of heaven and hell excreationist. Having the ultimate carrot and stick is not an explanation of why something is true, my friend. It's only a non-sequitur. Think about this for a second. I could just as easily say that we know Jainism is the only true religion, because it is the world's most passive religion. Having the best heaven and the worst hell simply has NO bearing on whether Christianity is true.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Even when no-one believed in it, there was evidence that germ theory was true. As far as the idea that the Christian God will eternally punish unbelievers goes, there is a lot of Biblical support. (that's a separate issue to whether to Bible is factually true)

But is there equally strong evidence that if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Poseidon existed they'd also punish unbelievers eternally?

I'm serious. Where is the evidence? Like in the case of germ theory, even if no-one believed it, there still should be evidence.

Are there any scrolls or something that hint that maybe unbelievers of the FSM will be eternally punished?
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
So what? 1 person, 100,000,000 person? The difference does not change what is and isn't true.
Let's say they're equally well educated.... do you trust what mainstream educated people say compared to lone believers in a theory (that aren't geniuses)? Most educated people believe in evolution. A minority believe that aliens directed evolution, etc. Do you generally go along with what mainstream science says or do you investigate everything yourself? I mean have you investigated Einstein's theories yourself and quantum physics, etc? Have you carefully checked out what people who have a different view think (that are considered "nuts")? That is similar to you saying I'm supposed to investigate the claims of all of the other religions first. It is also similar to my limited knowledge of Hades. I'm sure you also have a limited knowledge of some of the science or history that you believe.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
....The bible says if we look, we will find.....
Jeremiah:29:13 - "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/4-29.htm
"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul."

See also
http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/10.htm
http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/22.htm

So there are verses that say that not all seekers will find God.

BTW did you kneel on the ground and pour out your heart, etc?

Just as you are doing with the extremes of heaven and hell excreationist. Having the ultimate carrot and stick is not an explanation of why something is true, my friend.
I'm saying that it should be taken into account - just like some rules about physical safety are important even though they are unlikely to needed by a particular person. (e.g. wearing seatbelts if there was no law about it)

It's only a non-sequitur. Think about this for a second. I could just as easily say that we know Jainism is the only true religion, because it is the world's most passive religion. Having the best heaven and the worst hell simply has NO bearing on whether Christianity is true.
It makes sense it should be investigated to some extent though.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
....Again, not my job.
But if you're going to claim that only Christ can save me from eternal pain, then you need to show that no one else has that threat.....

I think that's like me saying that there is only one Queen Elizabeth in the world. For you to disprove that you just need to find one example where there is a duplicate of the Queen somewhere else.... but for me to prove my statement I need to simultaneous check every inch of the earth.... if it wasn't simultaneously when I was checking Australia the duplicate could have moved to Africa and then back to Australia while I was checking Africa...
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
"So you want me to research all of the religions"
I don't want you to do anything, ExC. You're beginning to make things up. Well, yes. There are people who spend years studying theology in a comparative way. People who actually do know how many religions threaten eternal suffering, or oblivion, or the afterlife along the Mormon model, and so on.
Well it is far quicker for you to just educate me about that rather than me trying to find this information for myself. And oblivion is irrelevant compared to the threat of eternal suffering.

You're not one of them, you're not in a position to make the claims you're making.
How can you be sure that I'm incorrect in my assertion that only Christianity threatens eternal punishment for unbelievers?

"but you can't just answer simple questions?"
Why should i? IF you want to be able to claim that your god is the hoariest, meanest, least forgiving bastard, then you need to do the heavy lifting to make your claims valid.
That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world. If someone disagrees, it should be up to them to point out a person that is taller - the person who made the original claim shouldn't be forced to prove that every single person - all 7 billion - is not taller.
 

jonJ

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
171
Location
Blaxland NSW
Basic Beliefs
Atheism
Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?

Yep, you've nailed it. Hinduism is definitely true, because it has way more than 100,000,000 believers. Of course, so does Islam, so that must be true too. And Buddhism, and Marxism, and Christianity. Only trouble is, they all contradict each other, so all those believers cancel each other out. Bummer!

That's why it's better to believe something which is supported by evidence. That way, when someone disagrees with you, you can show them why they're wrong.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Yep, you've nailed it. Hinduism is definitely true,
I said "which belief seems more likely to be true" - not which is definitely true. :rolleyes:

because it has way more than 100,000,000 believers. Of course, so does Islam, so that must be true too. And Buddhism, and Marxism, and Christianity. Only trouble is, they all contradict each other, so all those believers cancel each other out. Bummer!
I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions.

That's why it's better to believe something which is supported by evidence. That way, when someone disagrees with you, you can show them why they're wrong.
Well I'd say that the thing I'm talking about that has no believers (that the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if He exists, will eternally punish all nonbelievers) has no evidence. The opposing thing is that the Christian God, if He exists, would eternally punish nonbelievers. That is supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching. The focus is on the Flying Spaghetti Monster and eternal punishment and whether this seems theologically sound.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
But is there equally strong evidence that if the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Poseidon existed they'd also punish unbelievers eternally?
Wrong question.
Someone else brought up Poseidon as one example.
I don't recall who brought up the Flying Pasta Beast.
You're claiming one religion out of the thousands is the only one with consequences worth worrying about.

