Obey me

[atrib]

Blame public education for anything ignorant you think I say.
You may have misunderstood me though. I was pointing out that you pay for stuff that magically happens all around you. Paying so much money for it is strange to me. Maybe even ignorant. Intentional ignorance, to me, is digging through your pockets for dirty pieces of paper just to pay for a bottle of water. I think I pad $400 for the right to access Earths water and electricity last month. The right to be warm and hydrated. The right to use a shit pipe. Pretty expensive and pointless. That is intentional ignorance.

Stuff doesn't magically happen. Clean water does not magically find its way into your home through pipes that were magically implanted under our streets from water treatment plants that magically fell out of the sky. The shit from from your toilet does not magically clean itself before flowing into a river, nor does a wastewater treatment plant magically rise out of the ground to serve this need. The electricity does not magically flow into your home using wires and a whole bunch of other hardware that is needed to power your tv and refrigerator. Roads and bridges do not magically appear to make your commute faster and safer.

You have a choice. You can unplug your existence and go live in a cave somewhere, grazing on plants you grew yourself and lapping up water from a natural stream or collecting rain in tin cans. You don't have to be a part of civilization. But most of us choose to pay for services like clean water and electricity because the benefits to our lives are immeasurably larger than the costs typically associated with such conveniences.

 

[another1]

Stuff doesn't magically happen. Clean water does not magically find its way into your home through pipes that were magically implanted under our streets from water treatment plants that magically fell out of the sky. The shit from from your toilet does not magically clean itself before flowing into a river, nor does a wastewater treatment plant magically rise out of the ground to serve this need. The electricity does not magically flow into your home using wires and a whole bunch of other hardware that is needed to power your tv and refrigerator. Roads and bridges do not magically appear to make your commute faster and safer.

You're right in some realities, but in the ones that matter to my finances, you're drawing a picture that justifies the stamping boot. I draw all day, and every damn picture ends up looking like the same Goddamn boot, so I can't come off like I'm any better. You drew a prettier boot than I ever could. You almost made sense, if you're into that sort of thing. But a boot is still a boot, and the figures still don't add up.

 

[Underseer]

Stuff doesn't magically happen. Clean water does not magically find its way into your home through pipes that were magically implanted under our streets from water treatment plants that magically fell out of the sky. The shit from from your toilet does not magically clean itself before flowing into a river, nor does a wastewater treatment plant magically rise out of the ground to serve this need. The electricity does not magically flow into your home using wires and a whole bunch of other hardware that is needed to power your tv and refrigerator. Roads and bridges do not magically appear to make your commute faster and safer.

You're right in some realities, but in the ones that matter to my finances, you're drawing a picture that justifies the stamping boot. I draw all day, and every damn picture ends up looking like the same Goddamn boot, so I can't come off like I'm any better. You drew a prettier boot than I ever could. You almost made sense, if you're into that sort of thing. But a boot is still a boot, and the figures still don't add up.

You live in a society in which you benefit from the "boot" of government.

If you want to be mister independent, then go live in the woods by yourself, and make everything you need for yourself.

Otherwise, if you want to participate in society, that means paying taxes, so you can benefit from roads over which to ship your goods, and education systems to educate your employees and fire departments to keep your buildings from burning down and armies to keep away invaders and police to scare off the burglars and health inspectors to make sure your friends, family, and employees don't get poisoned from what they eat, etc.

 

[another1]

You live in a society in which you benefit from the "boot" of government.

Yes? I pay well over 400% more than is necessary for those exotic electrics they mine around the world. Same with the invaluable gasses they collect in those 500 trillion dollar balloons of theirs. The water... hell they gotta make a display of that as if it is an alchemical ritual, otherwise it won't be wet by the time it reaches my lips.

If you want to be mister independent, then go live in the woods by yourself, and make everything you need for yourself.

So you're saying I only have the right to live among you if I sell my body for their lavish electricity and water, which are what my living body is already made of?

The things my body is already made of to start with, Underseer. So that brings me back to a humiliating reality in which I do indeed pay to exist. I started paying with my fist sip of their rare, impossibly difficult to find water. Anyone who defends that insanity is frighteningly unprincipled.

When walking to the mailbox and tearing a piece of paper first made me aware of this, I was hesitant to share because it seemed inapproachable. Then it happened an exact month later. It happens all the time now, and I'd be crazy for not pointing it out. This hooker was begging for money outside Giant Eagle one time and my friend asked what the money was for. She was whacked out on crack or whatever and the only legitimate lie she could blurt out was "for my lectric". I didn't laugh inside at the time but it is almost funny now lol.

