Obama's role in the current Russia collusion crisis

[Harry Bosch]

If the Bernie/Nader or bust crowd would just make their vote count, we wouldn't have to rely on tricks to hamper the republicans agenda. I'm sorry, but voting or lack of voting has consequences.

I don't directly attack people who didn't vote for Gore or HRC. They lost because they didn't run good races (among other things). But it's incredibly galling for people to complain when democrats don't retroactively go after republicans that they don't like. If a person doesn't like a politician or their party, then vote against them. Man up! But don't expect others to try to rectify problems that you contributed to. Obama was a very good president. Compared to Trump, he will go down as a great president.

 

[Underseer]

But you Democrats have to explain why the law should apply to Trump and Pence when you refused to apply it to Bush and Cheney. I'm not going to expect this of Republicans because we all know they don't believe in the rule of law, but you?

Maybe because Trump and Pence and their posse are in power RIGHT NOW. They're committing their crimes now AND looking to the future, we don't see any reason to believe they won't continue to commit their crimes.

Yes, but Obama's refusal to prosecute Bush and Cheney back then is making things worse right now. That's kind of my point.

 

[Underseer]

Maybe because Trump and Pence and their posse are in power RIGHT NOW. They're committing their crimes now AND looking to the future, we don't see any reason to believe they won't continue to commit their crimes.

So, those in power should only be held accountable for their crimes if we think they are likely to commit them again? But if they get away with it, and they are out of power, oh well?

Exactly.

When Ford pardoned Nixon, he effectively told all future presidents that they could be as bad as Nixon and expect to not go to jail, and so we got Reagan with his Iran-Cobra scandal and a very similar scandal that involved espionage against the Carter campaign that was not unlike the Watergate break in.

By refusing to charge Bush, Obama was telling all future presidents that they could be at least as bad as Bush and expect to get away with it.

If we're not going too change heads of state when they commit war crimes, when are we going to charge them at all? Blow jobs but not war crimes? Is that our legal standard for holding powerful people to the rule of law?

 

[Underseer]

So, those in power should only be held accountable for their crimes if we think they are likely to commit them again? But if they get away with it, and they are out of power, oh well?

That seems to be the tradition.
Nixon got pardoned, Confederates got pardoned, Bush didn't get prosecuted, Bush didn't get prosecuted, Clinton didn't get divorced... As soon as Trump was elected he stopped shouting 'lock her up.' All Hillary's crimes seemed unimportant when she was out of the running. Until people started to scrutinize Trump, then suddenly let's talk about Hillary's criminal past...

If Trump resigns and retires to Mar A Lago, he'll probably be pardoned by whoever's left standing, king of the rubble. To 'move us on' past the shadow of this dark period of the nation's history.

Nixon should not have been pardoned. The Nixon pardon is probably the cause of all the corruption and constitutional crises during the Reagan administration. Ford should have been impeached for that pardon.

 

[Underseer]

He can be pardoned for anything that anyone tries to prosecute him for.
I would GUESS that any sitting president might pardon Trump for things he did AS president, with some justification about 'to protect the office' or 'out of respect for the big big chair in the oval office,' but the political feedback for pardoning anything else they find would probably be politically contraindicated.

So if they found wrongdoing by Trump (and Kushner, etc...) previous to November 2016 because of Mueller's investigation that would be interesting for prosecution down the line.

Didn't the Republicans bring Clinton before a grand jury over things he did proof to the presidency? Or was that only for the blow job?

 

[Keith&Co.]

So if they found wrongdoing by Trump (and Kushner, etc...) previous to November 2016 because of Mueller's investigation that would be interesting for prosecution down the line.

Didn't the Republicans bring Clinton before a grand jury over things he did proof to the presidency? Or was that only for the blow job?