To make this argument work, you need to be able to show that Hell or worse is not threatened by any of:

A, Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan, Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch'ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T'eng-k'ang, Chen Kao, Ch'eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch'ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch'ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T'i, Ch'ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch'üan, Di Jun, Fan K'uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch'iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T'u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T'ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch'ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T'ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P'an Niang, P'an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch'uan, Phan Ku, P'i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch'ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T'ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T'ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts'an Nu, Ts'ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T'shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T'ung Chung-chung, T'ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T'ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch'ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch'iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T'ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhinü, , Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch'ang-O, Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt'ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb'a, Jedza, Joda-mate, Kaldas, Kaltes, Keretkun, Khadau, Khursun (Khors), Kostrubonko, Kovas, Krumine, Kupala, Kupalo, Laima, Leshy, Marina, Marzana, Matergabiae, Mat Syra Zemlya, Medeine, Menu (Menulis), Mir-Susne-Khum, Myesyats, Nastasija, (Russia) Goddess of sleep., Nelaima, Norov, Numi-Tarem, Nyia, Ora, Ot, Patollo, Patrimpas, Pereplut, Perkuno, Perun, Pikuolis, Pilnytis, Piluitus, Potrimpo, Puskaitis, Rod, Rugevit, Rultennin, Rusalki, Sakhadai-Noin, Saule, Semargl, Stribog, Sudjaje, Svantovit (Svantevit, Svitovyd), Svarazic (Svarozic, Svarogich), Tengri, Tñairgin, Triglav, Ulgen (Ulgan, Ülgön), Veles (Volos), Vesna, Xatel-Ekwa, Xoli-Kaltes, Yamm, Yarilo, Yarovit, Ynakhsyt, Zaria, Zeme mate, Zemyna, Ziva (Siva), Zizilia, Zonget, Zorya, Zvoruna, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zywie, Aditi, Adityas, Ambika, Ananta (Shesha), Annapurna (Annapatni), Aruna, Ashvins, Balarama, Bhairavi, Brahma, Buddha, Dakini, Devi, Dharma, Dhisana, Durga, Dyaus, Ganesa (Ganesha), Ganga (Ganges), Garuda, Gauri, Gopis, Hanuman, Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha, Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, Shine-Tsu-Hiko, Shoten, Susa-no-wo, Tajika-no-mikoto, Tsuki-yomi, Uka no Mitanna, Uke-mochi, Uso-dori, Uzume, Wakahirume, Yainato-Hnneno-Mikoi, Yama-No-Kami, Yama-no-Karni, Yaya-Zakurai, Yuki-Onne, Agni, Ammavaru, Asuras, Banka-Mundi, Brihaspati, Budhi Pallien, Candi, Challalamma, Chinnintamma, Devas, Dyaush, Gauri-Sankar, Grhadevi, Gujeswari, Indra, Kali, Lohasur Devi, Mayavel, Mitra, Prajapati, Puchan, Purandhi, Rakshas, Rudrani, Rumina, Samundra, Sarasvati, Savitar, Siva (Shiva), Soma, Sura, Surabhi, Tulsi, Ushas, Vata, Visvamitra, Vivasvat, Vritra, Waghai Devi, Yaparamma, Yayu, Zumiang Nui, Diti, Dewi Shri, Po Yan Dari, Shuzanghu, Antaboga, Yakushi Nyorai, Mulhalmoni, Tankun, Yondung Halmoni, Aryong Jong, Quan Yin , Tengri, Uminai-gami, Kamado-No-Kami, Kunitokotatchi, Giri Devi, Dewi Nawang Sasih, Brag-srin-mo, Samanta-Bhadra, Sangs-rgyas-mkhá, Sengdroma, Sgeg-mo-ma, Tho-og, Ui Tango, Yum-chen-mo, Zas-ster-ma-dmar-mo, Chandra, Dyaus, Ratri, Rodasi, Vayu, Au-Co, Abassi , Abuk , Adu Ogyinae , Agé , Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Efé, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, Gû, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, Hêbiesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Lebé, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyambé, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui'goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru, , Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi, Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O, Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairmé, Clairmeziné, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aimée, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sirêne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka, Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D'Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu'Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady, Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth, Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros, Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-ña, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirapé , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga'an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha'kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He'mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap'a, i'noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamná, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana'ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K'in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko'lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya'I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa'we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani'to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakawé, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil'slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikváhahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta'xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume', Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To'nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul 'Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Udó , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz, Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir ,Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua'i, 'Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka', Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, 'Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku'ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka'a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta'aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan, Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachué, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap'a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimbó, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Topétine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume Topana
I'm serious.
So am I. Your argument depends on being able to identify and dismiss every one of the gods above, most of the natural forces given faces, some of the more judgmental First Men, and the various demigods that stand as intercessors between us and the judges.