 

[atrib]

Yes? I pay well over 400% more than is necessary for those exotic electrics they mine around the world. Same with the invaluable gasses they collect in those 500 trillion dollar balloons of theirs. The water... hell they gotta make a display of that as if it is an alchemical ritual, otherwise it won't be wet by the time it reaches my lips.

So start your own coop to grow your own food, build your own power plant to power your home, build your own water treatment plant to get your own supply of clean water, a wastewater treatment plant to clean the sewage you produce, and build your own roads to take you anywhere you want to go. See if you can do it for less.

 

[another1]

So start your own coop to grow your own food

Food is everywhere. It even grows on trees. Why would I need to "start" something?

build your own power plant to power your home

Power plants are all over the place. I can smell one right now. No need to "build my own" because they're sitting right there, waiting to be used appropriately.

build your own water treatment plant to get your own supply of clean water

There seems to be no shortage of clean water in my area. It is raining right now, actually. All I need to do is steal a bucket from somewhere?

a wastewater treatment plant to clean the sewage you produce

Why this assumption that poop and urine are unholy plagues that can't be contained without selling my body for the cause?

build your own roads to take you anywhere you want to go

Roads are already there. My house is on one. Actually a street, but the ground is the ground. I don't think selling my body, just to have the right to experience gravity is a reasonable thing to ask me to do. The primeval fear that " I can't do it for less" makes me give everything I'll ever have to someone else. The numbers don't add up. The rent is too damn high, atrib.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Let's not blame the ancients who came up with these ideas - they lived in vastly different times - they lived under Kings. Democracy, free speech was unknown. Most people slogged thru life. A good King meant a relatively good life, a bad king meant a horrible life for many and that is what shaped their ideas of God.
Today, we ask youngsters about what they wanted to become when they grew up. We ask about their dreams - but back then most people subsisted on farming - there were few opportunities - people didn't dream
3 square meals a day was a luxury - a life without problems, violence was a good life and that is the basis for the concept of Heaven
Religions stepped in to tell people what they wanted to hear and since they couldn't deliver on their tall promises they were happy to tell them that all this grand magic land is theirs only after Death, but of course! Heaven is the longest running-scheme ever!
What is sad that millions of people of today fall for these easy cheap promises of an easy life awaiting them after death - all they have to do is follow the "right" God, convert to the "right" religion
Pathetic is the world that i use

 

[another1]

What is sad that millions of people of today fall for these easy cheap promises of an easy life awaiting them after death - all they have to do is follow the "right" God, convert to the "right" religion

If we're talking about the matrix structure of our whole world's reality being the fault of a God... All I can say is that if there is no God, you can only blame yourself for the structure of things. I don't think you can have it both ways. Blaming God for this is essentially worshipping it. An atheist mind isn't immune to anything we're talking about here, Ramsharaka. The only difference between and atheist and a theist, is tapping my space bar one time. They're the same word to me anymore, so no I really don't understand. But your complaint is as valid as mine. God is the most convenient evil to pick from when I need a good excuse to go out and prostitute myself for sips of water, yet the reason I'm taking it in every hole for some dirty tap water is simple. It does have to do with the type of mind state that allows a God to be utterly real, so I do totally agree with some of your interesting point.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Mistaking Obedience for Morality is what strikes me and frightens me most of religion. I just had a long thread on a Muslim board (Islamicboard.com) where I tried to make the point that morality is more than just obedience to power, and they were completely unable to grasp the concept. They dodged like maniacs to the point that I was starting to think that some fundamental psychological failure is at work here. These are people who really WOULD kill their brothers if God told them to, and call it good, because although it may seem bad on the face of it, God knows better than we do, and he's saying to do it, so it must be good for some reason we don't know.

 

[Random Person]

Mistaking Obedience for Morality is what strikes me and frightens me most of religion. I just had a long thread on a Muslim board (Islamicboard.com) where I tried to make the point that morality is more than just obedience to power, and they were completely unable to grasp the concept. They dodged like maniacs to the point that I was starting to think that some fundamental psychological failure is at work here. These are people who really WOULD kill their brothers if God told them to, and call it good, because although it may seem bad on the face of it, God knows better than we do, and he's saying to do it, so it must be good for some reason we don't know.

It seems to me that if you want to consider your self moral you must first have a list of morals and then you must obey them.

