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Nurse Refusing Quarantine

To me it's like knowing you shouldn't pick on someone you know is your lesser and who cannot harm you. What's the big deal? Why doesn't she use some tact and persuasion? Wouldn't she get more mileage by not appearing confrontational?
Well, apparently she's not interested in a political career. The 'milage' she wants is not to be under house arrest for no good reason.
And wouldn't 'picking on someone' describe those who want to quarantine her for no sound medical reason?
Why are they being confrontational? What's the big deal? They can point to the CDC and say 'experts have told us' and it's not their burden anymore. You'd think they'd get more milage by accepting the expert opinions.
 
And we're hearing that others willing to do what she did, go and treat patients and deal with the disease, are reconsidering because of having to return to a three week quarantine. If you really think you're making a difference it seems a small price to pay. My humble take.
Small price to pay. The price they pay is them going to the inflicted country and directly treating the people with the disease. Most likely, on their own time and dime.
 
I have a problem with quarantining someone who does not show symptoms. I also have a problem with someone saying "I'll come in when I think I am showing a symptom."
 
I don't think it's political theater. It may contain an element or human ignorance - what doesn't? - but even our military personnel who were there are having to undergo the same treatment. It's only prudent.

What intrigues me is that I would think a person of this nurse's capacity, someone who voluntarily goes there and helps, would understand, perhaps even be amused by what she would perceive as the irrational fear surrounding her. To me it's like knowing you shouldn't pick on someone you know is your lesser and who cannot harm you. What's the big deal? Why doesn't she use some tact and persuasion? Wouldn't she get more mileage by not appearing confrontational? She seems to have taken the same low road as her would be oppressors. She has an opportunity to make a difference and she's squandering it. If she's right she isn't getting through to me and I'm a reasonable person. Does she not recognize that people are concerned because there have been cases where people like herself actually had ebola?

And we're hearing that others willing to do what she did, go and treat patients and deal with the disease, are reconsidering because of having to return to a three week quarantine. If you really think you're making a difference it seems a small price to pay. My humble take.

A small price to pay as long as somebody else is paying it,

We are told (by our Canadian TV news) that polls conducted in the States show that 80% of Americans support the idea of routine quarantine for returning health workers. Sad, the amount of ignorance and stupidity. I suppose Christie was responding to that potential voter's demand. More stupidity. ? can we call this "populism" or "Mob rule"?
 
I don't think it's political theater.
I think it is because the GOP already has the antecedent of having exploited irrational fear to gain public support when the Bush administration launched its campaign to justify the US military intervention in Irak. It worked, did it not? The mantras of "mushrooms above US cities" evoking nuclear weapons supposedly made in Irak and susceptible to fall in the hands of Islamist terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda. It worked so well that even your Congress members freaked out and authorized that Irak fiasco. American voters become very vulnerable to politically orchestrated manipulation when fear has been induced in their minds.


It may contain an element or human ignorance - what doesn't? -
There is a huge element of ignorance at play. One which is not to be tolerated in a First World Nation like the US.


but even our military personnel who were there are having to undergo the same treatment. It's only prudent.
While you need to acknowledge the difference between civilians volunteering to go to the affected Western African regions and military personnel getting orders to be present in those regions.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...itary-isolation-troops-joint-chiefs/18108613/

As far as "prudent" is concerned, I will assume then that you would support placing in quarantine all and any US medical personnel who has been assigned to treating any Ebola infected patient in US medical facilities in the US.



What intrigues me is that I would think a person of this nurse's capacity, someone who voluntarily goes there and helps, would understand, perhaps even be amused by what she would perceive as the irrational fear surrounding her.
I am a health care worker and I do not find irrational fear to be amusing. And I certainly do not find any justified and rationally constructed reason to "understand" it.


To me it's like knowing you shouldn't pick on someone you know is your lesser and who cannot harm you. What's the big deal? Why doesn't she use some tact and persuasion? Wouldn't she get more mileage by not appearing confrontational? She seems to have taken the same low road as her would be oppressors. She has an opportunity to make a difference and she's squandering it. If she's right she isn't getting through to me and I'm a reasonable person. Does she not recognize that people are concerned because there have been cases where people like herself actually had ebola?
She was CLEARED from being Ebola infected. So was Mr Boyko still held under quarantine in his home in Connecticut. Are you embracing the notion that cleared persons are still to be held in mandated quarantine? What is next? That Ebola patients who were successfully treated and released (such as the most recent 2 US nurses) are to be considered suspicious and susceptible to be a vector for contamination. I recently read comments on Facebook which I responded to from one person who claimed that "they should never be allowed to have contacts with the public because we have no proof they are cured and non contagious". I had to dump clinically supported data on that person and other participants as to why those successfully treated and cured Ebola patients cannot be a vector for infection any longer.