You're not anywhere near capable of supporting this argument, are you?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Let's say they're equally well educated....
Okay. "They're equally well educated."
do you trust what mainstream educated people say compared to lone believers in a theory
Are you just insistent on not getting the point?
Most educated people believe in evolution.
Most educated people accept evolutionary theory, as they have some experience with the evidence that supports the ToE, or with the general scientific process which has produced the ToE as one of the best supported scientific theories to date.
It's about the support FOR the theory, not the number of people or the number of experts that accept it.
That is similar to you saying I'm supposed to investigate the claims of all of the other religions first.
No, it's not.
I'm saying you cannot claim that one religion is the most important, or the most to be feared, without being able to actually compare other religions to yours.
It is also similar to my limited knowledge of Hades. I'm sure you also have a limited knowledge of some of the science or history that you believe.
But i don't 'believe' science. If new evidence forces scientists to change the age of the Universe by a triillion years or the age of the Earth by two billion years, and the theories that explain the differences withstand scrutiny then that's the result of the scientific method. Not a new belief.... I still trust the process, though new results have been offered. Nothing of my 'beliefs' has changed.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
I think that's like me saying that there is only one Queen Elizabeth in the world. For you to disprove that you just need to find one example where there is a duplicate of the Queen somewhere else....
That would be one way.
Or, it is sufficient for me to show that you never, ever researched how many monarchies there are, or the names of even one other monarch, to establish that your claim is not worth the paper it's not printed on.
but for me to prove my statement I need to simultaneous check every inch of the earth....
That's kind of a stupid way to count the number of QE's in the world... But if you prefer brute force, have at it.
if it wasn't simultaneously when I was checking Australia the duplicate could have moved to Africa and then back to Australia while I was checking Africa...
Or, you could count monarchies and determine the names of their monarchs, and possible heirs, for a given time, so that your claim would be believable and possible to support.

Look, it's not like i've decided to inflict some horrible burden upon you.
YOU'RE making a claim.
YOU'RE the one stuck with either supporting it or looking like a fool because you can't support it and want to blame others for scrutinizing your claim.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Well it is far quicker for you to just educate me about that rather than me trying to find this information for myself. And oblivion is irrelevant compared to the threat of eternal suffering.
But you're missing the point. Even if you establish that Poseidon isn't that much of a threat, what about the other 3000 religious traditions out there? Do i have to bring them up one at a time as objections, THEN teach you the answer to the question you should have asked before making your claim?
How can you be sure that I'm incorrect in my assertion that only Christianity threatens eternal punishment for unbelievers?
I didn't say you are. I asked how you can be sure that you're correct, when you obviously haven't looked closely at every other religion. Or any other, apparently.
"but you can't just answer simple questions?"
They're not just 'simple questions,' they're clear signs you're unprepared for the claims you've made.
That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world. If someone disagrees,
Disagree? You mean, when you say 'tallest living person' and someone in the crowd asks, "How do you know for sure?" you don't have to explain? The burden of proof is on the person asking the simple question?
How handy for you.
 

Tom Sawyer

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Messages
17,030
Location
Toronto
Basic Beliefs
That I'm God
Even when no-one believed in it, there was evidence that germ theory was true. As far as the idea that the Christian God will eternally punish unbelievers goes, there is a lot of Biblical support. (that's a separate issue to whether to Bible is factually true)

I'm just curious. You say that the Christian God will punish unbelievers, so it's best to pray from time to time, just in case. Why, however, would that matter? If you don't actually believe in him or follow him, but just offer up a prayer every now and again in order to cover your ass, what makes you think that he would judge you any differently than someone who just plain didn't believe and didn't bother with him at all?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
That is like me claiming that a particular person is the tallest living person in the world.
Let's go with that for a minute.

You add an exhibit to your circus, the world's Tallest Living Man.
You travel to Salt Lake City, where they accept this claim without quibble.
You travel with the same acts to St. Louis. In St. Louis, you claim that he is the World's Tallest Living Man.
A reporter trying to make sure his story is accurate asks you how you know this to be true.
You say, "Well, five hundred thousand people in Salt Lake City and the surrounding towns believe he's the World's Tallest Living Man, so it's probably a good bet, huh? Half a million Mormons, they're probably right."

All i asked was how much effort you put into making sure Poseidon posed no threat before you dismissed him as a threat.
You had zip bupkes fuck-all to support your claim. Except that a lot of people seem to accept your argument...
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Wrong question.
Someone else brought up Poseidon as one example.
I don't recall who brought up the Flying Pasta Beast.
You're claiming one religion out of the thousands is the only one with consequences worth worrying about.

To make this argument work, you need to be able to show that Hell or worse is not threatened by any of:

Going back to what we were talking about:

"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"
Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

We were talking about Poseidon vs the Christian God. I want to discuss that first. You were dismissing my argument due to "argument from popularity".

BTW you seem to be about the only one on this board (I think) and the other two boards I posted this on who openly thinks I'm wrong about the Christian God's punishment for unbelief being the only example of that kind amongst the other religions.