His deposition was for things he did prior, i believe, but he was impeached for obstruction committed during his deposition, during his presidency. And the blowjob

 

[Underseer]

I don't directly attack people who didn't vote for Gore or HRC. They lost because they didn't run good races (among other things). But it's incredibly galling for people to complain when democrats don't retroactively go after republicans that they don't like. If a person doesn't like a politician or their party, then vote against them. Man up! But don't expect others to try to rectify problems that you contributed to. Obama was a very good president. Compared to Trump, he will go down as a great president.

Are you talking about me?

The decision to not prosecute Bush and Cheney for war crimes was an incredibly bad decision, and we will be feeling the consequences of that decision for a long time to come. It doesn't just affect things within this country, but also how we are perceived in the world. We prosecuted and executed Germans and Japanese after WW2 for doing more or less the same thing as Bush and Cheney. Were we wrong to prosecute them, or were we wrong not not prosecute Bush and Cheney? We can't have it both ways if the rule of law is going to mean anything.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I don't directly attack people who didn't vote for Gore or HRC. They lost because they didn't run good races (among other things). But it's incredibly galling for people to complain when democrats don't retroactively go after republicans that they don't like. If a person doesn't like a politician or their party, then vote against them. Man up! But don't expect others to try to rectify problems that you contributed to. Obama was a very good president. Compared to Trump, he will go down as a great president.

Are you talking about me?

The decision to not prosecute Bush and Cheney for war crimes was an incredibly bad decision, and we will be feeling the consequences of that decision for a long time to come. It doesn't just affect things within this country, but also how we are perceived in the world. We prosecuted and executed Germans and Japanese after WW2 for doing more or less the same thing as Bush and Cheney. Were we wrong to prosecute them, or were we wrong not not prosecute Bush and Cheney? We can't have it both ways if the rule of law is going to mean anything.

Buddy: I'm a democrat. I've fought against the republicans my entire life. Bush kicked our ass in two elections. Then Trump kicked our ass. To hear non democrats bitching about Bush or Trump is hard to take. If you don't like their actions, then join us in defeating them. Until then, you've got no right to bitch! Obama was a great president. His presidency reversed many of the wrongs that the republicans implemented.

 

[J842P]

Are you talking about me?

The decision to not prosecute Bush and Cheney for war crimes was an incredibly bad decision, and we will be feeling the consequences of that decision for a long time to come. It doesn't just affect things within this country, but also how we are perceived in the world. We prosecuted and executed Germans and Japanese after WW2 for doing more or less the same thing as Bush and Cheney. Were we wrong to prosecute them, or were we wrong not not prosecute Bush and Cheney? We can't have it both ways if the rule of law is going to mean anything.

Buddy: I'm a democrat. I've fought against the republicans my entire life. Bush kicked our ass in two elections. Then Trump kicked our ass. To hear non democrats bitching about Bush or Trump is hard to take. If you don't like their actions, then join us in defeating them. Until then, you've got no right to bitch! Obama was a great president. His presidency reversed many of the wrongs that the republicans implemented.

I cannot tell who you are talking about. It seems, you are talking to yourself.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Buddy: I'm a democrat. I've fought against the republicans my entire life. Bush kicked our ass in two elections. Then Trump kicked our ass. To hear non democrats bitching about Bush or Trump is hard to take. If you don't like their actions, then join us in defeating them. Until then, you've got no right to bitch! Obama was a great president. His presidency reversed many of the wrongs that the republicans implemented.

I cannot tell who you are talking about. It seems, you are talking to yourself.

I understand. But let me know when you see yourself in the mirror. Let's talk then!

 

[braces_for_impact]

One thing I wonder if Obama could have done better was to inform the American public much, much earlier about what was going on with the Russian meddling. I know we're all babies that cannot handle difficult truths, and I know their concern was that Republicans would shout to holy hell that the Obama administration was trying to influence the election, but the people had a right to know this, and we're certainly suffering from a lot of fallout from this decision, I think. Especially once it became bad enough that Obama had to use the "red phone" to contact Moscow and tell them to cut it out. He should have dealt with the situation much more quickly and forcefully, and brought all intelligence evidence to bear upon those that can review the classified information and authenticate it. But he dicked around, and now here we are.