 

[Underseer]

Food is everywhere. It even grows on trees. Why would I need to "start" something?

build your own power plant to power your home

Power plants are all over the place. I can smell one right now. No need to "build my own" because they're sitting right there, waiting to be used appropriately.

build your own water treatment plant to get your own supply of clean water

There seems to be no shortage of clean water in my area. It is raining right now, actually. All I need to do is steal a bucket from somewhere?

a wastewater treatment plant to clean the sewage you produce

Why this assumption that poop and urine are unholy plagues that can't be contained without selling my body for the cause?

build your own roads to take you anywhere you want to go

Roads are already there. My house is on one. Actually a street, but the ground is the ground. I don't think selling my body, just to have the right to experience gravity is a reasonable thing to ask me to do. The primeval fear that " I can't do it for less" makes me give everything I'll ever have to someone else. The numbers don't add up. The rent is too damn high, atrib.

You are communicating these arguments over the Internet, which was created using oppressive government funding. You should show your independence by not using the Internet anymore. Build your own separate international computer network and do all your communicating there.

 

[another1]

You are communicating these arguments over the Internet, which was created using oppressive government funding.

True that. I'm using a wifi signal. Was wifi discovered or invented? It seems like the type of thing that has always been there. In that sense, paying for the stuff does make me feel a little exploited. Don't like.

You should show your independence by not using the Internet anymore.

I can justify paying for internet faster than I can justify paying for water and electricity. As far as I know I'm not already made of wifi. My cable "provider" drilled holes in my home with a slightly less painful bit.

Build your own separate international computer network and do all your communicating there.

I can barely afford to build a personal computer network. It wouldn't be realistic to go international. The technical skills necessary for that would be a burden anyway. My argument is more elemental in nature and it doesn't involve building things. It seems things are already built but they malfunction.

I'm already made of water and electricity so they should at least give me a family discount. An occasional gift certificate for a free shower would be a nice gesture. They cut no breaks. It would be different if utility companies weren't making billions a year, tax-free profit - while humans die of thirst every day. I wouldn't have much of an argument if that were the case. Thank you for your response.

 

[Underseer]

True that. I'm using a wifi signal. Was wifi discovered or invented? It seems like the type of thing that has always been there. In that sense, paying for the stuff does make me feel a little exploited. Don't like.

Just about every part of the technology you use owes something to government funding of science.

You should show your independence by not using the Internet anymore.

I can justify paying for internet faster than I can justify paying for water and electricity. As far as I know I'm not already made of wifi. My cable "provider" drilled holes in my home with a slightly less painful bit.

Ah, so after government spending makes something possible, then you are willing to pay for it?

Build your own separate international computer network and do all your communicating there.

I can barely afford to build a personal computer network. It wouldn't be realistic to go international. The technical skills necessary for that would be a burden anyway. My argument is more elemental in nature and it doesn't involve building things. It seems things are already built but they malfunction.

I'm already made of water and electricity so they should at least give me a family discount. An occasional gift certificate for a free shower would be a nice gesture. They cut no breaks. It would be different if utility companies weren't making billions a year, tax-free profit - while humans die of thirst every day. I wouldn't have much of an argument if that were the case. Thank you for your response.

The Internet exists because of government spending on research. You should not use the Internet because doing so makes you a hypocrite. You should build your own private international computer network, and you should not use any science that was funded by the government.

Good luck with that.

 

[Random Person]

Just about every part of the technology you use owes something to government funding of science.

You should show your independence by not using the Internet anymore.

I can justify paying for internet faster than I can justify paying for water and electricity. As far as I know I'm not already made of wifi. My cable "provider" drilled holes in my home with a slightly less painful bit.

Ah, so after government spending makes something possible, then you are willing to pay for it?

Build your own separate international computer network and do all your communicating there.

I can barely afford to build a personal computer network. It wouldn't be realistic to go international. The technical skills necessary for that would be a burden anyway. My argument is more elemental in nature and it doesn't involve building things. It seems things are already built but they malfunction.

I'm already made of water and electricity so they should at least give me a family discount. An occasional gift certificate for a free shower would be a nice gesture. They cut no breaks. It would be different if utility companies weren't making billions a year, tax-free profit - while humans die of thirst every day. I wouldn't have much of an argument if that were the case. Thank you for your response.

The Internet exists because of government spending on research. You should not use the Internet because doing so makes you a hypocrite. You should build your own private international computer network, and you should not use any science that was funded by the government.

Good luck with that.

I pay for the internet. Even if it didn't cost anything I am not willing to be subservient to the government in exchange for the connection.