Let's say I made the statement that cheetahs are the fastest animal. It is according to a lot of sources. For me to state that as a fact do I need to research every other animal and show to you that every other animal is not as fast or faster than a cheetah - I think that is a good analogy to what you're saying.
 

jonJ

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
171
Location
Blaxland NSW
Basic Beliefs
Atheism
I said "which belief seems more likely to be true" - not which is definitely true. :rolleyes:

So what extra probability is given to a belief by the addition of one extra believer? 1%? .001%? .0000001%? Let's get some actual figures here.

I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions.

Well, there are millions more believers in Hinduism than Buddhism, so does that make Hinduism true and Buddhism false? Or is Hinduism just more true?
But wait -- there are millions more believers in Islam than Hinduism, so does that make Islam more true than Hinduism?
Oh, and there are millions more atheists in China than Moslems worldwide, so I guess atheism is true after all, right?

Anyway, how do you feel about the proposition that women are less intelligent than men? You do realise that millions more people around the world believe that to be true than false? What about the proposition that gays should be killed? I'm pretty sure you'd still get a healthy majority voting for that one. If you evaluate the truth of something by the number of people who believe in it, you're not only going to end up believing some pretty weird and nasty things, you're also going to have to keep changing what you believe as people change their minds, and old ones die while new ones come along.

Well I'd say that the thing I'm talking about that has no believers (that the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if He exists, will eternally punish all nonbelievers) has no evidence. The opposing thing is that the Christian God, if He exists, would eternally punish nonbelievers. That is supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching. The focus is on the Flying Spaghetti Monster and eternal punishment and whether this seems theologically sound.

And what does being 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching' have to do with being true? Can you, in fact, cite anything 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and teaching' which is generally accepted to be true by people worldwide? Or anything 'theologically sound' that most people actually believe?
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
So what extra probability is given to a belief by the addition of one extra believer? 1%? .001%? .0000001%? Let's get some actual figures here.
I'm talking about which is more probable e.g. one would be more than 50%, the other less than 50%.

Well, there are millions more believers in Hinduism than Buddhism, so does that make Hinduism true and Buddhism false? Or is Hinduism just more true?
But wait -- there are millions more believers in Islam than Hinduism, so does that make Islam more true than Hinduism?
Oh, and there are millions more atheists in China than Moslems worldwide, so I guess atheism is true after all, right?
Like I said, "I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions." You're going off topic and I don't want to discuss things that are irrelevant to the topic like that.

Anyway, how do you feel about the proposition that women are less intelligent than men? You do realise that millions more people around the world believe that to be true than false? What about the proposition that gays should be killed? I'm pretty sure you'd still get a healthy majority voting for that one. If you evaluate the truth of something by the number of people who believe in it, you're not only going to end up believing some pretty weird and nasty things, you're also going to have to keep changing what you believe as people change their minds, and old ones die while new ones come along.
Like I said, "I talking about millions of believers vs. 0 believers not millions vs. millions."

And what does being 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching' have to do with being true?
Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence and I think this outweighs the evidence that Poseidon or the FSM would punish all nonbelievers eternally. Or do you disagree?

Can you, in fact, cite anything 'supported by a lot of Bible verses and teaching' which is generally accepted to be true by people worldwide?
Well it is generally accepted that according to Christian theology, if Christianity is true, believers go to heaven. (it is less accepted that non-believers go to hell though still widely believed)

Or anything 'theologically sound' that most people actually believe?
Well there are about 2.3 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims.... that's 3.9 billion out of 7 billion - I suspect most people believe in monotheism or Heaven or that the universe was created by a god. If it isn't most people it is close to half of people.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
I'm just curious. You say that the Christian God will punish unbelievers, so it's best to pray from time to time, just in case. Why, however, would that matter? If you don't actually believe in him or follow him, but just offer up a prayer every now and again in order to cover your ass, what makes you think that he would judge you any differently than someone who just plain didn't believe and didn't bother with him at all?
If you seeked God and found him then you'd have a genuine belief in Him and could be saved. BTW I haven't tried very hard to seek God since I've been a non-believer.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
But you're missing the point. Even if you establish that Poseidon isn't that much of a threat, what about the other 3000 religious traditions out there? Do i have to bring them up one at a time as objections, THEN teach you the answer to the question you should have asked before making your claim?
If you bring them up one at the time as objections you've got to explain why it is an objection - you haven't done this with Poseidon - you haven't shown he is a threat. You've just demanded me to prove that he isn't a threat. It's like the cheetah example. Let's say you said "what about foxes?" and then I dismissed that and you complained that I didn't even do any research on foxes. Then you listed 3000 other animals and demanded that I show that each and every one is not as fast as a cheetah. It is easier if you just showed some evidence that a particular animal is faster than a cheetah rather than me having to show that their land speed is less than a cheetah's. You might also say I'm using the "argument from authority" or "argument from popularity" fallacies if I referred to Wikipedia.

....I asked how you can be sure that you're correct, when you obviously haven't looked closely at every other religion.
Well I haven't looked closely at every other animal.... though I'm not completely sure that cheetahs are the fastest animal - but there is a good chance they are or at least it is a reasonable belief.