And we're hearing that others willing to do what she did, go and treat patients and deal with the disease, are reconsidering because of having to return to a three week quarantine. If you really think you're making a difference it seems a small price to pay. My humble take.
Yet the head of the US branch MSF (Doctors Without Borders), disagrees with you :

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/31/us-health-ebola-usa-msf-idUSKBN0IJ2PR20141031

This US issued quarantine bit is profoundly affecting US MSF personnel volunteering in Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone. Of course it is quite easy for anyone who is in no way even related to MSF to give their "humble take". Do you even consider how it affects the morale of those actively involved in the fight against Ebola, contrary to you, not planted in front of their computers, but being on the front line of battling an epidemic? Oh, yes it is so easy to distance ourselves from those dedicated human beings and place on them the expectation that they ought to "pay a price" which is NOT even justified by the science related to Ebola.

To the famous quote "Liberty how many crimes have been committed under your name", I will add "Prudence, how many abuses have been committed under your name".

There should be NO price to pay especially when the science does NOT support the "price" in question to be "paid" by those volunteering health care professionals.
 
I have a problem with quarantining someone who does not show symptoms. I also have a problem with someone saying "I'll come in when I think I am showing a symptom."
Again, we are specifically discussing here health care workers and professionals who are already fully educated as to which symptoms to watch for and their degree. They are perfectly capable of self assessing relying on their medical training and acquired knowledge if and when they are developing any symptoms. They are perfectly capable of monitoring their vitals twice a day and reporting to the CDC their readings twice a day as mandated by the CDC. Placing them under an automatic quarantine is ludicrous and unnecessary. And again the science related to Ebola does NOT support placing under any quarantine or isolation measure individuals who have been medically assessed and cleared from Ebola infection.Which is now the case for this nurse, and Mr Boyko under a mandated home quarantine in Connecticut.
 
I have a problem with quarantining someone who does not show symptoms. I also have a problem with someone saying "I'll come in when I think I am showing a symptom."
Again, we are specifically discussing here health care workers and professionals who are already fully educated as to which symptoms to watch for and their degree. They are perfectly capable of self assessing relying on their medical training and acquired knowledge if and when they are developing any symptoms. They are perfectly capable of monitoring their vitals twice a day and reporting to the CDC their readings twice a day as mandated by the CDC. Placing them under an automatic quarantine is ludicrous and unnecessary. And again the science related to Ebola does NOT support placing under any quarantine or isolation measure individuals who have been medically assessed and cleared from Ebola infection.Which is now the case for this nurse, and Mr Boyko under a mandated home quarantine in Connecticut.
I don't doubt the professionals' ability to self-assess. I have a problem with the wisdom of reliance on self-assessment. Not only is there an appearance of a possible conflict of interest, but health professionals are human beings which means they are susceptible to self-delusion, etc.... If I lived near this nurse, I would prefer her to be checked out on an appropriate schedule by a disinterested 3rd party.
 
Again, we are specifically discussing here health care workers and professionals who are already fully educated as to which symptoms to watch for and their degree. They are perfectly capable of self assessing relying on their medical training and acquired knowledge if and when they are developing any symptoms. They are perfectly capable of monitoring their vitals twice a day and reporting to the CDC their readings twice a day as mandated by the CDC. Placing them under an automatic quarantine is ludicrous and unnecessary. And again the science related to Ebola does NOT support placing under any quarantine or isolation measure individuals who have been medically assessed and cleared from Ebola infection.Which is now the case for this nurse, and Mr Boyko under a mandated home quarantine in Connecticut.
I don't doubt the professionals' ability to self-assess. I have a problem with the wisdom of reliance on self-assessment. Not only is there an appearance of a possible conflict of interest, but health professionals are human beings which means they are susceptible to self-delusion, etc.... If I lived near this nurse, I would prefer her to be checked out on an appropriate schedule by a disinterested 3rd party.
If she is in denial about her symptoms, she would very likely die. It is in her best interest to not be self-deluding.
 
