Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Jimmy Higgins]

Now I must stress that this is not as important as petty rockets being flung into Israeli air space. Or one-third as big of a deal as billions of illegal teens coming to the US from Central America, but apparently a plane carrying nearly 300 people was downed over Ukraine today. Who is responsible is unknown. The plane was allegedly flying at 30,000 feet which indicates a substantial rocket system was needed to do this. Russians and Ukrainians assure the world neither were responsible.

link

My gut says Obama is to blame, but the "drive-by media" won't hold him to the fire. He must be impeached!

 

[Derec]

Looks like it was pro-Russian rebels who are responsible. They were given SAM missiles by Putin and bragged about shooting down Ukrainian planes already.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders, why the fuck was the plane flying over Ukranian airspace in the first place?

It's a hot war zone where combatants have been shooting down planes for at least a couple of weeks. Shouldn't standard operating procedure be to add a couple of hours to the flight time to loop around the area?

 

[barbos]

Looks like it was pro-Russian rebels who are responsible. They were given SAM missiles by Putin and bragged about shooting down Ukrainian planes already.

Even if Putin did that (which he did not and really has no need to do that because separatists have plenty) these SAM missiles do not work at such altitude. As for separatists they as I said have plenty of portable SAMs which are low altitude stuff like stingers which is the only thing they need. As for Ukraine Army it's not the first time they shoot civilian plane.
And prior to this, Ukrainians were blaming russian airforce for downing 2 ukrainian military planes which rebels said they did it instead. So It is quite possible that Ukrainians were hunting down imaginary russian planes and shot that Boeing instead.

 

[Derec]

Looks like it was pro-Russian rebels who are responsible. They were given SAM missiles by Putin and bragged about shooting down Ukrainian planes already.

Even if Putin did that (which he did not and really has no need to do that because separatists have plenty) these SAM missiles do not work at such altitude. As for separatists they as I said have plenty of portable SAMs which are low altitude stuff like stingers which is the only thing they need.

The SAM system in question, the Buk, definitely can handle those altitudes. Very different animal from "stuff like stingers" which suggests intimate Mother Russia/Putin involvement with these rebels.

As for Ukraine Army it's not the first time they shoot civilian plane.

What would have been the first time? I know Soviets shot down a Korean airliner in 1983 but I know of no airliners shot by the "Ukraine Army".

And prior to this, Ukrainians were blaming russian airforce for downing 2 ukrainian military planes which rebels said they did it instead. So It is quite possible that Ukrainians were hunting down imaginary russian planes and shot that Boeing instead.

Anything to deflect the blame from Putin I guess.
I find it much more likely that a bunch of separatist yahoos given an advanced SAM system mistook an airliner for an Ukrainian cargo plane and shot it down that that well trained Ukrainian air force pilots mistook an airliner for fighter jets.

 

[funinspace]

Ah...nothing like 'talk free of thought' digging in sides before any facts can be known...

 

[Derec]

While I don't want to sound like a dick or take any of the blame for this mass murder off of Putin's shoulders, why the fuck was the plane flying over Ukranian airspace in the first place?

It's a hot war zone where combatants have been shooting down planes for at least a couple of weeks. Shouldn't standard operating procedure be to add a couple of hours to the flight time to loop around the area?

Apparently they thought that civilian aircraft will not be aimed at. Malaysia Airlines was not the only one, as airline after airline have announced that they will avoid the area in the aftermath of this.

 

[barbos]

Even if Putin did that (which he did not and really has no need to do that because separatists have plenty) these SAM missiles do not work at such altitude. As for separatists they as I said have plenty of portable SAMs which are low altitude stuff like stingers which is the only thing they need.

The SAM system in question, the Buk, definitely can handle those altitudes.

Rebels don't have it, don't need it, and I doubt they would have been able to use it if they somehow got it.

As for Ukraine Army it's not the first time they shoot civilian plane.

What would have been the first time?

in around 2001 they shoot Russian plane going from Israel.

And prior to this, Ukrainians were blaming russian airforce for downing 2 ukrainian military planes which rebels said they did it instead. So It is quite possible that Ukrainians were hunting down imaginary russian planes and shot that Boeing instead.

Anything to deflect the blame from Putin I guess.

anything to blame Putin I guess

I find it much more likely that a bunch of separatist yahoos given an advanced SAM system mistook an airliner for an Ukrainian cargo plane and shot it down that that well trained Ukrainian air force pilots mistook an airliner for fighter jets.

Well, they don't have advanced SAM systems.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Apparently they thought that civilian aircraft will not be aimed at. Malaysia Airlines was not the only one, as airline after airline have announced that they will avoid the area in the aftermath of this.

Ya, that's my question - why would they think that and wait until now to avoid the area?

If I hear on the news that there are warring gangs shooting at white SUVs on Dundas St, I'm going to take my black Prius fifteen minutes out of my way and drive along the Queensway. I'm not going to say "Well, it seems they only intend to shoot at white SUVs, so I have nothing to worry about and don't need to take a detour". If someone's shooting at cars, I will keep my car out of the fucking area. I'm not going to wait until after one of the gangs accidentally shoots up a Ford Focus before avoiding the place.

How is "There are people firing missiles at planes around there" not sufficient reason in and of itself to fly a loop around the place instead of going over it?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ah...nothing like 'talk free of thought' digging in sides before any facts can be known...

Such as confirming it wasn't an honest crash and was actually shot down?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Rebels don't have it, don't need it, and I doubt they would have been able to use it if they somehow got it. in around 2004 If I remember correctly they shoot Russian plane going to Israel. anything to blame Putin I guess Well, they don't have advanced SAM systems.

Where are you getting your information?