Disagree? You mean, when you say 'tallest living person' and someone in the crowd asks, "How do you know for sure?" you don't have to explain? The burden of proof is on the person asking the simple question?
How handy for you.
Ok what about cheetahs though. Just because I don't know something for sure it doesn't mean I can't have a provisional belief. Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?
 

Tom Sawyer

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Messages
17,030
Location
Toronto
Basic Beliefs
That I'm God
If you seeked God and found him then you'd have a genuine belief in Him and could be saved. BTW I haven't tried very hard to seek God since I've been a non-believer.

Then you should look harder. The lack of frost giants in the world is positive evidence of the existence of Odin killing them all. If you're going to dispute that, you're going to need to show me a frost giant to prove that Odin wasn't here getting rid of them.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
That would be one way.
Or, it is sufficient for me to show that you never, ever researched how many monarchies there are, or the names of even one other monarch, to establish that your claim is not worth the paper it's not printed on.
So do you think it is likely that a doppelgänger of Queen Elizabeth exists that is a genetic clone? Do you know how unlikely that is to happen by chance or do you think a supernatural or alien explanation might be possible?

That's kind of a stupid way to count the number of QE's in the world... But if you prefer brute force, have at it. Or, you could count monarchies and determine the names of their monarchs, and possible heirs, for a given time, so that your claim would be believable and possible to support.
I'm not saying that there are no other queens that are called Elizabeth. I'm saying that there aren't any genetic clones of her that are a result of chance or design. I'm not completely certain of that. Do you think my provisional belief is unreasonable?

Look, it's not like i've decided to inflict some horrible burden upon you.
YOU'RE making a claim.
YOU'RE the one stuck with either supporting it or looking like a fool because you can't support it and want to blame others for scrutinizing your claim.
You're also making the claim that Poseidon might punish unbelievers eternally. At the moment I'm only talking about Poseidon, not the other gods and religions. How am I supposed to "prove" to you that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally? Do I need to read everything related to Poseidon? Even if I did there could be the possibility that Poseidon would do it without humans knowing about it. Why do I need to "prove" that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally. What if I said that cheetahs are faster than sloths? There is the possibility that there are sloths that no-one has seen that are super-fast. In the same way there is a possibility that Poseidon would punish non-believers eternally.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
We were talking about Poseidon vs the Christian God. I want to discuss that first. You were dismissing my argument due to "argument from popularity".
Yes. Because that's what you're doing.
BTW you seem to be about the only one on this board (I think) and the other two boards I posted this on who openly thinks I'm wrong about the Christian God's punishment for unbelief being the only example of that kind amongst the other religions.
1) Tom Sawyer may be upset with you for this claim. Or disappointed.
2) Seriously, are you using a by-the-way argument from popularity in the middle of a defense of your argument from popularity?
3) I never said YOU ARE WRONG about the Christain god being the only one whe threatons to throw you into Hell. I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW he's the only one, and your answers are disappointing.
Let's say I made the statement that cheetahs are the fastest animal.
Then you'd be wrong.
It is according to a lot of sources.
And they'd be wrong, too.
For me to state that as a fact do I need to research every other animal and show to you that every other animal is not as fast or faster than a cheetah - I think that is a good analogy to what you're saying.
It would be a good analogy if you could find a qualified expert in comparative theology who has stated that God is...blah blah...for eternity.
That would have been a good reference to refer to when i asked 'how do you know?'
But saying 'Well, jeez, do you expect me to read up on every religion, or even the one religion under discussion, before i make absolute statements on a topic i know next to nothing about?' That's not really supporting any of your claims, is it?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
If you bring them up one at the time as objections you've got to explain why it is an objection - you haven't done this with Poseidon - you haven't shown he is a threat.
I have never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never said that lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat. What i havedone is asked how you came to the conclusion you did.
Your answers have been disappoint
You've just demanded me to prove that he isn't a threat.
No. You claimed there's not much of a risk to not believing in Poseidon. i asked how you concluded this. You apparently just dismissed it without knowing what you were talking about.
THAT is your failing, posting claims you haven't supported, can't support, won't research.
It's like the cheetah example. Let's say you said
Let's say i said that the Peregrine is a faster animal.

Deal with that.
Well I haven't looked closely at every other animal....
You also haven't looked too closely at the exact claim you made, or the ways the better websites frame their claim.
though I'm not completely sure that cheetahs are the fastest animal - but there is a good chance they are or at least it is a reasonable belief.
No, it's an error.
Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?
I don't even know why you continue to think i'm saying your statement is wrong.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
So do you think it is likely that a doppelgänger of Queen Elizabeth exists that is a genetic clone? Do you know how unlikely that is to happen by chance or do you think a supernatural or alien explanation might be possible?
Oh. By 'only one queen elizabeth' you meant that the one person sitting on the throne of England is a unique individual, holding a unique office. Not that there are no other queens named Elizabeth in the world at this moment... Because that was how i read your claim.