Again, we are specifically discussing here health care workers and professionals who are already fully educated as to which symptoms to watch for and their degree. They are perfectly capable of self assessing relying on their medical training and acquired knowledge if and when they are developing any symptoms. They are perfectly capable of monitoring their vitals twice a day and reporting to the CDC their readings twice a day as mandated by the CDC. Placing them under an automatic quarantine is ludicrous and unnecessary. And again the science related to Ebola does NOT support placing under any quarantine or isolation measure individuals who have been medically assessed and cleared from Ebola infection.Which is now the case for this nurse, and Mr Boyko under a mandated home quarantine in Connecticut.
I don't doubt the professionals' ability to self-assess. I have a problem with the wisdom of reliance on self-assessment.
Whereas as a health care worker myself, I have no issue with attributing to health care workers the quality of being individuals who can objectively self assess symptoms. Where I would not trust not medically educated persons, I certainly do when it comes to health care professionals such as skilled nursing providers (LPNs and RNs) and physicians or NPs.



Not only is there an appearance of a possible conflict of interest,
Please, explain. Taking into account that the ultimate motivational factor for those health care workers returning from Western Africa is that they already know that Ebola treated in its early stage when its symptomatic effect is only elevated fever means a higher potential to recover rather than dragging their feet into increasing symptoms leading to the emission of bodily fluids/secretions.


but health professionals are human beings which means they are susceptible to self-delusion, etc....
I am not sure such health care workers returning from Western Africa would be self deluded as to higher chances of successful treatment and recovery and curability based on early intervention versus waiting for severe symptoms. Can you explain how and why such informed health care workers would be "self deluded"?



If I lived near this nurse,
Are you under the impression that she would be a hazard to you based on living "near" her? What medically supported data can you submit confirming the transmittable property of Ebola being other vectors than direct physical contact with infected bodily fluids/secretions?


I would prefer her to be checked out on an appropriate schedule by a disinterested 3rd party.
Twice a day vitals and twice reporting of daily readings seems totally appropriate to me. What type of other "schedule" do you have in mind? Actually, those health care workers know that it is in their best interest and welfare to report elevated fever ASAP because they already know that an early intervention means an increase in chances of successful supportive care, full recovery and curability. Why would they compromise their own chance at full recovery and curability when they have directly observed the manner in which Ebola patients have died while those health care workers were on the front line of such horror?

Since you brought up "disinterested 3d party" as if such health care workers specifically designated as having returned from Western African affected regions are unaware of what their BEST interest is when it comes to preventing a fatal outcome with an early intervention. And a fatal outcome certainly not void of intense sufferings, meaning an agonizing process of death. Do you think they all carry a suffering death wish on their own person?
 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/health/us-ebola/index.html

Court ordered quarantine.
The temporary order, issued late Thursday, permits her to engage in "non-congregate public activities," such as walking or jogging, but said she must maintain a 3-foot distance from people. She is not allowed to leave the municipality of Fort Kent without consulting local health authorities.

Stupid CNN!

______________
http://time.com/3550960/ebola-quarantine-maine-kaci-hickox/
A victory for Kaci Hickox

A judge in Maine on Friday rejected the state’s attempt to forcibly quarantine a nurse who has been clashing with officials over her defiance of a voluntary Ebola quarantine, reversing a court order that briefly mandated she avoid public places and transportation.

The order came Friday, the Associated Press reports, following a temporary order Thursday. The state has been pushing the nurse, Kaci Hickox, to follow quarantine guidelines laid out by federal officials for people at “some risk” of Ebola.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/health/us-ebola/index.html

Court ordered quarantine.
The temporary order, issued late Thursday, permits her to engage in "non-congregate public activities," such as walking or jogging, but said she must maintain a 3-foot distance from people. She is not allowed to leave the municipality of Fort Kent without consulting local health authorities.
Oh dear... and again how that will be interpreted by members of the US general public still giving in to the belief that Ebola is airborne transmitted (such as it would be the case for active TB) : "ah...she has to maintain a 3 -foot distance from people because I was right...it is airborne...they lied to us...". Et voila!

The irony of it all is that she would be in no shape to even think about jogging or walking or engage in any physical activity if she were to reach the symptomatic stage of emission of infectious bodily fluids/secretions. Somehow the vision of a projected vomiting and diarrhea affected person seems rather incompatible with the idea of physical exercise. Let alone the more advanced stage of hemorrhaging observed in Ebola infected patients. (that is why Ebola is also known as hemorrhagic fever).