 

[DBT]

We are all subservient to the Government. They are the biggest gang in town. They have a powerful enforcement arm in the police and army.

 

[Veritass]

Mistaking Obedience for Morality is what strikes me and frightens me most of religion. I just had a long thread on a Muslim board (Islamicboard.com) where I tried to make the point that morality is more than just obedience to power, and they were completely unable to grasp the concept. They dodged like maniacs to the point that I was starting to think that some fundamental psychological failure is at work here. These are people who really WOULD kill their brothers if God told them to, and call it good, because although it may seem bad on the face of it, God knows better than we do, and he's saying to do it, so it must be good for some reason we don't know.

It seems to me that if you want to consider your self moral you must first have a list of morals and then you must obey them.

Another interesting turn of phrase. You could have a list of rules, and declare as "moral" being obedient to those rules. You could have a list of values, and declare as "moral" adhering to those values (i.e. taking actions consistent with them). But I don't really understand what you mean by a "list of morals". Could you maybe provide your top ones, so I might understand what you mean?

 

[Random Person]

It seems to me that if you want to consider your self moral you must first have a list of morals and then you must obey them.

Another interesting turn of phrase. You could have a list of rules, and declare as "moral" being obedient to those rules. You could have a list of values, and declare as "moral" adhering to those values (i.e. taking actions consistent with them). But I don't really understand what you mean by a "list of morals". Could you maybe provide your top ones, so I might understand what you mean?

No. If you are having difficulty understanding what a list of morals would be then I have no interest in having a discussion with you.

 

[another1]

Just about every part of the technology you use owes something to government funding of science.

The water, electricity, gas... those are the things I meant by the way. I may have jumped the gun on air and the things in it. Exclude technology from my complaint for now. I will say that a hundred a month is high.

Ah, so after government spending makes something possible, then you are willing to pay for it?

The government you seem to adore is killing me on their prices. Utilities are what my body is made of. Why should I pay for my own body? That stuff they're pumping belongs to no one man. You're telling me that thousands of years ago someone filled a seashell with dirty lake water and started yelling "give me a blowjob for a drink of this"? And people did it? Fast forward to now in your seashell decorated bathroom while you sit on the throne. Make an offering and ponder why giving blowjobs for water has always been pardoned. Explained away with government and excused because people are lazy and would rather work to have water just to have water to drink at work.

Governments hoard water and even sand dude. That stuff isn't the property of a government just because someone scribbled temporary graffiti on an atlas. But sure let them assume they own something if it makes them feel better about things. Just don't ruin my life doling things out at criminally high prices. Things I am already made of? Come on now. Energy companies shouldn't even make a profit, past a few Dodge Rams for the managers and a vacation package here and there. They make enough to buy nations. They get so rich that money becomes an abstract object. I'm the one spending the money here.

I looked up my bodily worth in minerals and it was something like $14. If I refuse to pay, and die of exposure, dehydration or boredom - I get ripped off for $14. In the long run my body will be consumed by the same cocksuckers and I'll be owed $14. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[Veritass]

Another interesting turn of phrase. You could have a list of rules, and declare as "moral" being obedient to those rules. You could have a list of values, and declare as "moral" adhering to those values (i.e. taking actions consistent with them). But I don't really understand what you mean by a "list of morals". Could you maybe provide your top ones, so I might understand what you mean?

No. If you are having difficulty understanding what a list of morals would be then I have no interest in having a discussion with you.

As you wish. I am only trying to clarify what you mean by a list of morals. I most often use "moral" as an adjective, as does dictionary.com. The first definition of it as a noun is for morals like "slow and steady wins the race", which I assume is not what you are referring to.

If you are referring to things like the Ten Commandments as a list of morals, then I would disagree and say that this is just a list of rules, not a guide for being moral. I don't believe that morality can be encoded into a list of rules. It can be encoded into a list of values, such as sanctity of life, liberty, and property. So, again I ask, where would you start with your "list of morals"?

 

[Atheos]

As I've gotten older I've become more convinced of the inevitability of "Situational Ethics." Life is a journey filled with sometimes really tough choices. As a young man I lived in a black and white world were certain things were categorically wrong.

There were times when these rules just didn't apply. Violating them wasn't just a matter of convenience, it was truly the right thing to do.

I believe that if a person were threatening my family I would kill if the opportunity presented itself to save those I cherish. It is not a light thing to consider taking the life of another person and I fully believe this to be a horrible thing to do. Fortunately I've never been in that situation.