So the failure here was you not making your intentions clear. Kinda like calling the Cheetah the fastest animal.
You probably should have said 'the fastest land animal traveling across a surface under its own power over short bursts.'
I'm not saying that there are no other queens that are called Elizabeth. I'm saying that there aren't any genetic clones of her that are a result of chance or design.
Then why wasn't the word 'clone' in your original statement?
But still, i would not have to search the entire world. It would be enough to search Buckingham Palace. because even if a clone of Elizabeth is working as a stock broker in New York, she would not be QUEEN Elizabeth. That's an office. You can't clone an office, esp. of a monarchy. They're kinda mono-holdings.
I'm not completely certain of that. Do you think my provisional belief is unreasonable?
I think making the claim without doing the homework to support it is unreasonable. But here, just noting the age of successful cloning, the age of Queen Elizabeth I and II, and the definition of 'queen' would have been sufficient homework.
You didn't even do it for your thought experiment example....
You're also making the claim that Poseidon might punish unbelievers eternally.
'Might?' Yes, well, as far as you knew at the time you dismissed the threat, he could have.
At the moment I'm only talking about Poseidon, not the other gods and religions.
That's sad, because Poseidon is only an example.
But you're confident enough to make sweeping claims about all the gods not doing something, though you don't know shit about their pantheons or afterlives.
How am I supposed to "prove" to you that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally?
Please, please, please point to the post where i asked you to do this?
Why do I need to "prove" that Poseidon won't punish nonbelievers eternally.
Please, please, please point to the post where i asked you to do this?
What if I said that cheetahs are faster than sloths? There is the possibility that there are sloths that no-one has seen that are super-fast.
Then make it a defendable claim, ExC. Say 'cheetahs are faster than any sloth is capable of traveling across a surface, to th beast of our knowledge.'
In the same way there is a possibility that Poseidon would punish non-believers eternally.
Then how did you dismiss the possibility in the first place?
 

funinspace

Don't Panic
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
4,194
Location
Oregon
Gender
Alien
Basic Beliefs
functional atheist; theoretical agnostic
Well there are about 2.3 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims.... that's 3.9 billion out of 7 billion - I suspect most people believe in monotheism or Heaven or that the universe was created by a god. If it isn't most people it is close to half of people.

The major (with 100k plus followers) exclusive In or your Out (could be eternal torment or annihilation) clubs that I am aware of:

Christianity: Some Exclusive H&H; some discard hell in favor of annihilation; some discard hell but for the “truly” evil; some just send all to heaven; and some send those belonging to the “wrong” Christian sects to hell as well.
Islam: Exclusive H&H; I’m sure there are Islamic groups that are just as confusing as the Christian ones (I’m just not that up on it)
Jehovah Witness (odd example of an exclusive Xian club): Heaven for 144,000 chosen Witnesses, eternity on new earth for other Witnesses. All others annihilated. No hell.

Most of the rest of the deity-theologies, if they believe in an after world paradise, they tend to think most all people eventually find the route there. This includes Judaism. If there is an eternal torture chamber for the masses being manned by Allah or the Christian God, either one will be sending a minimum of 5 billion currently living humans to this hell hole. I’d understand the desire to avoid such a fate, but I’d have a hard time pretending to love such a monster, and I don’t see how such an all powerful monster wouldn’t see thru my pretense...

So does one pick a god to worship based upon the idea of lowering the risk of going to that god’s eternal torture chamber? Does such a god really accept a non-heart felt suck up? Should one pick the faster growing faith of Islam? Or should one pick a nice and relatively benign liberal Protestant Christian sect that lets you pretty much stay where you are at? Or does one just say screw it and pick one of those odd eastern faiths with reincarnation for the fun of it?

Supposedly about 75% of Americans still profess some version of a belief in the Christian God today. Yet, only 58% of Americans believe in a Hell. At the same time only about 25% of Americans regularly attend a church. So 2/3’s of American Christians put on their Christianity, like most people put on/off their shirt. Take it off when they go to bed, take it off to go swimming, take it off when hot, take it off when sun tanning, et.al. Yeah, an all-powerful, all knowing entity really appreciates a half hearted faith…

Ref: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/poll-americans-belief-god-strong-declining
 

ideologyhunter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,800
Location
Port Clinton, Ohio
Basic Beliefs
atheism/beatnikism
I like that there's "hard prayin'" versus, I guess, half-hearted prayin'. The latter would be "Hi God, me again, yadda yadda" and the 'hard' version would be showboating: "OHHHHH GODGODGODGODGOD!!!" Somehow it sounds more like constipation relief than, let's say, hard thinking. Now, hard thinking -- THAT'S hard.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
I like that there's "hard prayin'" versus, I guess, half-hearted prayin'. The latter would be "Hi God, me again, yadda yadda" and the 'hard' version would be showboating: "OHHHHH GODGODGODGODGOD!!!" Somehow it sounds more like constipation relief than, let's say, hard thinking. Now, hard thinking -- THAT'S hard.
I liked Twain's split, putting it into Outward prayers that other christains could see (world peace), and Inward prayers where you sat in the pew and asked for what you really wanted, such as that business you competed with to burn down and the pompous ass owner to die the death of a thousand rutabagas.
 

jonJ

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
171
Location
Blaxland NSW
Basic Beliefs
Atheism
Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence and I think this outweighs the evidence that Poseidon or the FSM would punish all nonbelievers eternally. Or do you disagree?