Is there any notion here that while the most infectious vector is present, such infected person would be having normally expected daily activities let alone engaging in physical exercise such as walking or jogging?
 
I don't doubt the professionals' ability to self-assess. I have a problem with the wisdom of reliance on self-assessment. Not only is there an appearance of a possible conflict of interest, but health professionals are human beings which means they are susceptible to self-delusion, etc.... If I lived near this nurse, I would prefer her to be checked out on an appropriate schedule by a disinterested 3rd party.
If she is in denial about her symptoms, she would very likely die. It is in her best interest to not be self-deluding.

I could make that claim about any sort of self-deception. In general self-deception is not in an individual's best interest.

It's widely recognized that ego-preserving self-deception is a common problem, but it's also widely recognized that this sort of judgmental bias is something which affects other people.

I don't think there's anything particularly onerous with having a dispassionate third party validate her self-assessment of symptoms - certainly nothing to the level of a 21 day quarantine. We know, though further observation showed it to not be enduring, that she had rationalized her initial high temperature with a number of causes that were unrelated to infection.
 
If she is in denial about her symptoms, she would very likely die. It is in her best interest to not be self-deluding.

I could make that claim about any sort of self-deception. In general self-deception is not in an individual's best interest.
In this specific case addressing (again) specifically health care workers returning to the US from their 4 to 6 weeks assignment in Liberia, Guinea or Sierra Leone, is there any belief here that they would dismiss via "self deception" the reality they have directly observed while treating Ebola infected and infectious patients? Again, that reality being their direct observation and knowledge that an early intervention based on the earliest detectable symptom being a temperature of 100.4 or 38C increases the chances of a successful supportive care/treatment, full recovery and curability? Why would such designated health care workers dismiss such reality when they know it is in their best interest to avoid a fatal outcome?

It's widely recognized that ego-preserving self-deception is a common problem, but it's also widely recognized that this sort of judgmental bias is something which affects other people.
"Ego-preserving self deception" would somehow be a "common problem" among those designated health care workers who have had DIRECT observation of the manner in which Ebola infected patients will die? Again, is there a belief here that such designated health care workers carry a suffering/agonizing death wish on their person?

I don't think there's anything particularly onerous with having a dispassionate third party validate her self-assessment of symptoms - certainly nothing to the level of a 21 day quarantine.
I do not have any issue with such designated health care workers being monitored under CDC guidelines/mandate. My issue is the belief that they should be subjected to a quarantine for the sole reason they have treated Ebola infected patients.


We know, though further observation showed it to not be enduring, that she had rationalized her initial high temperature with a number of causes that were unrelated to infection.
The actual cause she gave to her running a mild fever while being tested at the airport with a forehead scanner was that she was flushed due to being stressed and the kind of stress anyone arriving on an international flight (which I have experienced several times) is familiar with. You hustle through lines of folks going through customs and immigration. You are tired and jet lagged and guess what...your vitals will be affected. My temperature fluctuates on daily basis several times during the day. Usually higher late afternoon than early a.m. Because by late afternoon, I have been very active physically during the day. To mention that when her vitals were checked after she was transported to the hospital, her vitals were then back to normal. She tested negative twice for Ebola.

I will detail this a bit and sorry If I sound too "clinical " but it is necessary : Ebola symptoms starting with the earliest detectable symptom (fever grade of 100.4 or 38C) will increase as a confirmation of a fever prompted by the immune system response to an infectious agent. Increasing symptoms would include a constantly increasing fever grade (rather than return to normal grade), head ache, aches and pains in joints/articulations (result of higher increasing fever grade), extreme fatigue, to then progress to gastro intestinal related symptoms (diarrhea, vomiting) and final stage of hemorrhaging (internal and exterior). That rapid onset of increasing symptoms is proportional to the viral load. The higher the viral load, the more increasing symptoms will be.

For an individual whose fever grade returns to its expected normalcy and develops NONE of the subsequent symptoms cited above, it should be concluded that the initial elevated fever reading was not the product of or caused by an infectious agent such as the Ebola virus. If Ebola infected, the viral load will increase and certainly not cause the initial fever grade to return to expected normalcy.Instead, the viral load will increase in the blood stream while triggering added symptoms (cited above).

