I can understand why North Korea needs nuclear weapons. It is the only proven deterrent against US agression. But Pyramid Head is kidding himself if he thinks North Korean leaders aren't responsible for starving their own population. They are as brutal and corrupt as it gets.
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North Korean defector and her son die of starvation in South Korea after being denied welfare
- Thread starter PyramidHead
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I can understand why North Korea needs nuclear weapons. It is the only proven deterrent against US agression. But Pyramid Head is kidding himself if he thinks North Korean leaders aren't responsible for starving their own population. They are as brutal and corrupt as it gets.
PyramidHead
Contributor
I'm not denying that they do, just that they do less than even some developed countries, and for reasons unrelated to a fire-breathing evil wizard with a socialism cauldron casting famine spells
PyramidHead
Contributor
That's certainly the story that gets the most airplay, but I don't believe it and neither should anyone who understands the ease with which such a story could be intentionally pushed by a coalition of settler-colonial powers with incredible wealth and obvious material interests in discrediting all alternative accounts.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
It's the story Could North Koreans protest in Pyongyang for an apology from the Kim government over deaths allegedly caused by lack of food?
PyramidHead
Contributor
Sure, why not? The DPRK grants its citizens freedom of assembly. Most citizens (about 3/4 more or less) wouldn't want an apology, though, because they don't hold the government responsible for their food shortages.
Pyramidhead, I'll bite. You've caught my interest.
What do you think the Kim regime is like? Do you think they are benevolent towards their people? Do you think they are elected? Do you think the labourcamps and assassinations and loyalty measuring are fabricated stories by the west?
What do you think the Kim regime is like? Do you think they are benevolent towards their people? Do you think they are elected? Do you think the labourcamps and assassinations and loyalty measuring are fabricated stories by the west?
PyramidHead
Contributor
I don't just think that, I'm pretty sure I know it. This isn't private information if you know the right databases. For example, here's a breakdown of their parliamentary elections for the past dozen terms or so. They have a strong majority party, but several others including an independent one with a religious constituency, and they get proportional representation. Their electoral system is not the same as the West, but it's actually arguably more democratic. Before any election is a long, drawn out period of public consensus-finding that uses polls and informal votes (similar to caucuses), and when a consensus is reached to everyone's satisfaction, everybody unites behind it and the party/candidate is selected. It's the same system that was used for much of the USSR's existence, called democratic centralism, and it's part of their political psychology and culture; they view the eventual rallying behind the will of the majority (centralism) as no less important than determining what that will may be.
The assassinations and labor camps are just propaganda. Like every developed nation, the DPRK has prisons and prisoners. There is no evidence of anything more sinister than that, and PLENTY of evidence of stories told about the regime later being definitively exposed as false. For example, Kim Jong Un's girlfriend, allegedly shot by a firing squad over a sex tape, was seen alive and well a year later, and the video in question turned out to be a pop singer dancing to an Elvis song. A general rumored to be executed for disloyalty in February 2016 showed up in May of that year at a conference no worse for wear. The one about Un feeding his uncle to a pack of wild dogs was apparently satire. When they excavated an ancient stone medallion with writing on it that referenced a traditional myth about a unicorn, the West reported it as "KOOKY NORTH KOREANS FIND UNICORN LAIR!" And so on.
PyramidHead
Contributor
The DPRK has to be understood in context of the cultural background of Koreans generally, and the shared suffering they endured. Both play a role in their sense of loyalty to the state and to the lineage of Kim, who is not a dictator and not even the president (they have no president anymore; that role has been distributed among multiple people). Their reference to him as "leader" has a specifically Korean connotation that isn't the same as ours.
Incidentally, mass weeping at the death of a leader has a long tradition in Korea, stretching back to before there was a split between north and south. They do it in SK too, folks. This is all public information, but it's the kind of information that gets put in small print on page 5 as a retraction after the false version made front page news a week before.
Incidentally, mass weeping at the death of a leader has a long tradition in Korea, stretching back to before there was a split between north and south. They do it in SK too, folks. This is all public information, but it's the kind of information that gets put in small print on page 5 as a retraction after the false version made front page news a week before.
So is it just a coincidence that the Kims have been in power over 3 generations and ever since the Korean war ended? The people just love them so much that they keep voting them in with fair and democratic elections?
PyramidHead
Contributor
The position held by the Kims, and the government in DPRK generally, is guided not just by communist principles but also a strong dose of Confucianism, which places a high regard on familial piety. DPRK citizens are raised to treat the whole of society as a big family, and the Kims, each of whom had successively LESS power than their predecessor, are regarded as paternalistic figures. They place a great deal of trust in this tradition, which is why they also expect Kim to honor the legacy of his family by being a good leader, as they have every reason to think he too was raised under the same Confucian-esque system of values. Kim is accountable to the people's assembly, which is the highest legislative body according to their constitution. The de facto head of state in the DPRK is currently Choe Ryong Hae, who was named President of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly of North Korea, on April 11, 2019, replacing Kim Yong Nam who had held the position since it was created in 1998 (incidentally about 20% of the population has the Kim surname).
As it turns out, most of the people just really, really appreciate what Jong Un's father did for them throughout the war and the period of turmoil afterwards, so the son has a lot of cultural credibility due to the ideology of society itself. What is characterized as terrified deference is just how Koreans express gratitude and admiration, and isn't too dissimilar to other Asian expressions of such (like bowing, singing songs, etc.). It wasn't total buy-in right away, though; when Jong Un took power in (I think) 2012 or 2013, there were factions that didn't like it, and they had demonstrations and made pamphlets and did graffiti. There was an NPR article about this at the time, based on testimony from some people who left the country.
I've read a little about tourism in North Korea. Would you go?
From what I've read they assign you a "guide" who makes sure you see only what they want you to see, and that they put on a bit of a show for you to give you a false impression. Is that also lies?
From what I've read they assign you a "guide" who makes sure you see only what they want you to see, and that they put on a bit of a show for you to give you a false impression. Is that also lies?
PyramidHead
Contributor
I would love to go, actually, and the tour chaperones are meant as a convenience for the visitor more than anything else. The Koreans in DPRK don't hate foreigners, and are happy to talk to them if the conversation is being engaged in good faith and out of genuine curiosity. If it's some idiot in a suit asking about unicorns, they tend to get irritated. But the chaperones aren't there 24/7 and are usually just workers who want to make sure tourists get a good impression of where they live and work. Given how different things are compared to here, and given how much crap is made up about them, I would say that's not a bad idea.
The more money North Korea has the more money the world will have to spend to maintain peace.
Reality check time:
The chaperones aren't 24/7 because part of the time you're in your hotel room. Leaving without your chaperone isn't permitted.
And whether people will talk to you is irrelevant, the issue is whether they would tell the truth. With a chaperone present of course they wouldn't!
The only places you see mandatory chaperones are places where very repressive governments either want to hide facts from tourists or want to hide facts from locals.
Or perhaps both.
Well, if you or any of the other members of the North Korea fan club we got here do go there be sure to grab me one of those Great Leader posters you see everywhere.
Now now. Being sentenced to 15 years hard labour, in a trial lasting less than an hour, for stealing a poster is totally consistent with not being a brutal dictatorship. Though admittedly it's really unfortunate he became the living dead by eating a bad Snickers bar and so North Korea had to mercifully send him home.
Until this thread, I didn't know anybody who was a NK fanboy. My world's a little bit sadder now.
I am quite enjoying this look into another mindset. Please Pyramidhead, tell us more.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
And just remember, PyramidHead claims to be an anarchist.