Something is only a 'form of evidence' if it can be shown that it tends to reveal the truth. Bible verses and preaching are no more 'evidence' for God than Lord of the Rings is evidence for Gandalf. You've established that a lot of people believe in the Christian God, but we knew that already. Your next step is to provide us with some reason to think they might be correct.
 

blastula

Contributor
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
7,951
Gender
Late for dinner
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic atheist
Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence

But do you think it's a good form of evidence that any of it's true? If you think so, then why aren't you a believer?
 

+or-1

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2004
Messages
129
Location
Tennerssee
Basic Beliefs
non-believer
Never pray at all. What would be the point? Now, prey on the other hand...
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,131
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Yes hell isn't proven but I think it is a slight possibility.

I don't find that it has even the slightest possibility of truth. **IF** the jesus/god of the bible is true then it is utterly incompatible with eternal damnation. It just doesn't compute. I cannot make myself come up with a way of seeing it as even a remote possibility. No god of love would have it. (And for what it's worth, no god that has it would buy a person's efforts to believe just to avoid it - he didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday).

So, no I don't see that as being even remotely possible at all in any way. I can't make myself even pretend.


I did pray once, I think I was like 21 or something. I got scared after watching some Mickey Rourke flick about being Satan (Angel Heart), woke me out of sleep with a full-on fear attack. So I did a prayer-like entreaty and felt all better. Just the thing to fight off a mind-induced fear based on a fictional movie. The fact that it worked made both the movie and the prayer so mundane as to cease discomfort.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
I have never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never said that lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat. What i havedone is asked how you came to the conclusion you did.
If you don't think the conclusion is perhaps mistaken then what is your major problem with the conclusion?

....You claimed there's not much of a risk to not believing in Poseidon. i asked how you concluded this. You apparently just dismissed it without knowing what you were talking about.
I have heard of Poseidon and read a bit about him and saw a character based on him in a movie. Do you expect me to know everything about Poseidon?

I don't think it matters how much I know about Poseidon.... what matters is whether my conclusion is correct. If you think my conclusion is incorrect then you ARE saying that maybe the lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat.

THAT is your failing, posting claims you haven't supported, can't support, won't research.
Let's say I claimed that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light (though I know of some people who would disagree). Would you object to me stating that? After all I haven't done any experiments or learnt the math behind that. I want to know.

Let's say i said that the Peregrine is a faster animal.
Yes after I posted that I realised I was talking about land speed. BTW by pointing that out you demonstrated how easy it is to disprove me - just show one counter-example. On the other hand for me to prove my statement I would have had to investigate every animal. You see I only thought about a few animals and decided that they weren't faster than a cheetah. I had considered birds but assumed that maybe they weren't faster than a cheetah. I guess I could have done proper research and looked up the speeds for birds. So you're saying I should investigate 3000+ religions or gods or whatever.... but similar to the cheetah example it is far easier for you to just provide ONE counter-example. If you don't know of any counter-example, what is your objection? You're just saying maybe I'm wrong. But unless you can provide some evidence then your words aren't very helpful. It's like you saying "maybe you're wrong about the cheetah" and not giving an example of a faster animal. It is just annoying.

"Do you know why no one else seems to insist that I'm wrong about my statement that Christianity is about the only religion that sends nonbelievers to hell?"
....I don't even know why you continue to think i'm saying your statement is wrong.
If you don't think I'm wrong then what is your problem with that statement? If my statement is true then it means that Poseidon doesn't send nonbelievers to hell.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
I don't find that it has even the slightest possibility of truth. **IF** the jesus/god of the bible is true then it is utterly incompatible with eternal damnation. It just doesn't compute.
Well large number of theologians and Christians can accept it.
BTW in this video the pastor is saying eternal damnation makes God great and glorious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzynfCuJRBY

I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false. (on the other hand I don't really believe in hell personally)

No god of love would have it.
Well lots of Christians believe in eternal damnation but think God has a perfect love for us.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
"Well what matters is the evidence, and "supported by a lot of Bible verses and preaching" is a form of evidence"
But do you think it's a good form of evidence that any of it's true? If you think so, then why aren't you a believer?