 

[barbos]

Rebels don't have it, don't need it, and I doubt they would have been able to use it if they somehow got it. in around 2004 If I remember correctly they shoot Russian plane going to Israel. anything to blame Putin I guess Well, they don't have advanced SAM systems.

Where are you getting your information?

Which information?

 

[barbos]

Apparently they thought that civilian aircraft will not be aimed at. Malaysia Airlines was not the only one, as airline after airline have announced that they will avoid the area in the aftermath of this.

Ya, that's my question - why would they think that and wait until now to avoid the area?

If I hear on the news that there are warring gangs shooting at white SUVs on Dundas St, I'm going to take my black Prius fifteen minutes out of my way and drive along the Queensway. I'm not going to say "Well, it seems they only intend to shoot at white SUVs, so I have nothing to worry about and don't need to take a detour". If someone's shooting at cars, I will keep my car out of the fucking area. I'm not going to wait until after one of the gangs accidentally shoots up a Ford Focus before avoiding the place.

How is "There are people firing missiles at planes around there" not sufficient reason in and of itself to fly a loop around the place instead of going over it?

I think it's responsibility of the state to close their space for air travel.
If Ukrainian government knew it was dangerous (which they now claim they knew) they should have closed their airspace.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Which information?

All the info that I see states that the rebels have the Buk system (supplied by russia) while Ukraine does not. The Buk goes up to 71,000 feet. You are saying the opposite. What need are you watching?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, that's my question - why would they think that and wait until now to avoid the area?

If I hear on the news that there are warring gangs shooting at white SUVs on Dundas St, I'm going to take my black Prius fifteen minutes out of my way and drive along the Queensway. I'm not going to say "Well, it seems they only intend to shoot at white SUVs, so I have nothing to worry about and don't need to take a detour". If someone's shooting at cars, I will keep my car out of the fucking area. I'm not going to wait until after one of the gangs accidentally shoots up a Ford Focus before avoiding the place.

How is "There are people firing missiles at planes around there" not sufficient reason in and of itself to fly a loop around the place instead of going over it?

I think it's responsibility of the state to close their space for air travel.
If Ukrainian government knew it was dangerous (which they now claim they knew) they should have closed their airspace.

That's not a reply that's related to the question ... and it's an especially hypocritical thing to post immediately after chastising someone else for finding a way to blame the Russians for it, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

Right now, all the airlines are saying that they're going to fly around the area, so they clearly have the ability to make this decision on their own and don't need to wait for somebody to close the airspace. I don't get how the information available to them before this happened was not sufficient in and of itself to have had them make that decision a couple of weeks ago.

 

[repoman]

This might be what happened:

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/

Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin, wrote: "We did warn you — do not fly in our sky."

He wrote in his VK.com post that “a plane has just been downed somewhere around Torez, it lays there behind the 'Progress' mine,” referring to the mining town of some 80,000 people.

“And here is the video proving another 'bird' falling down,” he continued. “The bird went down behind a slagheap, not in a residential district. So no peaceful people were injured,” Girkin wrote, adding that there is also information about a Ukrainian military plane shot down.

Girkin published the original boasting post, which has since been deleted, right after the plane went down — before he knew it was a commercial jetliner.

At least it is much more probable than anything being reported on CNN.

 

[barbos]

Which information?

All the info that I see states that the rebels have the Buk system (supplied by russia) while Ukraine does not. The Buk goes up to 71,000 feet. You are saying the opposite. What need are you watching?

All the Info coming from most likely guilty party (Ukraine) states that.

Besides, have you seen that fucking Buk system? It is a 3 big trucks an it has to operated by a bunch of people who know what they are doing.
Regardless what you think of Putin he is not a complete idiot to give it to rebels.
So it's 90% ukrainian forces, and 9% rebels which somehow got a hold of the complete Buk system and somehow managed to use it.
and 1% Russians trying to shoot Ukrainian plane and hitting Boeing instead. But I am really too generous here, Russia does not need to do that.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

At least it is much more probable than anything being reported on CNN.

Well, to be fair, doesn't that pretty much apply to everything that anyone ever says anywhere?

 

[barbos]

I think it's responsibility of the state to close their space for air travel.
If Ukrainian government knew it was dangerous (which they now claim they knew) they should have closed their airspace.

That's not a reply that's related to the question ... and it's an especially hypocritical thing to post immediately after chastising someone else for finding a way to blame the Russians for it, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

Right now, all the airlines are saying that they're going to fly around the area, so they clearly have the ability to make this decision on their own and don't need to wait for somebody to close the airspace. I don't get how the information available to them before this happened was not sufficient in and of itself to have had them make that decision a couple of weeks ago.

What are you talking about?
Of course they (airlines) all now know that's fucking dangerous. But before that it was responsibility of the ukrainian government to make a call.
After all, they are the ones who are in control. If what they now say is true then they should have closed their air space the moment they learned that rebels have Buk.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's not a reply that's related to the question ... and it's an especially hypocritical thing to post immediately after chastising someone else for finding a way to blame the Russians for it, but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about.

Right now, all the airlines are saying that they're going to fly around the area, so they clearly have the ability to make this decision on their own and don't need to wait for somebody to close the airspace. I don't get how the information available to them before this happened was not sufficient in and of itself to have had them make that decision a couple of weeks ago.

What are you talking about?
Of course they (airlines) all now know that's fucking dangerous. But before that it was responsibility of the ukrainian government to make a call.
After all, they are the ones who are in control. If what they now say is true then they should have closed their air space the moment they learned that rebels have Buk.

Is there somebody else who can give an answer to the question I'm asking instead of ignoring it to bitch about the Ukranian government?