Both Mr Boyko and Ms Hickox have been placed under quarantine mandates DESPITE of the reality that they have developed no added symptoms and their temperature having returned to its expected normalcy. To add both with negative Ebola testing results.

Further, I do not recall the same political morons ordering a quarantine order on health workers returning from nations where they would have been treating active TB patients or exercising their profession in areas where TB is epidemic. Yet, TB is far MORE infectious than Ebola. Transmission of active TB will occur just by speaking, singing, sneezing etc... No panic in the US. No drastic measures imposed on those health care workers.And considering that some strains of TB are NOT responsive to pharma protocols, meaning no curability factor. Adding to that the reality that the US population is not BCG vaccinated. IOW none of you, good folks, have any immunity to TB.
 
I don't doubt the professionals' ability to self-assess. I have a problem with the wisdom of reliance on self-assessment.
Whereas as a health care worker myself, I have no issue with attributing to health care workers the quality of being individuals who can objectively self assess symptoms. Where I would not trust not medically educated persons, I certainly do when it comes to health care professionals such as skilled nursing providers (LPNs and RNs) and physicians or NPs.
Really? Medical professionals always act in the best ways when it comes to their own health issues? Hmmm. That conflicts with my limited and biased sample.
Please, explain. Taking into account that the ultimate motivational factor for those health care workers returning from Western Africa is that they already know that Ebola treated in its early stage when its symptomatic effect is only elevated fever means a higher potential to recover rather than dragging their feet into increasing symptoms leading to the emission of bodily fluids/secretions.
You are assuming a hyperrationality on the part of every health professional. I do not.


I am not sure such health care workers returning from Western Africa would be self deluded as to higher chances of successful treatment and recovery and curability based on early intervention versus waiting for severe symptoms. Can you explain how and why such informed health care workers would be "self deluded"?
I am not sure that every health professional is hyper-rational when it comes to their own lives. I don't have to explain why people act like people.



Are you under the impression that she would be a hazard to you based on living "near" her? What medically supported data can you submit confirming the transmittable property of Ebola being other vectors than direct physical contact with infected bodily fluids/secretions?
I am under the impression that if that person lived near me and I came into contact with her and she coughed etc...., it is possible I might get infected. Her assurance that she was not infected because she was self-monitoring would not be reassuring.


Twice a day vitals and twice reporting of daily readings seems totally appropriate to me. What type of other "schedule" do you have in mind?
I don't a particular one in mind. I would defer to the medical profession on that.
Actually, those health care workers know that it is in their best interest and welfare to report elevated fever ASAP because they already know that an early intervention means an increase in chances of successful supportive care, full recovery and curability. Why would they compromise their own chance at full recovery and curability when they have directly observed the manner in which Ebola patients have died while those health care workers were on the front line of such horror?
Because they are fallible human beings.
Since you brought up "disinterested 3d party" as if such health care workers specifically designated as having returned from Western African affected regions are unaware of what their BEST interest is when it comes to preventing a fatal outcome with an early intervention. And a fatal outcome certainly not void of intense sufferings, meaning an agonizing process of death. Do you think they all carry a suffering death wish on their own person?
Unlike you, I assume they are fallible human beings who are susceptible to the same failings and mistakes because they are human.
 
I am under the impression that if that person lived near me and I came into contact with her and she coughed etc...., it is possible I might get infected. Her assurance that she was not infected because she was self-monitoring would not be reassuring.

If it was that simple to spread ebola we'd be on the third or fourth wave of a global pandemic.
 
I am under the impression that if that person lived near me and I came into contact with her and she coughed etc...., it is possible I might get infected. Her assurance that she was not infected because she was self-monitoring would not be reassuring.

If it was that simple to spread ebola we'd be on the third or fourth wave of a global pandemic.
My impression is that CDC says that it is possible. Perhaps not probable, but then again, we are not talking about catching the common cold.

But, if a specific reference to a possible transference upsets your ability to comprehend the argument, then replace it with some other more "realistic" transferable mechanism.
 
But there would be a lot of "ifs" that need to come together for that to happen. The risk to the public is far less than the flu.
 
@Sabine apologies for the curt reply but I'm on mobile - will revisit later.

Do keep in mind that there were two temperature checks that were high before the normal reading. Not that this couldn't be caused by stress, but at the time (when she claimed it was also caused by stress) there was no way to know whether it would go up or down.

I think we're in agreement as far as quarantine is concerned.
 
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