The context was whether there was more evidence that Poseidon's punishment for unbelievers would be as extreme as the Christian God's. I think there is some evidence that Christianity is true. There is a lot of archaeological evidence and people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel Lee Strobel claimed to be an atheist but then converted after investigating the evidence. I have many theological issues though.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
Something is only a 'form of evidence' if it can be shown that it tends to reveal the truth. Bible verses and preaching are no more 'evidence' for God than Lord of the Rings is evidence for Gandalf. You've established that a lot of people believe in the Christian God, but we knew that already. Your next step is to provide us with some reason to think they might be correct.
No-one believes that Lord of the Rings talks about real people. People who were apparently atheists like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel Lee Strobel who have converted based on the evidence they think they've found - mostly from the Bible. I can't prove whether the Bible is the Truth or not, but it would be more likely to be the truth than Lord of the Rings. I mean a lot of people have come to believe in God based on the Bible. None have come to believe in Gandalf. Perhaps Keith&Co. will complain that I haven't thoroughly researched that last statement and I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe those conversions are due to the Bible being true - but at least from their points of view it is the truth.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
....3) I never said YOU ARE WRONG about the Christian god being the only one who threatens to throw you into Hell. I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW he's the only one, and your answers are disappointing.
Ok.... well over the years I've learnt about different religions. I think in Tibetan Buddhism they believe in hell but I think that is just for bad people. Muslims believe in many levels of hell I think well-behaved non-believers aren't punished very severely. Over the last several months I've been going to a church every now and then. Initially they had services where you could ask questions. I asked hard questions about hell and science and the Bible. Anyway one of the last times I went there I was talking to a guy studying theology and he said that Christianity is the only religion which believes that all people are inherently bad and deserve to go to hell. It is only a belief in Jesus that saves them from hell. He has been studying theology a lot and should be knowledgeable about that. I've also watched a Christian video called "Hell's Bells - The Dangers of Rock and Roll". They said that people who believe that there are many paths to Heaven are wrong - even though many Christians believe that. In the Bible it says that Jesus is the only way to the Father. That implies that the only way to escape hell is through Jesus. I have discussed this type of thing a few times and no-one has ever said that there are other religions that believe all non-believers go to hell.

So basically as far as I know only a few religions believe in hell. In many of them it isn't eternal. As far as I know Christianity is the only religion that says that ALL people deserve to go to hell. It is only through belief that anyone is saved.

I haven't come across anyone else saying that there are other religions that also believe that everyone deserves eternal punishment. I don't KNOW that I'm right about that. Though I think I am probably right about the major religions at least. What do you think? Do you think there are other religions that believe that EVERYONE deserves eternal punishment. (BTW believers apparently go to Heaven not because they deserve it, but because salvation is a free gift showing somehow that God has infinite love for us)
 

jonJ

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
171
Location
Blaxland NSW
Basic Beliefs
Atheism
I can't prove whether the Bible is the Truth or not, but it would be more likely to be the truth than Lord of the Rings.

Why do you think that? Never mind that a lot of other people believe it. Why do you think so? What is your evidence?

Your defence of Christianity seems to be based entirely on the fact that lots of other people believe in it, yet when it's pointed out to you that many more people don't believe in Christianity than do, you dismiss that as irrelevant. Why is the fact that lots of people believe in the Bible a reason for you to believe in the Bible, when the fact that lots of people believe in the Koran is not a reason for you to believe in the Koran?

Lee Strobel is one person who has (or claims to have) converted from atheism to Christianity. I can point you to Richard Dawkins' Converts' Corner where there are forty-five pages of accounts from Christians who have converted to atheism, well over 1000 in all, many of them citing 'evidence' as their main reason for doing so. Why do you think one person going the other way outweighs these?

Was Strobel really ever an atheist? There doesn't seem to be any way to tell. And theists pretending to be, or have been, atheists, in the hope that this will make their arguments more effective, is a fairly common tactic -- as I'm sure you know.
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 29, 2000
Messages
1,803
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
...Lee Strobel is one person who has (or claims to have) converted from atheism to Christianity. I can point you to Richard Dawkins' Converts' Corner where there are forty-five pages of accounts from Christians who have converted to atheism, well over 1000 in all, many of them citing 'evidence' as their main reason for doing so. Why do you think one person going the other way outweighs these?....
If I was a Christian then I would have an answer for that but I'm not and think the evidence against Christianity outweighs the evidence for it. But I think there are examples of atheists converting to Christianity so there must be some kind of evidence that Christianity is true. It is like a court case. There might be a few possibilities with evidence for each. Though there is only one fact about what happened the other evidence could still be considered to be form of evidence.

BTW here is a list of notable converts - not just any old convert: (Lee Strobel didn't even make that list)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_nontheism

Compare the size of the list to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Nontheism

My guess at the Christian explanation of deconversions might be that they never really knew the true God (my sisters and their church believe that a lot of so-called Christians are possessed with "religious demons" and they experience "counterfeit" gifts). They could also have had other demons affecting their judgement. BTW a Christian wrote me a letter and said I was possessed by an intellectual demon. He is very intelligent though - I mean he isn't someone I would have expected to believe that.

From his letter:
So you can better understand these demons, I will mention a couple in your life so you can identify their influence in your mind. One spirit is an Intellectual spirit. This spirit encourages you to research & attempt to find scientific explanations to God, creation, religion, philosophical things, etc. God simply asks us to trust in Him & believe. The Holy Spirit gives us that ability.

BTW Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

It is saying that popularity of deconversions doesn't mean it is the right path.
 

Juma

Gone
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
4,782
Location
Sweden
Basic Beliefs
Sceptic
I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false. (on the other hand I don't really believe in hell personally)
Ah. You dont believe in science (QM and relativity being amongst the best proven theories of science) and you are not entirely sure there is no hell...



Well lots of Christians believe in eternal damnation but think God has a perfect love for us.
And you seem this to be perfectly reasonable?

Wow! This is a pretty good example of intellectual dissonance...
 
Top Bottom